June 19, 2018, 02:32:57 PM

Author Topic: surprise! packers cornerbacks still suck  (Read 2921 times)

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Offline craig

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Re: surprise! packers cornerbacks still suck
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2018, 08:55:45 PM »
Thanks, that's not many. 

So, would you expect Ward, the Ohio State guy, to get to the Packers because other teams won't want somebody of his height?  And that the Packers should then pass on him, too, if given the opportunity? 

Offline craig

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Re: surprise! packers cornerbacks still suck
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2018, 05:06:31 AM »
Thanks, RT, didn't realize it was that few.  Good info. 

So, is it your view that Ward, the Ohio State draft prospect, is too short too succeed?  Or that regardless of his college film, that teams ahead of the Packers will all pass on him by virtue of his height?  (Combine height 5'10").  If his height enables him to still be sitting there at 14, would you still pass on him due to the 5'10"?  (Obviously depends on whom else is still there, I'm sure....)

Offline RT

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Re: surprise! packers cornerbacks still suck
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2018, 05:52:43 AM »
Thanks, RT, didn't realize it was that few.  Good info. 

So, is it your view that Ward, the Ohio State draft prospect, is too short too succeed?  Or that regardless of his college film, that teams ahead of the Packers will all pass on him by virtue of his height?  (Combine height 5'10").  If his height enables him to still be sitting there at 14, would you still pass on him due to the 5'10"?  (Obviously depends on whom else is still there, I'm sure....)

I wish I was qualified to tell you if he is going to be successful or not, I am not and neither is anyone else on chat forums around the internet. All we can do to help form an opinion is use the rules of probability, which we crudly did with the top 100 list. The Packers have a height and weight minimum for CB's, which I'm guessing is their own usage of those rules. In the list of guideline requirements I was given several years ago, the CB height reads "at least an eighth-inch of 5'11”. Guessing their is a story behind that line.

Ward measured officially 5'10 7/8" so he does meet the guideline from a height standpoint, but weighed 183 which is not. Do the Packers see him adding weight as he matures and that would allow for him to hold up better against physical NFL wideouts? Personally, I hope someone else takes him ahead of the Packers, a little too much gray area with him for my liking. IMO, the Packers are set to get a high caliber defensive player at 14 regardless and would prefer someone that is not an outlier. 

Offline carnival

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Re: surprise! packers cornerbacks still suck
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2018, 07:34:00 PM »
I can't believe we just drafted another cornerback in the first round it all starts in the trenches this stinks I am so mad

Offline ThatGuy284

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Re: surprise! packers cornerbacks still suck
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2018, 08:06:34 PM »
They picked up Wilkerson for the trench to play alongside Daniels and Clark.  That's a helluva base trio

Offline Shinesman

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Re: surprise! packers cornerbacks still suck
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2018, 08:41:30 PM »
They picked up Wilkerson for the trench to play alongside Daniels and Clark.  That's a helluva base trio

Now they have a linebacking corps of Matthew's, who has not been stellar for awhile now, Ryan, who is slow and cant cover, Martinez, who also cant cover and gets beat to the edge, and Perry, who every year has a major injury. So glad they passed on the best all around LB in the draft lol
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Offline craig

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Re: surprise! packers cornerbacks still suck
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2018, 05:24:11 AM »
I'm no expert, but I don't think Carroll's failure is proof that all corners who are an inch or two short are going to be disasters like he was.   Plenty of shorter corners in the league, and in league history, who have been REALLY good cover guys.  Carroll was not. 

I might rather come in an inch short and get a really quick, smart, change-of-directions guy who can really cover, and can really read receivers, rather than get a guy an inch or two taller who isn't smart and can't mirror.

I think you will be surprised to see how little success that smallish CB's have at the NFL level. We all remember the little guys that do succeed, the Darrell Green's of the world, but sadly for them the failure rate is very high. I went thru the top 100 rated CB's from a year ago and really only 2 were some what successful. Brent Grimes who is listed at 5'10"/185 was the 30th rated outside corner and Jourdan Lewis of the Dallas Cowboys who is listed at 5'10"/186 was rated 54th. Under 5'10" and their is a very small likelihood of success. Here is a link if you would like to do some digging for yourself.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2754252-nfl1000-ranking-the-top-outside-cornerbacks-of-2017-season

So Jaire is 5'10" (1/8) I think?  192?  Hmm...

