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General Category => Rant and Vent => Topic started by: mtsportsfan on September 28, 2017, 04:39:05 PM

Title: Not watching game.
Post by: mtsportsfan on September 28, 2017, 04:39:05 PM
I'm 54 yrs old soon to be 55. Have not missed a game since I was in the military. So disappointed in all of this about kneeling for the anthem. Rodgers is 1000 times smarter than me but he is wrong , the flag and the anthem is all about the military and the people who served and died  so that people can have freedom of speech and the freedom  of everyday life in the USA. So this week and and starting tonight I will boycott all nfl  games on television this weekend. This is really going to be hard, but this is my small stand. Go pack go
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Kepler on September 28, 2017, 05:15:10 PM
Ok
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: The GM on September 30, 2017, 03:27:00 PM
I'm 54 yrs old soon to be 55. Have not missed a game since I was in the military. So disappointed in all of this about kneeling for the anthem. Rodgers is 1000 times smarter than me but he is wrong , the flag and the anthem is all about the military and the people who served and died  so that people can have freedom of speech and the freedom  of everyday life in the USA. So this week and and starting tonight I will boycott all nfl  games on television this weekend. This is really going to be hard, but this is my small stand. Go pack go

Good for you Mtsportsfan.   I appreciate your values.

Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: claymaker on October 06, 2017, 05:27:55 PM
I'm 54 yrs old soon to be 55. Have not missed a game since I was in the military. So disappointed in all of this about kneeling for the anthem. Rodgers is 1000 times smarter than me but he is wrong , the flag and the anthem is all about the military and the people who served and died  so that people can have freedom of speech and the freedom  of everyday life in the USA. So this week and and starting tonight I will boycott all nfl  games on television this weekend. This is really going to be hard, but this is my small stand. Go pack go

I'm on the side that it means different things for different people, or it can mean nothing at all.

I personally find it disrespectful to the men and women in uniform and everyone that has served. Which is really my only gripe about the whole situation. Like those aren't civilians escorting our flag to midfield. So, not respecting the flag and anthem is directly insulting to them and indirectly to everyone else.

The sad part is people in America have no idea how lucky they are to live here. It is literally the only haven left for free thought, free speech, and free expression. Check out guys like Jordan Peterson on Canada and bill 316, that was a pretty big deal. Countries like the UK, Canada, Australia and Switzerland are all "under the thumb."

I could care less what NFL athletes think or do. They all have an over inflated ego that makes them think the world is constantly watching them for direction, it's just too bad it's actually half true.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 06, 2017, 06:03:51 PM
I'm 54 yrs old soon to be 55. Have not missed a game since I was in the military. So disappointed in all of this about kneeling for the anthem. Rodgers is 1000 times smarter than me but he is wrong , the flag and the anthem is all about the military and the people who served and died  so that people can have freedom of speech and the freedom  of everyday life in the USA. So this week and and starting tonight I will boycott all nfl  games on television this weekend. This is really going to be hard, but this is my small stand. Go pack go

I'm on the side that it means different things for different people, or it can mean nothing at all.

I personally find it disrespectful to the men and women in uniform and everyone that has served. Which is really my only gripe about the whole situation. Like those aren't civilians escorting our flag to midfield. So, not respecting the flag and anthem is directly insulting to them and indirectly to everyone else.

The sad part is people in America have no idea how lucky they are to live here. It is literally the only haven left for free thought, free speech, and free expression. Check out guys like Jordan Peterson on Canada and bill 316, that was a pretty big deal. Countries like the UK, Canada, Australia and Switzerland are all "under the thumb."

I could care less what NFL athletes think or do. They all have an over inflated ego that makes them think the world is constantly watching them for direction, it's just too bad it's actually half true.




 clap) goodpost hatsoff)
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Toddfather on October 06, 2017, 09:14:33 PM
Don't you have a meme for this?
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on October 07, 2017, 02:07:56 AM
The sad part is people in America have no idea how lucky they are to live here. It is literally the only haven left for free thought, free speech, and free expression. Check out guys like Jordan Peterson on Canada and bill 316, that was a pretty big deal. Countries like the UK, Canada, Australia and Switzerland are all "under the thumb."

America the only haven left ? Please. UK under the thumb ?  Under whose thumb ? Plenty of free speech and free expression here, as long as you don't resort to the 'isms Racism, Sexism, etc. Free thought is allowed everywhere, EVERYONES thoughts are their own. I don't think you have much idea what it is to live in a country outside your own, it's probably just that you are comfortable there because it is what you know, where you were brought up.

I'll pop a stastistic back at you.
Murders in all of England and Wales combined last year, 573, in a population of 58 million (less than one in a 100,000).
Murders in Chicago last year, 762 in a population of 2.7 million (one in just over every 3,500).
That is a stastistic that inspires personal terror, more than freedom.

I actually have no problem with you applauding America as a free country, just don't assume nowhere else is. While nowhere else is exactly like the US (all countries are unique in their own way), there are plenty of places in the world outside the US, that have a pretty free society.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: claymaker on October 07, 2017, 06:32:31 AM
The sad part is people in America have no idea how lucky they are to live here. It is literally the only haven left for free thought, free speech, and free expression. Check out guys like Jordan Peterson on Canada and bill 316, that was a pretty big deal. Countries like the UK, Canada, Australia and Switzerland are all "under the thumb."

America the only haven left ? Please. UK under the thumb ?  Under whose thumb ? Plenty of free speech and free expression here, as long as you don't resort to the 'isms Racism, Sexism, etc. Free thought is allowed everywhere, EVERYONES thoughts are their own. I don't think you have much idea what it is to live in a country outside your own, it's probably just that you are comfortable there because it is what you know, where you were brought up.

I'll pop a stastistic back at you.
Murders in all of England and Wales combined last year, 573, in a population of 58 million (less than one in a 100,000).
Murders in Chicago last year, 762 in a population of 2.7 million (one in just over every 3,500).
That is a stastistic that inspires personal terror, more than freedom.

I actually have no problem with you applauding America as a free country, just don't assume nowhere else is. While nowhere else is exactly like the US (all countries are unique in their own way), there are plenty of places in the world outside the US, that have a pretty free society.

Well, I didn't say it was the only one. My point was they are the only one where it is the law of the land and they don't compromise it for anyone. We are having this battle of what speech is protected. Also, those "isms" are not illegal, they're just extremely offensive.

It's the "isms" you referred to that are being misrepresented and thrown around by, buzz word spoiler alert, demagogues. Those "isms" have lost their meaning by being thrown around so childishly. Anyone who actually uses them in a debate has no place in the debate because they are poorly prepared, uninformed, and ignorant.

