December 15, 2018, 07:32:11 PM

Author Topic: Who do you take?  (Read 1742 times)

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Offline dannobanano

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Re: Who do you take?
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2018, 04:46:29 PM »
I will need to re-watch Vander Esch. I remember was a beast vs. Oregon (Las Vegas Bowl)

I've read from more than one source where they compare him to Brian Urlacher.

Online RT

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Re: Who do you take?
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2018, 04:58:06 PM »
I'm still on the Vander Esch bandwagon.

Draft Scout has Landry and VE rated as the #2 - #3 OLB's (respectively), while NFL.com gives Landry a draft grade of 6.15 and Vander Esch a higher grade of 6.25.

To me Landry is an Edge only player, and while that has high value this year, VE has positional versatility in that that he is projected to be able to play both ILB and OLB. Plus, Landry may be at, or is near, his ceiling while VE projects to have a much higher ceiling than Landry.

Both are very good players and I would be happy with either, but my preference (if both are still available at #14) is Vander Esch.

I think the Packers are zeroed in on their guy and now are in smokescreen mode. I'm with you on being happy with either Landry or LVE and I do think it is one of the two if they don't trade out. Just can't get a feel if it is one or the other. 50/50

Offline ThatGuy284

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Re: Who do you take?
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2018, 07:42:36 AM »
Smith looks to be a great player, he just seems redundant to Martinez - who proved plenty capable last season.   I don't think you can have Martinez and Smith playing together and Smith may be an upgrade over Martinez...but how much?   If the Pack were to look at ILB early (which the team annually tortures me by not doing) I'd hope it was a player like Edmunds or Vander Esch, which seem a better fit alongside Martinez and would be a replacement of Ryan -which I wholeheartedly endorse.  They would also be potentially capable of filling in for Matthews and Perry during their inevitable missed games


Strictly from those players listed above - I'd go Edmunds, Davenport, James

I like Smith, Edmund's and Vander Esch, but to say you don't think Smith will be any better or add quality to the middle with Martinez there is just, well, I can't even describe how inaccurate that is. Smith was a star on a star-studded defense in the premier college football program on this planet. His game tape shows his ability, a lot more than Martinez college tape showed. If it weren't for so many QBs,  smith would be a top ten pick, very well still could be. Martinez had lots of tackles in a defensive system designed to herd the ball carrier to the MLB. Shocker. He still got beat to the edge by the faster backs in the league, and blew coverage on RBs a lot. He also looked lost in his own zone. Even if Martinez is as good as some think he is,  adding a player next to him in the middle who will be at least as good, if not better, isnt going to hurt your defense.

I thinks smith and Edmunds will be gone by 14. So this really is a non-issue. Vander Esch may be  a reach at 14 in this draft even though he is a good player. I personally think they will go with Davenport if he is there, simply because of his upside. Bob Fox's article about the draft and his ranking on the horizontal board is telling. Other guys in play at 14 are Josh Jackson and Vita Vea.

Like you said, both Edmunds and Smith should be gone by #14 so is probably a moot point, but...   

As I said, I think Smith could be a great player, I don't dislike him at all, and I don't disagree he could develop into a better player than Martinez.   Perhaps I just happen to like Martinez more than you and feel he's already more than serviceable.   Scour the interwebs and Martinez shows up in numerous articles mentioning him as a Pro-Bowl snub.   He certainly had a Pro-Bowl caliber season.   He's rated as one of the top ILB vs the run and I think he's more capable in pass defense than I think you might. (he did finish with the 4th most PD's among all LB).   Great against the run, certainly room to grow vs the pass (importantly an area Smith could excel at).  Maybe with the team playing a lesser % of base defense that pass defense difference is substantial enough to warrant an upgrade?   To gloss over his accomplishment as the leading tackler in the NFL by claiming it's a product of the system is a great disservice to his all-around play.   We've had a number of ILB's come through GB during Capers' tenure and only Hawk has at times looked as capable imo.   

So again, I like Smith as a player.  I just question whether he's a substantial upgrade over Martinez and that's enough of an upgrade to bypass pass rush talent for.  To your other point, he would however be a huge upgrade over Ryan while they play in base defense.   My concern there is Martinez and Smith are both undersized ILB in a 3-4 and I don't think that's ideal.   Both also lack the size/versatility to play OLB and both will struggle disengaging from blocks which is vital.  Martinez really surprised me with his play strength in this area so maybe it's not a valid concern?   Other 3-4 teams have played with two smaller ILB's like 49ers with Bowman/Willis or the Steelers this past year who I think played with Shazier/Williams so it can work.   

As you mentioned, Smith is a top 10 talent for sure - but I happen to think Edmunds, Davenport and James are as well.   The only change I would make to these selections is the possible swapping of Landry for James as my third option.