Online OneTwoSixFive

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Re: surprise! packers cornerbacks still suck
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2018, 06:31:54 AM »

Now they have a linebacking corps of Matthew's, who has not been stellar for awhile now, Ryan, who is slow and cant cover, Martinez, who also cant cover and gets beat to the edge, and Perry, who every year has a major injury. So glad they passed on the best all around LB in the draft lol

You forgot Biegel who should start healthy this year, and Gilbert who looked like he could be a decent backup. Also Josh Jones, who can be that coverage ILB once he understands the system, he and Martinez cover the Packers needs at ILB nicely (and Ryan is solid as well, great instincts, just not a burner). Addd Montravius Adams to the D line now he is healthy. Add Mo Wilkerson to the line. Clark is entering his prime. Add in the defense is now run by Pettine, so it will not be like a Capers defense. Finally, add in a very talented corner who will probably play slot, but is not lost playing the sideleine. Apart from those 10 or so changes this year, yeah, the whole defense sucks  ::)
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Offline RT

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Re: surprise! packers cornerbacks still suck
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2018, 06:52:18 AM »
Well first off, it is the Packers choice and I'm 100% behind this young man and the Packers decision now.

Officially he weighted 196 pounds and measured 5'10 1/4" at the combine, compared to Ward weighing 183 pounds. That is 7-8% more body weight when battling for position, I think that is notewothy. His height is concerning when looking at the history there, but now is the time to be positive and look for the reasons he will be an outlier in that department.

Testing wise (4.38/40 - 6.71/ 3 cone - 3.98 short shuttle) his numbers are impressive, sub 4 second short shuttle is outstanding.       
 
If they had traded up for Ward, it would of felt like they pushed all in on trying to beat the odds, but this move has a feel of hedging their bet by get the 1st round pick next year. With that chip in their pocket, did they feel they could roll the dices on a bigger risk/reward pick? I did not believe they were serious about these shorter CB's in the pre-draft process, but they showed us they were. I'm good with one shorter CB, but hoping they don't collect a whole stable of them.

Offline ThatGuy284

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Re: surprise! packers cornerbacks still suck
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2018, 08:30:43 AM »
There are numerous standout DB's at or near Alexander's height  5102.   Chris Harris Jr is 5'9", Janoris Jenkins is 5'10", Brent Grimes is 5'9", Jason Verrett is 5'9 1/2", Antoine Winfield was 5'9, T.   Joe Haden is 5108.   Tyrann Mathieu is 5'9"    Our very own Sam Shields was 5106.    These are just a few names that came to mind that I looked up.   Each of them have been at or near the top of their positions and have played at Pro-Bowl levels

Some people need to let the ghosts of Terrell Buckley and Ahmad Carroll rest - it's been 15-25 years, time to let go.

I keep hearing things like Alexander has a "slender build" at 5102 and 196 lbs...but Josh Jackson is a "well built DB" at 6000 and...... 196 lbs.   Feel free to describe him as short but slender?

Alexander is "injury prone" and a huge injury risk after missing 5 games despite the fact he came back to play the final three regular season games and blew up the combine and his pro day - but Derwin James who missed almost the entire 2016 season after surgery for a lateral meniscus tear is not

Alexander needs time to develop and like most players, time to mentally learn the game,  but he is physical and aggressive and instinctual - all attributes that make up for 1/2" height.   Most analysts also feel he's well-suited for press-man which helps to throw off route timing and helps compensate for height disadvantages

Offline craig

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Re: surprise! packers cornerbacks still suck
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2018, 08:39:55 AM »
Hey, RT, I hope they know what they're doing and it works out.  A guy can talk about trade-values and positions-of-greater-need and lots of things, but ultimately it comes down to the players actually selected.  If Jaire proves to be an outstanding player, at a position of huge impact and acute team need, then it's fantastic, and to net a first-round-pick to play with next year besides, that's fabulous. 

Heh heh, I know you didn't EXACTLY say this, but I don't like what I inferred from your note about "risk" and "hedging", with the extra 1st-round being insurance chip they can use in case Jaire fails.  The prospect of spending yet another 1st next year on a secondary guy, because they kept whiffing in 2015 and 2018 selections there, doesn't appeal at all.  They really need to have hit on this pick, you can't stay near the top if you keep whiffing on high draft picks. 