Pretty sure the UK is big on "Islamaphobia." https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9741/islamization-britain - It's not all sunshine and rainbows mate. There's plenty of other articles that support this and other things not mentioned that shine a negative spotlight here. Just don't use Google to search for them. Go ahead and draw a picture of Muhammed in front of a Mosque in your country, I dare you.

Canada's bill 316, that almost got passed, made it illegal to call someone a name they didn't like. Specifically it was gender specific pronouns, but the language of the bill did make it somewhat open.

"that have a pretty free society." - This is my main point. America isn't pretty free. It is free, and if you think the "Free Three" aren't under attack you need to widen your gaze. It's under fire in America, it's under fire everywhere and some of them have already given up some territory. I'm actually not comfortable in my country. I feel like a dragon and my gold coins are my "Free Three," and I will not part with a single coin.

Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on October 07, 2017, 09:41:48 AM
The sad part is people in America have no idea how lucky they are to live here. It is literally the only haven left for free thought, free speech, and free expression. Check out guys like Jordan Peterson on Canada and bill 316, that was a pretty big deal. Countries like the UK, Canada, Australia and Switzerland are all "under the thumb."

America the only haven left ? Please. UK under the thumb ?  Under whose thumb ? Plenty of free speech and free expression here, as long as you don't resort to the 'isms Racism, Sexism, etc. Free thought is allowed everywhere, EVERYONES thoughts are their own. I don't think you have much idea what it is to live in a country outside your own, it's probably just that you are comfortable there because it is what you know, where you were brought up.

I'll pop a stastistic back at you.
Murders in all of England and Wales combined last year, 573, in a population of 58 million (less than one in a 100,000).
Murders in Chicago last year, 762 in a population of 2.7 million (one in just over every 3,500).
That is a stastistic that inspires personal terror, more than freedom.

I actually have no problem with you applauding America as a free country, just don't assume nowhere else is. While nowhere else is exactly like the US (all countries are unique in their own way), there are plenty of places in the world outside the US, that have a pretty free society.

Well, I didn't say it was the only one. My point was they are the only one where it is the law of the land and they don't compromise it for anyone. We are having this battle of what speech is protected. Also, those "isms" are not illegal, they're just extremely offensive.

Can you not even read your own post, where you say  "The sad part is people in America have no idea how lucky they are to live here. It is literally the only haven left for free thought, free speech, and free expression."  It isn't.

It's the "isms" you referred to that are being misrepresented and thrown around by, buzz word spoiler alert, demagogues. Those "isms" have lost their meaning by being thrown around so childishly. Anyone who actually uses them in a debate has no place in the debate because they are poorly prepared, uninformed, and ignorant.


So anyone who uses the word sexism or racism in a debate is somehow "poorly prepared, uninformed, and ignorant" ? That is priceless !

Pretty sure the UK is big on "Islamaphobia." https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9741/islamization-britain - It's not all sunshine and rainbows mate. There's plenty of other articles that support this and other things not mentioned that shine a negative spotlight here. Just don't use Google to search for them. Go ahead and draw a picture of Muhammed in front of a Mosque in your country, I dare you.

People are wary of Islam in the UK, due to the terrorist tactics of IS, but there are still an estimated 1,750 mosques in the UK, that generally go about their business quietly. Not exactly Islamophobic. Also, I never claimed the UK is all 'sunshine and rainbows'. I am willing to admit that, like any country, there are things there that work badly. The UK is very multicultural, these days - not surprising with the ease of travel.

Canada's bill 316, that almost got passed, made it illegal to call someone a name they didn't like. Specifically it was gender specific pronouns, but the language of the bill did make it somewhat open.

I have no comment to make on a bill that I don't know, in another country.

"that have a pretty free society." - This is my main point. America isn't pretty free. It is free, and if you think the "Free Three" aren't under attack you need to widen your gaze. It's under fire in America, it's under fire everywhere and some of them have already given up some territory. I'm actually not comfortable in my country. I feel like a dragon and my gold coins are my "Free Three," and I will not part with a single coin


There are many things you cannot do in America, just as there are many things you cannot do in the UK. Restrictions on society are how places crowded with people manage to coexist. In the better countries these are relatively loose controls, while elsewhere they might be rigidly tight, some may even lack any ability to set and enforce the law (ie anarchy).  Exercise your 'free expression' to walk around near the president with a big board saying 'Kill Trump', and see how long it is before you are arrested. It would be the same in the UK (if you substitute Prime Minister or Queen for Trump). So free expression is limited, in the US, in the UK, in any society. If you cannot see that freedom is not the absolute you believe it to be, you are not looking hard enough.

Remember, I am NOT claiming the UK is special, or better than the US. What I am saying is that your idea that the US is the only free society, is both wrong and naive. Your idea that the UK, which you called 'under the thumb' (in terms of free speech, free expression) relative to the US, is also wrong. Feel free to big-up freedoms in the US all you want claymaker, and I won't mind, but don't pretend it is the only place it exists.   

Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: ricky on October 07, 2017, 01:25:37 PM
claymaker, a favor, please. Could you post a link to this proposed Canadian Bill 316? I've googled it and only found a bill to allow Canadians to agree to be organ donors on their tax returns. Here is the gamut of stuff I found when googling Canadian bill 316:

https://www.google.com/search?q=canada+bill+316&rlz=1CAACAC_enUS539US539&oq=c&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i60l4j5.3141j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

So, if you could provide a link as to the contents of this bill, it would be very much appreciated.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: ricky on October 07, 2017, 03:43:39 PM
claymaker, never mind. Found an article on this subject while looking into a supposed California law dealing with pronouns in nursing homes. Anyway, I don't expect this to make any difference, but here's the link:

http://www.canadalandshow.com/no-wont-jailed-using-wrong-pronoun/
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: claymaker on October 07, 2017, 05:53:42 PM
claymaker, never mind. Found an article on this subject while looking into a supposed California law dealing with pronouns in nursing homes. Anyway, I don't expect this to make any difference, but here's the link:

http://www.canadalandshow.com/no-wont-jailed-using-wrong-pronoun/

Yea Bill C-16 sorry. It doesn't surprise me people don't know about these things enough to even correct me. It all comes down to the news you watch these days, and there a many things MSM outlets simply will not cover.