Offline WTX_Cheese

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Re: Who do you take?
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2018, 07:48:21 AM »
I'm still on the Vander Esch bandwagon.

Draft Scout has Landry and VE rated as the #2 - #3 OLB's (respectively), while NFL.com gives Landry a draft grade of 6.15 and Vander Esch a higher grade of 6.25.

To me Landry is an Edge only player, and while that has high value this year, VE has positional versatility in that that he is projected to be able to play both ILB and OLB. Plus, Landry may be at, or is near, his ceiling while VE projects to have a much higher ceiling than Landry.

Both are very good players and I would be happy with either, but my preference (if both are still available at #14) is Vander Esch.

After reading this a few days back, I went back and watched LVE. I too am firmly in his camp. I'm fine with taking him @14. He could be THAT good.

Offline PackerJoe

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Re: Who do you take?
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2018, 06:02:12 AM »
If the regime is smart they will trade up with TB or SF.  THis years number 1 and 5b(comp pick) and next years 3rd rd pick. 

I want Uhrlache, Lewis, kuechly palying ILB for us.  Draft Roquan Smith!  need talent and speed at ILB.  all the LB's on this roster are slow.  I'm glad they are looking at the kid from SW Miss St.  I want talent and speed at that position.  MArtinez showed great improvement, but he is a liability in pass coverage. Ryan is a good 3rd stringers, maybe Biegel does something this year.  TEgray Scales from Indiana would be a good pick in the 5-6 rd.


Online RT

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Re: Who do you take?
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2018, 08:14:23 AM »
If the regime is smart they will trade up with TB or SF.  THis years number 1 and 5b(comp pick) and next years 3rd rd pick. 

I want Uhrlache, Lewis, kuechly palying ILB for us.  Draft Roquan Smith!  need talent and speed at ILB.  all the LB's on this roster are slow.  I'm glad they are looking at the kid from SW Miss St.  I want talent and speed at that position.  MArtinez showed great improvement, but he is a liability in pass coverage. Ryan is a good 3rd stringers, maybe Biegel does something this year.  TEgray Scales from Indiana would be a good pick in the 5-6 rd.

Smith is a outstanding football player and would be a great addition to any team. The rest of the post seems uninformed, IMO. The 'kid from SW Miss St.', is Southeast Missouri State outside linebacker Kendall Donnerson the player you are refering to? If it is he does have speed, but he is an EDGE player and that talent has yet to show up on the field. Here is a scouts opinion,

Donnerson’s tape is nowhere near draftable in terms of his skill set, but from an athletic standpoint, his testing numbers are beyond rare for his size. Donnerson is a project that teams might not be willing to draft, but will be more than happy to stash on the practice squad as a PFA while they try and improve his technique and skill, hoping to unlock his athletic gifts. At this point, Donnerson is no more than a lottery scratch-off with the potential for a tremendous pay-off, but with the odds against it.

Martinez is a young acsending player who is reaching fringe Pro Bowl statis. He is part of the solution, not part of the problem. Biegel is an EDGE player who may get moved around in some packages, but is not an inside LB.

Tegray Scales is 6'0"/230 and ran 4.77/40 with a 2.77/20 split suggesting a lack of short area speed. Not only would he be the smallest LBer, he would be the slowest. Hardly the solution to your perceived problem.

Offline footballdad

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Re: Who do you take?
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2018, 02:24:16 AM »
I like Vander Esch at 14. He can play inside from day one and possibly morph into an edge guy at some point. Has the tools and should only get better.

I would follow it up with Lorenzo Carter in the 2nd, would even try to trade up if need be. IMO he is a guy who will be a better pro than he was in college once his role in the scheme of things is clearly defined.

These are two guys who would be a match-up nightmare especially considering that Daniels, Clark, and Wilkerson all are hard to handle one on one. Opportunities will be there for linebackers to make plays if they can beat the one on one. These two guys can.

Offline OneTwoSixFive

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Re: Who do you take?
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2018, 06:17:30 AM »
Roquan Smith vs Vander Esch.

Roquan doesn't have the size to play a 3-4 OLB. If he were going to play outside it would be as a Will in a 4-3 system. Therefore, if drafted by the Packers, he would play inside. Vander Esch is a big lnebacker at 6'4", 256 lb, three inches taller than Smith and 20 pounds heavier - that is big enough to play OLB in a 3-4 system. His speed (4.65 to Smith's 4.51) is enough for a guy his size.

So, do you value a coverage-type fast ILB over a bigger ILB with great measurables who CAN play OLB (though it would take some coaching). What the Packers usually prefer is pretty clear, they go with positional versatility, therefore Esch over Smith (for them, not every team will see it this way). The need for another (potentially high quality) pass rusher, is sufficient to tip the balance.
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