I'm optimistic that he'll be good despite the shortness.  Several thoughts:
1.  We're packer fans, we always want to hope things will work out!
2.  Gute is the new commander.  I certainly want to hope he's not a dummy who's first major command decision is a blunder.  I very much want him to have some success and build at least a little bit of earned trust within the Packer fan base. 
3.  Alexander has been a cornerback.  I expect he'll be pretty much a plug-and-play starter, ready right away.  Much to learn for anybody, but having a play-now rather than a developmental guy is nice.  And I think that covering is kind of covering; it's not like trying your best to mirror a receiver is suddenly a novel skillset in the pros.
4.  As you note, Alexander isn't tall, but he's not skinny.  At 196 pounds, that's reasonably strong, same as Randall was, for example.
5.  Alexander has pretty long arms.  Shortness of head is one thing; but it's the arms and hands that bat balls away and get in receivers faces.  Alexander's arms are 31-1/8, and hands 9-1/4.  (Randall was 30-1/4 and 8-3/4).  So, I'm thinking that at 5'11" 196 nobody was complaining that Randall was too short for corner or was physically unqualified.  If Alexander's arms and hands enable him to play as tall or taller than Randall, I'm not sure he's too short.  Hopefully he is that outlier.
6.  Gute may be a dummy. But after a career of scouting under Wolf's and Ted's height-minima, he ought to be aware of the logic and the stats.  If he doesn't understand or is unaware, it's kind of scary to think he's too ignorant to know.  So I'd like to think he was fully cognizant of the height considerations, but perhaps still had intelligent reason to think that Alexander will be good anyway. 
7.  Other than the height, Jaire's combine stuff is kinda awesome. 
8.  By scouting reports, the guy seems like an engaged tackler and a high energy, highly competitive guy.  So, not sure his height is going to kill him as a tackler or causes him to play scared. 
9.  I know lots of posters were pretty fired up for the tall athletic ILB (Edmunds and Vander Esch), but both would have needed to be re-applied somewhat.  (Don't think people loved them strictly to play traditional ILB....).  And many were fired up for James, to be kind of a versatility-man-safety who can be used creatively.  And some (like New Orleans, obviously) really liked Davenport.  But I kinda feel like each of those types of guys would have needed some time and development to get used to the NFL level, or to adapt to new roles and new utilizations of their talents.  I think there is perhaps a certain efficiency to drafting Alexander, a cornerback who covers receivers really well, to play NFL cornerback and to cover receivers really well. 
10.  Back to Packer scouting:  Packers paid a significant price to move back up to get him.  There were other corners and interesting players left; Vikings got Hughes after the Packers pick.  So, they may have had a chance to get a very promising corner without moving up, or without moving up as far or as expensively.  But they did; I think the price they paid to move up, given how many other acute needs they have and how nice it would have been to be able to keep their 3rd rounder to snag a top-80 guy, implies they really liked Alexander, and had him at a different level from Hughes or Oliver or whomever, despite the height.  Obviously they may be wrong dummies.  But I'm hopeful that they aren't, that they know what they are doing, and that Alexander is going to be a good player for the Packers right out of the box, and for many years. 
11.  Haven't read/studied enough.  Is he supposed to be a smart guy, leader type?  Or no?  Could really use a smart guy back there. 

Offline ricky

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Re: surprise! packers cornerbacks still suck
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2018, 10:15:55 AM »
Defense wins championships? Last season, the Patriots ended up with the league's best offense, and the league's 29th ranked defense. And, if Belichick hadn't benched Butler in the SB, they well might have won it all last year. So, when we're talking about a "championship level" defense, exactly how good do you really need to be?
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Offline craig

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Re: surprise! packers cornerbacks still suck
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2018, 10:48:31 AM »
Ricky, nice case with Patriots example.   NO contradiction between 29th-ranked defense and SB-caliber, league-championship-level defense.   

A championship-level defense needs to be good enough so that your offense can score more than your defense allows. 

As the Packers continue to spend all of their draft resources on defense, with the wholesome intention of assembling a SB-caliber defense, they risk letting the offense continue to erode.  As it becomes harder and rarer to score 30 points, you make it harder for the defense to perform at a SB-caliber level. 

I'm no scout.  But I'll have no philosophical complaint if they select am exciting receiver tonight, and once again defer on edge rusher.  If they could somehow cobble together a great offense, it's a lot easier to assemble a SB-caliber defense. 

Offline Divot

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Re: surprise! packers cornerbacks still suck
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2018, 09:42:36 PM »
Beagle should be a player this year as well as Montavious Adams.  It is like we get two picks from last year in the mix this year.  And, remember ARod didn't get a chance to play with our new running backs.  Throw in Graham and we could be ok.   I would like to get another olinemen thou

Online TAYLORBOY

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Re: surprise! packers cornerbacks still suck
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2018, 04:00:16 AM »
I think sucking CB's at 1265 is history...

No more safeties trying to play CB

No more basketball players who wanted to play football

Good CB's are born to cover....and we have some good CB's