"There are many things you cannot do in America, just as there are many things you cannot do in the UK. Restrictions on society are how places crowded with people manage to coexist. In the better countries these are relatively loose controls, while elsewhere they might be rigidly tight, some may even lack any ability to set and enforce the law (ie anarchy).  Exercise your 'free expression' to walk around near the president with a big board saying 'Kill Trump', and see how long it is before you are arrested. It would be the same in the UK (if you substitute Prime Minister or Queen for Trump). So free expression is limited, in the US, in the UK, in any society. If you cannot see that freedom is not the absolute you believe it to be, you are not looking hard enough."

Free expression is limited in America? Remind me again about the Cathy Griffon debacle. What she did wasn't illegal right? There are many who might want it to be, but I don't.

Obviously, you can't go around inciting violence. There's actually a specific Supreme Court case that confirms this, Bradenburg vs. Ohio, which says that sort of speech, inciting violence, isn't protected. You actually could hold a poster that says "Kill Trump" around President Trump. What you couldn't do is hold a sign that says "I Am Going To Kill Trump Now." There has to be immediate danger and clear intent. Would the Secret Service detain that person? Yes, that's their job, but a "Kill Trump" sign is not illegal even around the President. I find it fascinating people inherently know this when they make their signs and say things in public, yet have no idea that law exists.

In what way is America not a "free country?" I'm not interested in the semantics argument here. Of course there are limits and those limits are the laws of the country. I assume this is understood as a baseline.

""So anyone who uses the word sexism or racism in a debate is somehow "poorly prepared, uninformed, and ignorant" ?"" - If it is an unwarranted attack on the person across from them yes, and it almost always is unwarranted these days. Anyone who is actually using those pejoratives, being racist, sexist or whatever is poorly prepared, uninformed, and ignorant. So in my little world, parties who are not those things are the ones whose debates I would hold up as an example of how most debates should be. Pretty sure that sort of debate is often identified as a "British" one. I believe we are encouraged to be on the offensive against racism, sexism, homophobia etc by calling it out when we see it, but I also firmly believe it is more important to be correct when doing so. If you're calling someone racist who isn't a racist, that's really wrong too.


Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: ricky on October 07, 2017, 10:45:57 PM
claymaker, so Bill 316 is not what you thought? Or what? Not trying to "pile on" or anything, Just curious. Because there is a lot of misinformation out there. And increasingly, we make up our minds, and simply find sources that agree with our preconceived ideas. As "The X Files" was fond of saying, "the truth is out there". But so are a thicket of lies, misrepresentations and exagerrations, all offered as facts. 
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on October 08, 2017, 01:07:30 AM
OK. I think I've said enough on freedoms as they apply to countries. My posts already make clear where I'm coming from. It's not really football talk, so I'll sign off on this thread.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: claymaker on October 08, 2017, 05:18:29 AM
claymaker, so Bill 316 is not what you thought? Or what? Not trying to "pile on" or anything, Just curious. Because there is a lot of misinformation out there. And increasingly, we make up our minds, and simply find sources that agree with our preconceived ideas. As "The X Files" was fond of saying, "the truth is out there". But so are a thicket of lies, misrepresentations and exagerrations, all offered as facts.

No it is exactly what I was thinking of. Just got the name wrong. It is Bill C-16, not Bill 316.

OK. I think I've said enough on freedoms as they apply to countries. My posts already make clear where I'm coming from. It's not really football talk, so I'll sign off on this thread.

That's fine. Just to be clear America is not a perfect place.

This thread or these posts aren't out of place in this subforum. It's taken a hard, right turn due to what I wrote, but we are allowed to embellish ourselves in this sub forum. It's not politics. It's just a discussion that is likely to take this sort of direction. It's not, not allowed, it's just not allowed in the rest of the forums.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: ricky on October 08, 2017, 07:37:12 AM
No it is exactly what I was thinking of. Just got the name wrong. It is Bill C-16, not Bill 316.

OK, C16. It does not criminalize pronoun usage. This is an politically motivated interpretaton of a bill to simply extend some protections that were already in the law. But then again, what do I know? Facts are not important. Perceptions and agendas are what count. Decide what is right, then find sources that support your belief. By the bye, claymaker, this is a general statement, not a specific indictment of you.

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/qbnamx/no-the-trans-rights-bill-doesnt-criminalize-free-speech

https://torontoist.com/2016/12/are-jordan-petersons-claims-about-bill-c-16-correct/

Also, there is now outrage that California has passed a law that allegedly mandates up to a year in prison and up to a $1,000 fine for not using the proper gender pronoun in a nursing home, allowing people to dress and see who they want, use the bathroom they prefer, etc. I've read the bill, and didn't find that specifidally addressed. Wait and see. This is another "outrage topic" that is probably being misrepresented. Just a guess. We'll see.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: claymaker on October 08, 2017, 05:45:32 PM
No it is exactly what I was thinking of. Just got the name wrong. It is Bill C-16, not Bill 316.

OK, C16. It does not criminalize pronoun usage. This is an politically motivated interpretaton of a bill to simply extend some protections that were already in the law. But then again, what do I know? Facts are not important. Perceptions and agendas are what count. Decide what is right, then find sources that support your belief. By the bye, claymaker, this is a general statement, not a specific indictment of you.

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/qbnamx/no-the-trans-rights-bill-doesnt-criminalize-free-speech

https://torontoist.com/2016/12/are-jordan-petersons-claims-about-bill-c-16-correct/

Also, there is now outrage that California has passed a law that allegedly mandates up to a year in prison and up to a $1,000 fine for not using the proper gender pronoun in a nursing home, allowing people to dress and see who they want, use the bathroom they prefer, etc. I've read the bill, and didn't find that specifidally addressed. Wait and see. This is another "outrage topic" that is probably being misrepresented. Just a guess. We'll see.

It's fine. It's one of those laws that seems harmless and has good intentions on it's face, but it is clearly a stab at criminalizing speech.

I've heard about the similar nursing home law. Again, good intentions but last time I checked calling people names they don't like is not a crime.

The law amends the Criminal Code by adding "gender identity or expression" to the definition of "identifiable group" in section 318.[7][8] Section 318 makes it a criminal offence to advocate or promote genocide against members of an identifiable group, which now includes gender identity or gender expression. Since the definition of "identifiable group" is also used in s 319 of the Code, the amendment also makes it a criminal offence to incite or promote hatred because of gender identity or gender expression. - A general loophole you won't on any site analyzing the bill, but you will find it on Wikipedia.

The law also adds "gender identity or expression" to section 718.2 of the Criminal Code. This section is part of the sentencing provisions and makes gender identity and gender expression an aggravating factor in sentencing, leading to increased sentences for individuals who commit crimes motivated by bias, prejudice or hate based on gender identity or expression. In other words it does criminalize pronoun usage.
 
As you can see the bill is more dangerous than you would first suspect. Is it the end of free speech? No, but it isn't a meaningless bill. It doesn't affect me, but I won't pretend like it doesn't matter.

For anyone interested: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB219 (Different bill.)

"Willfully and repeatedly fail to use a resident’s preferred name or pronouns after being clearly informed of the preferred name or pronouns."
---> It does outline, specifically, gender pronoun usage. I have zero issues with the bill except for that one bullet point. It comes down to a matter of morality and empathy, and being an immoral bastard alone is not a crime. Just generally regarded as distasteful and ugly.

Limiting what people can say and forcing them to say something are not the same thing.

I refrained from citing sources so anyone reading who's interested would take their own initiative. Would have worked out better if I had so I didn't look uninformed and gotten the name wrong.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: The GM on October 08, 2017, 08:03:55 PM
VP Mike Pence walked out of the Colts-Niners game today after some of the Niners kneeled for the anthem.  Said he wasnt going to stay around to watch people disrespect the flag.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 08, 2017, 08:17:37 PM
So did any Packers or Cowboys players kneel or whatever during our national anthem today?
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Leader on October 08, 2017, 08:20:57 PM
VP Mike Pence walked out of the Colts-Niners game today after some of the Niners kneeled for the anthem.  Said he wasnt going to stay around to watch people disrespect the flag.

It was a stunt. Pool reporters with Pence were told to wait in vans because “there may be an early departure from the game by VPOTUS.”
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 08, 2017, 08:28:24 PM
VP Mike Pence walked out of the Colts-Niners game today after some of the Niners kneeled for the anthem.  Said he wasnt going to stay around to watch people disrespect the flag.

It was a stunt. Pool reporters with Pence were told to wait in vans because “there may be an early departure from the game by VPOTUS.”


Don't get me started...you won't win!!


(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z175/PChatters/Politics/22365400_10156108637996336_3673957808801733145_n_zpscjghuncv.jpg)
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Leader on October 08, 2017, 09:36:31 PM
Don't get me started...you won't win!!

Start? I'm done. Talk to yourself about this.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 08, 2017, 09:50:47 PM
Don't get me started...you won't win!!

Start? I'm done. Talk to yourself about this.


John I was responding to you...no one else.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: The GM on October 08, 2017, 10:10:34 PM
So did any Packers or Cowboys players kneel or whatever during our national anthem today?

After the game, Jerry Jones put out a statement saying any Cowboy who knelt for the anthem would be benched.  A couple other owners put out similar statements.

 
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 09, 2017, 08:52:30 AM
So did any Packers or Cowboys players kneel or whatever during our national anthem today?

After the game, Jerry Jones put out a statement saying any Cowboy who knelt for the anthem would be benched.  A couple other owners put out similar statements.

 


Thanks, but anybody kneeling or protesting 'during' the anthem?
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: ricky on October 09, 2017, 01:37:22 PM
LMG, sorry, Pence going to a game then leaving in "disgust" was a stunt. He knew very well that some 49ers were going to kneel during the Anthem. This isn't an discussion about whether that is correct or not. This is about a politician, using taxpayer money, goes to a game where he knows he's going to be offended. This reminds me of the great scene from Casablanca, where the head of police is "shocked" to find that gambling is going on at "Rick's". Then, shortly afterward, he is given the winnings from his own gambling. This is political theater. Another way to "stir up the base".

Once again, the issue of whether kneeling during the Anthem is acceptable or not is an entirely different issue. Pence was showboating and playing politics on the taxpayer's dime. You'll now notice that the POTUS is calling attention to this "issue", and claiming he was the impetus of this stunt.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: The GM on October 09, 2017, 01:46:40 PM
Great leadership by VP Pence.  Kudos to him for giving the NFL a chance, and walking out on a disrespectful circus.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: mikebpackfan on October 09, 2017, 02:18:00 PM
I saw somewhere (Maybe Silverstein's game blog?), that Matthews didn't link arms, but stood with hand over heart yesterday.  Surprised no one made a big deal of it.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 09, 2017, 05:55:11 PM
LMG, sorry, Pence going to a game then leaving in "disgust" was a stunt. He knew very well that some 49ers were going to kneel during the Anthem. This isn't an discussion about whether that is correct or not. This is about a politician, using taxpayer money, goes to a game where he knows he's going to be offended. This reminds me of the great scene from Casablanca, where the head of police is "shocked" to find that gambling is going on at "Rick's". Then, shortly afterward, he is given the winnings from his own gambling. This is political theater. Another way to "stir up the base".

Once again, the issue of whether kneeling during the Anthem is acceptable or not is an entirely different issue. Pence was showboating and playing politics on the taxpayer's dime. You'll now notice that the POTUS is calling attention to this "issue", and claiming he was the impetus of this stunt.





NFL and their players have been putting on their 'stunts' in stadiums during our national anthem and in front of our flag since Kaepernick started this disrespect last year.


What VP Pence did was not a stunt but a statement saying what they were doing is NOT OK...period!!


What I've read about all this 'stunt' Pence talk is that it started with the Indy media and how the local sports media humiliated themselves in responding. Then the msm and social media spun it from there.


Here is some of what I have read and understand....


Quote
"Vice President Mike Pence has been an Indianapolis Colts fan for quite awhile. He served the state of Indiana in Congress during the record-setting heyday of Peyton Manning. So it was unsurprising to find out that Pence planned to be at Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis yesterday when the Colts officially retired Manning’s jersey and inducted him into their Ring of Honor during halftime of their game against the San Francisco 49ers.


Former CBS Sports writer and current Indy Star sports columnist Gregg Doyel, a card-carrying left-wing activist, immediately registered his disgust by cranking out an article suggesting that, “Mike Pence used the Colts to spray paint Donald Trump’s political graffiti.” His hyperbole got him an invitation to appear on CNN’s "New Day" with fellow leftist Chris Cuomo.


He was far from alone in his indignation, though. In fact, the entire Indianapolis Star staff, which has notoriously opposed and besmirched Pence for years, apparently saw their opportunity to issue a collective, coordinated strike.


Opinion chief Tim Swarens pushed out a column accusing Pence of demonstrating a lack of leadership. Sports writer Zac Keefer kept everyone informed how much per hour it cost taxpayers to fly Air Force 2, and whined that the, “Whole thing was planned.” But the most hysterical response went to their colleague Stephen Holder who quoted NFL reporter Mike Freeman’s tweet calling Pence’s action “pre-planned outrage” and “fake outrage,” adding, “Total publicity stunt IMO (in my opinion).”


Wait a minute. Holder (and Keefer, and Doyel), have fallen all over themselves applauding the publicity stunt of players taking a knee during the anthem for weeks now. Why are some publicity stunts more equal than others?


Local radio star Tony Katz, who fills in occasionally for nationally syndicated Dana Loesch, asked Holder to clarify whether it qualifies as a publicity stunt when players kneel. Holder’s response was choice:


“Probably to you, because you either aren’t listening to them or don’t care. Good day.”


Sorry, but that’s just too funny. I’m guessing Holder doesn’t even realize that the exact same thing can be said about his response to Pence: Holder either isn’t listening to Pence when he explains why he left, or he doesn’t care. The vice president stayed, stood, and honored the flag and anthem while it was performed. He chose not to stay and honor the players who disrespected that flag with his presence at their game – like countless other fans have done as well. This isn’t that difficult to understand.


Keefer, Doyel, and Holder don’t want anyone telling players they have to stand for the anthem. But they’re totally fine with telling the vice president he has to stay for the game. This might be why they write about balls for a living."


Source: Peter Heck  |  October 9, 2017, 04:45am (http://theresurgent.com/pence-walks-out-of-nfl-game-sports-media-loses-their-minds/)
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: ricky on October 09, 2017, 07:28:26 PM
So, the tweets by PResident Trump, where he said this was something he and Pence had talked about, don't indicate this was a planned maneuver? OK. I won't bother linking to them, because it wouldn't make any difference. So, as with the other political thread, I'm done. I've got some paint that needs watching to make sure it dries correctly.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 09, 2017, 07:55:44 PM
Please do link Ricky
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: SSG on October 10, 2017, 10:16:17 AM
Great leadership by VP Pence.  Kudos to him for giving the NFL a chance, and walking out on a disrespectful circus.

Turning your back and leaving an issue isn't great leadership.  That is the sign of a coward who would rather run from an issue than confront it.  I've wore a uniform for damn near every day for the last 17 years.  If my first line leader, Commander, First Sergeant, Platoon Sergeant or squad leader turned his back and ran from an issue instead of confronting it he wouldn't be in that leadership position very long.  Pence has absolutely no interest in fixing anything and he proved that this weekend in one of the more cowardly actions I've ever seen from some one in that position.  Its unfortunate that this administration is so fueled by division and hatred as they have the platform to help.  Instead they are doing a lot of damage and making the division in this country even larger.

Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: ricky on October 10, 2017, 01:30:47 PM
Please do link Ricky

OK. This is because of your polkte request, and because of my debt to you for founding this site. Two links, both intertwined, IMO. But then again, what do I know?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/10/08/vice-president-pence-walks-out-of-colts-game-over-49ers-national-anthem-protests/?utm_term=.c60b6067882d

I'm sure this is all just a coincidence:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/09/politics/donald-trump-mike-pence-nfl/index.html

The 49ers were well known for having a fairly large number of players kneel during the National Anthem. This was not a sudden protest, as when VP Pence was confronted from the stage after a performance of "Hamilton". That was unexpected. This was totally predictable. You can draw your own conclusions.

Here is something I wrote in response to claymaker earlier in this thread. To me, this encapsulates the problem we're having trying to talk to each other:

Because there is a lot of misinformation out there. And increasingly, we make up our minds, and simply find sources that agree with our preconceived ideas. As "The X Files" was fond of saying, "the truth is out there". But so are a thicket of lies, misrepresentations and exagerrations, all offered as facts.



Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 10, 2017, 03:05:41 PM

A Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) in Florida has canceled its National Football League (NFL) subscription amid the ongoing protests of the national anthem at recent games.


"There’s a time and a place to voice their options about anything at all and that’s what America stands for, if you have an opinion, you are permitted to voice it any way you want but not at other people’s expense,” Blydenburgh said.


The VFW post canceled its subscription just days before Vice President Mike Pence left an Indianapolis Colts game on Sunday against the San Francisco 49ers after players from the California team kneeled during the anthem.


Article (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/10/florida-vfw-post-cancels-nfl-subscription-amid-national-anthem-protests.html)

Some want to make it even more political than what Kaepernick started last year. Following is what I've been saying all along;


"Somebody had to give these players, students, rioters and the others a little USA history lesson since they didn't get it at home, school and now even places of employment. What better man than OUR President Donald Trump.


Respect has great importance in everyday life. As children we are taught (one hopes) to respect our parents, teachers, and elders, school rules and traffic laws, family and cultural traditions, other people's feelings and rights, our country's flag and leaders, the truth and people's differing opinions.


The President of the United States is not a coward, like the previous one, to tell it like it is, not just this about our nation's flag and anthem, but in many other things that were not previously addressed.


The players have the Constitutional right to protest whatever they wish to protest. They do not, however, have the Constitutional right to do so on the stage provided for them by the NFL. If the NFL allows them to protest on the field, that is a privilege afforded them by the NFL, not a right granted by the Constitution.


If the players owners et all really want to respect OUR flag and National Anthem before any sporting event they will stand with one hand over their heart facing the flag, NOT WITH LINKED ARMS!!


Now the Packers and their players asked the fans to join them in linking arms during the anthem??? In other words by doing that you are with us and approving!!! Not only did the Packers’ weak attempt to get the entire stadium to interlock arms during the anthem, flop, the ratings for Thursday Night Football crashed again, as more Americans decided they’d rather not be told how their ruining the world by a bunch of hypocrites.


These players and coaches are supposed to be role models for our children! Unfortunately it kind of shows you where we are or headed! It's the dawning of a new day like it or not.


I have no problem with the NFL players wanting to demonstrate against something. The problem is they are taking advantage of their place of employment on football days in uniform and are disrespecting our flag, national anthem and most importantly all the men and women who gave their service and many many who gave their lives for our flag and Country.


Here are couple of thoughts.... why don't the players on their days off go out in the stadiums parking lots, or rent a venue of their choosing and hold rallies, in their street clothes and link arms, kneel or whatever else they want to protest or...start some charities that would benefit their concerns...how about visiting some of the oppressed areas in our Country they are championing for and do something good for the people there. I'm sure the players can come up with some more examples where they can help.


Here's another thing....where were all the libs/dimms and protestors before President Trump was elected? I'll use an old military term, MIA, missing in action! How sad the left is!!"


(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z175/PChatters/Politics/22228645_1957151914344928_8552893925725180844_n_zpsxwprca9u.png)
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: maxman44 on October 10, 2017, 03:30:45 PM
Great Sign
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: ricky on October 10, 2017, 03:57:12 PM
Great Sign

Agreed. VP Pence did indeed spend a lot of taxpayer flying to the game which he knew he'd face something he found offensive. So, if he wants to protest protests, he should, indeed, 'do it on his own time, and not on my dime', as a taxpayer.
 
That was my contention, and nothing I read by LMG has challenged anything I wrote, or linked. Anyway, apparently the NFL is going to install a rule forcing the players to stand during the Anthem. Will that appease anyone? Nope. The next thing will be that players who didn't stand should be banished from the league.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 10, 2017, 04:25:44 PM
Great Sign

Agreed. VP Pence did indeed spend a lot of taxpayer flying to the game which he knew he'd face something he found offensive. So, if he wants to protest protests, he should, indeed, 'do it on his own time, and not on my dime', as a taxpayer.
 
That was my contention, and nothing I read by LMG has challenged anything I wrote, or linked. Anyway, apparently the NFL is going to install a rule forcing the players to stand during the Anthem. Will that appease anyone? Nope. The next thing will be that players who didn't stand should be banished from the league.


Now you are spinning Ricky. Go back and read what I had underlined...it means the so called protests are being carried out in the wrong venue. Fans come to stadiums to watch football not to watch players disrespect our flag, national anthem and the men and women who have served and died so that we remain free.


The 'sign' was made way before Sunday's game.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: SSG on October 10, 2017, 04:32:41 PM

A Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) in Florida has canceled its National Football League (NFL) subscription amid the ongoing protests of the national anthem at recent games.


"There’s a time and a place to voice their options about anything at all and that’s what America stands for, if you have an opinion, you are permitted to voice it any way you want but not at other people’s expense,” Blydenburgh said.


The VFW post canceled its subscription just days before Vice President Mike Pence left an Indianapolis Colts game on Sunday against the San Francisco 49ers after players from the California team kneeled during the anthem.


Article (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/10/florida-vfw-post-cancels-nfl-subscription-amid-national-anthem-protests.html)

Some want to make it even more political than what Kaepernick started last year. Following is what I've been saying all along;


"Somebody had to give these players, students, rioters and the others a little USA history lesson since they didn't get it at home, school and now even places of employment. What better man than OUR President Donald Trump.


Respect has great importance in everyday life. As children we are taught (one hopes) to respect our parents, teachers, and elders, school rules and traffic laws, family and cultural traditions, other people's feelings and rights, our country's flag and leaders, the truth and people's differing opinions.


The President of the United States is not a coward, like the previous one, to tell it like it is, not just this about our nation's flag and anthem, but in many other things that were not previously addressed.


The players have the Constitutional right to protest whatever they wish to protest. They do not, however, have the Constitutional right to do so on the stage provided for them by the NFL. If the NFL allows them to protest on the field, that is a privilege afforded them by the NFL, not a right granted by the Constitution.


If the players owners et all really want to respect OUR flag and National Anthem before any sporting event they will stand with one hand over their heart facing the flag, NOT WITH LINKED ARMS!!


Now the Packers and their players asked the fans to join them in linking arms during the anthem??? In other words by doing that you are with us and approving!!! Not only did the Packers’ weak attempt to get the entire stadium to interlock arms during the anthem, flop, the ratings for Thursday Night Football crashed again, as more Americans decided they’d rather not be told how their ruining the world by a bunch of hypocrites.


These players and coaches are supposed to be role models for our children! Unfortunately it kind of shows you where we are or headed! It's the dawning of a new day like it or not.


I have no problem with the NFL players wanting to demonstrate against something. The problem is they are taking advantage of their place of employment on football days in uniform and are disrespecting our flag, national anthem and most importantly all the men and women who gave their service and many many who gave their lives for our flag and Country.


Here are couple of thoughts.... why don't the players on their days off go out in the stadiums parking lots, or rent a venue of their choosing and hold rallies, in their street clothes and link arms, kneel or whatever else they want to protest or...start some charities that would benefit their concerns...how about visiting some of the oppressed areas in our Country they are championing for and do something good for the people there. I'm sure the players can come up with some more examples where they can help.


Here's another thing....where were all the libs/dimms and protestors before President Trump was elected? I'll use an old military term, MIA, missing in action! How sad the left is!!"


(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z175/PChatters/Politics/22228645_1957151914344928_8552893925725180844_n_zpsxwprca9u.png)

How exactly is Donald Trump qualified to give anyone a history lesson?  In his 71 years what has he ever done that was patriotic for this country?  He openly bragged about not paying taxes and using tax code loopholes.  Is that sort of behavior patriotic?  Did he serve?  No, used almost a half dozen draft deferments to do everything in his power to keep himself from serving.  Is that Patriotic?  Is trashing and trying to humiliate POWs, insinuating that their service to their country means nothing because they were prisoners Patriotic?  Please don't say its because he's President because you showed what very little that position means to you with your attacking and trashing of President Obama.  Make no mistake about it, Donald Trump is a coward that could give two shits about this country, that flag or the military.  Just because he was an up and down business man that made a lot of fans being an a-hole reality TV star doesn't mean he's qualified to give anyone a history lesson.

  I've got no interest in communicating with memes as its like communicating like a junior high student.  So again, what exactly qualifies Donald Trump to give anyone a history lesson on what that flag means to this country, vets or the Military?

I'll put this here.  Its unfortunate the amount of hatred that has been spewed at this veteran for the suggestion he's made.  Just shows the massive amount of hate that fuels the alt-right or republican base.  I've served for the last 17 years and the division in this country makes me sick to my stomach.  Though I can see through the very strong and VILE hatred that is being spewed, it makes one question his service to this country.  We are in a sickening state right now that is only being made worse by the divisive manner this administration is attacking this country's issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4nyaL8qmK0&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Kepler on October 10, 2017, 04:43:36 PM
Great post SSG but don't expect an intelligent response to it. The alt right prides themselves on being angry and ignorant rednecks. The country is embarrassing itself on the global stage......
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: B on October 10, 2017, 05:52:21 PM

How exactly is Donald Trump qualified to give anyone a history lesson?  In his 71 years what has he ever done that was patriotic for this country?  He openly bragged about not paying taxes and using tax code loopholes.  Is that sort of behavior patriotic?  Did he serve?  No, used almost a half dozen draft deferments to do everything in his power to keep himself from serving.  Is that Patriotic?  Is trashing and trying to humiliate POWs, insinuating that their service to their country means nothing because they were prisoners Patriotic?  Please don't say its because he's President because you showed what very little that position means to you with your attacking and trashing of President Obama.  Make no mistake about it, Donald Trump is a coward that could give two shits about this country, that flag or the military.  Just because he was an up and down business man that made a lot of fans being an a-hole reality TV star doesn't mean he's qualified to give anyone a history lesson.

  I've got no interest in communicating with memes as its like communicating like a junior high student.  So again, what exactly qualifies Donald Trump to give anyone a history lesson on what that flag means to this country, vets or the Military?

I'll put this here.  Its unfortunate the amount of hatred that has been spewed at this veteran for the suggestion he's made.  Just shows the massive amount of hate that fuels the alt-right or republican base.  I've served for the last 17 years and the division in this country makes me sick to my stomach.  Though I can see through the very strong and VILE hatred that is being spewed, it makes one question his service to this country.  We are in a sickening state right now that is only being made worse by the divisive manner this administration is attacking this country's issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4nyaL8qmK0&feature=youtu.be

This Veteran shouts out  goodpost clap) SSG

Please tell me that the picture you posted LMG was ironical... right???
A guy holding up a protest sign during the national anthem to protest guys kneeling and placing their hands on their hearts or locking arms in unity during the same anthem...

Too rich!

Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 10, 2017, 06:06:23 PM

This veteran doesn't "shout out" just getting my view out.

Not sure when that pic was taken but don't think during the anthem....to many hats on and people smiling...or maybe laughing at the players.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 10, 2017, 06:22:18 PM
SSG...Your anti-view of President Trump is very clear and that's OK...the First Amendment is also clear...for ALL people.


So don't pull the lib/dimm typical response to shout down other opinions because YOU don't agree with them.


The reason President Trump called out the players, who obviously with the NFL's approval were holding their protests in stadiums on game days in uniform, was because nobody else would tell them to stop because they were disrespecting Country, flag, national anthem and men and women in service and veterans which you say you are (thanks for your service SSG).


One more time with this and hopefully you'll see where I'm coming from;


Quote
The players have the Constitutional right to protest whatever they wish to protest. They do not, however, have the Constitutional right to do so on the stage provided for them by the NFL. If the NFL allows them to protest on the field, that is a privilege afforded them by the NFL, not a right granted by the Constitution.


If the players owners et all really want to respect OUR flag and National Anthem before any sporting event they will stand with one hand over their heart facing the flag, NOT WITH LINKED ARMS or on a knee!!


Now the Packers and their players asked the fans to join them in linking arms during the anthem??? In other words by doing that you are with us and approving!!! Not only did the Packers’ weak attempt to get the entire stadium to interlock arms during the anthem, flop, the ratings for Thursday Night Football crashed again, as more Americans decided they’d rather not be told how their ruining the world by a bunch of hypocrites.


These players and coaches are supposed to be role models for our children! Unfortunately it kind of shows you where we are or headed! It's the dawning of a new day like it or not.


I have no problem with the NFL players wanting to demonstrate against something. The problem is they are taking advantage of their place of employment on football days in uniform and are disrespecting our flag, national anthem and most importantly all the men and women who gave their service and many many who gave their lives for our flag and Country.


Let me ask this from one vet to another...do you kneel in or out of uniform in uniformfor the national anthem because you disagree with President Trump?
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: B on October 10, 2017, 06:46:57 PM
Everyone is standing looking up.

Too many hats on? Larry, come on man, I know you have attended many games in your life.
Many people do not remove their hats, hell plenty are horsing around drinking and shooting the breeze during the anthem.

I stand and put my hand on my heart (I sometimes might even smile), unless I am in uniform - then I salute, but my service was about serving our country and freedom (not the flag that Trump uses for retail purposes) - including the respectful protesting of kneeling hand on heart or linking arms.

And SSG is right.

Who is this guy to lecture and give history lessons, this guy who between 1964 and 1972 received five deferments — in addition to his "bone spurs" claim, the other four were based on his educational status. He received two deferments while he attended Fordham University from 1964 to 1966, and two more after transferring to the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania.

Draft dodger, who never served (even in the reserves), but in 1997, he laughed when telling radio host Howard Stern that avoiding sexually transmitted diseases was like his "personal Vietnam." "It is a dangerous world out there. It’s scary, like Vietnam. Sort of like the Vietnam era,” Trump said to Stern, discussing his sex life. "I feel like a great and very brave soldier.”

Today, Trump struggles to recall the most basic facts about the medical condition that was the basis for his final deferment. He doesn't remember the name of the doctor who provided him with the note of proof and has repeatedly failed to provide a copy of it to The New York Times. He's also forgotten which of his heels had the spurs, now just claiming it was both. NOTE During the 2016 presidential election, the affliction wasn't noted by Dr. Harold Bornstein, a physician who performed a physical on Trump and found that he had "no significant medical problems." in his medical history...

This dodger who questions and insults McCain's service and sacrifice, including being a POW in the war Trump avoided."I like people who weren't captured."

Was he being honorable when he publicly disrespected Khizr Muazzam Khan and Ghazala Khan, the gold-star Pakistani-American parents of Army captain Humayun Khan, who was killed in combat in 2004 and posthumously awarded a Purple Heart and Gold Star for his bravery?
 
Were these part of his history lesson? And why he thinks he is best qualified to lecture

"There's nobody bigger or better at the military than I am." — June 2015 Fox News interview

"I know more about ISIS [the Islamic State militant group] than the generals do. Believe me." — November 2015

"So a general gets on and he said, 'Mr. Trump doesn't understand. He knows nothing about defense.' I know more about offense and defense than they will ever understand, believe me. Believe me. Than they will ever understand. Than they will ever understand." — July 2016

"There is nobody who understands the horror of nuclear more than me." -- June 2016

"Because nobody knows the system better than me. I know the H1B. I know the H2B. Nobody knows it (Visas) better than me." -- March 2016

"Nobody in the history of this country has ever known so much about infrastructure as Donald Trump." — July 2016

"Nobody knows more about trade than me." — March 2016
 
"Nobody knows the system better than I do." — April 2016

"I understand money better than anybody. I'm way up on the economy when it comes to questions on the economy." — June 2016

"I know the Wall Street bankers better than anyone.". — April 2016 on NBC's "Today" show

"I think nobody knows more about taxes than I do, maybe in the history of the world. Nobody knows more about taxes." — May 2016

"I know more about renewables than any human being on Earth." — April 2016

Larry, I certainly support and respect your right to your opinion. I would even stand with you, hands on our hearts and sing along while facing the flag  during the anthem.

However, I will not remove my support and respect for players and coaches right to express theirs promoting equality, justice, and life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
 Even when it is done in tax subsidized stadiums during the national anthem.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 10, 2017, 07:17:10 PM
Thanks B.


No where have I said that the players, or anybody, does not have the right to protest have I?


My problem, and of a lot of fans, it is the platform they chose to air their protests....game days, in uniform disrespecting out Country. The players can spin this this anyway they want but they are being disrespectful!!


The NFL has no backbone as they are only worried about the money they are now losing and will try and gloss this over and hope the fans negative responses make it all just go away.


Here is something I read on cnn...CNN legal analyst Paul Callan in a recent article titled “There is no constitutional right to take a knee while you’re at work,” explained:


Quote
The fact is, these athletes do not have the “right” to protest at football games unless their employers consent to the conduct,” adding how their private employers had every right to suspend the players who protested during the playing of the national anthem.


Carry on....
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Thom_Tedson on October 10, 2017, 07:19:53 PM
Lot's of good things posted on this thread. This includes the original poster's post despite the fact that I'm on the other side.

I find it stunning that the same people are complaining that the protesters don't appreciate their freedoms are advocating for those freedoms to be taken away.

I'm not as frightened by Trump as I am frightened by the 1/3 of the country that supports him. I think the US is at risk of a fascist coup. So no... I wouldn't agree that we are the most free country in the world either.  I think we're a border-line police state with 40 gun deaths every day, the greatest percentage of its citizens incarcerated, poor healthcare, income inequality equal to that of many third-world countries, unending war, failing infrastructure, oligarchy, and refugees fleeing north to Canada. This is what the protests are about... not about disrespecting those that serve.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: B on October 10, 2017, 07:25:44 PM
By the way, you do realize that the Star-spangled Banner was written by Francis Scott Key during the War of 1812.
It didn't become our national anthem until 1931.

Further, did you know that Francis Scott Key, a slave owner included  a third stanza in his poem. In it, he openly celebrates the murder of enslaved people.

No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,

And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.


Here is a quote from Key, as District Attorney of Washington referring to Blacks (using a far more colorful and distasteful word)
"a distinct and inferior race of people, which all experience proves to be the greatest evil that afflicts a community."

Maybe Donald could include that in his history lesson or at least be one that he learns before dispensing his.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: ricky on October 10, 2017, 07:35:56 PM
Now you are spinning Ricky. Go back and read what I had underlined...it means the so called protests are being carried out in the wrong venue. Fans come to stadiums to watch football not to watch players disrespect our flag, national anthem and the men and women who have served and died so that we remain free.


The 'sign' was made way before Sunday's game.

OK, I did go back and re-read what you underlined. That is an opinion about the players kneeling during the National Anthem, and I am well aware of what you think about that issue.  However, that doesn't address the issue I raised earlier. So, I'll ask again. Do you believe VP Pence went to the game as a publicity stunt? He knew what was going to happen, then expressed outrage after walking out- which had been "suggested" by President Trump. And then Mr. Trump went to a fundraising event, and used Mr. Pence's leaving the game to help raise money for his campaign. This doesn't seem even slightly politically motivated?

As far as my take on the sign in Lambeau, of course I was "spinning". Never for a second did I think that was the reason for the sign being shown. Perhaps a  sarcasm should have been added. Though it did, indeed, reflect my feelings about VP Pence's political stunt.

And as long as we're discussing this, it seems the NFL may very well demand that players stand during the National ANthem.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/10/10/signs-point-to-nfl-potentially-telling-players-to-stand/

So, would that be the end of the issue in your opinion? Or should there be "consquences" for those who knelt, during the time when there was no demand by the NFL to stand. And, if there should be consequences, what would you suggest?

The first question was never answered, IMO. The second is new. I don't want to re-read you think the players are disrespectful; or that Obama was a coward, and that Trump is strong. I know all that. Was the Pence walkout a stunt? Should players face punishment for kneeling during the Anthem? If so, what form should that punishment take?

Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: SSG on October 10, 2017, 07:42:52 PM
SSG...Your anti-view of President Trump is very clear and that's OK...the First Amendment is also clear...for ALL people.


So don't pull the lib/dimm typical response to shout down other opinions because YOU don't agree with them.


The reason President Trump called out the players, who obviously with the NFL's approval were holding their protests in stadiums on game days in uniform, was because nobody else would tell them to stop because they were disrespecting Country, flag, national anthem and men and women in service and veterans which you say you are (thanks for your service SSG).


One more time with this and hopefully you'll see where I'm coming from;


Quote
The players have the Constitutional right to protest whatever they wish to protest. They do not, however, have the Constitutional right to do so on the stage provided for them by the NFL. If the NFL allows them to protest on the field, that is a privilege afforded them by the NFL, not a right granted by the Constitution.


If the players owners et all really want to respect OUR flag and National Anthem before any sporting event they will stand with one hand over their heart facing the flag, NOT WITH LINKED ARMS or on a knee!!


Now the Packers and their players asked the fans to join them in linking arms during the anthem??? In other words by doing that you are with us and approving!!! Not only did the Packers’ weak attempt to get the entire stadium to interlock arms during the anthem, flop, the ratings for Thursday Night Football crashed again, as more Americans decided they’d rather not be told how their ruining the world by a bunch of hypocrites.


These players and coaches are supposed to be role models for our children! Unfortunately it kind of shows you where we are or headed! It's the dawning of a new day like it or not.


I have no problem with the NFL players wanting to demonstrate against something. The problem is they are taking advantage of their place of employment on football days in uniform and are disrespecting our flag, national anthem and most importantly all the men and women who gave their service and many many who gave their lives for our flag and Country.


Let me ask this from one vet to another...do you kneel in or out of uniform in uniformfor the national anthem because you disagree with President Trump?

Please refrain form labeling me.  You calling me a lib/dimm is like me calling you a neo nazi.  Just because I have some views on the left side of the isle and think Trump is and always has been a truly putrid human being (and just because you share some of the same views as Neo Nazi’s, i.e… a massive amount of support for Trump) doesn’t mean either one of us are those things.  Yes, I’m capable of calling Trump out on some of the garbage he spews.  I am not a party specific person that has views on both sides of the isle. 

NO WHERE did I "shout down your opinion" in my post.  I didn't disparage your opinion or your right to have one.  Take that fabricated stuff elsewhere.  I simply asked you a question, a question you avoided.  I don't care what your views are reality is there is NOTHING that can be said to change those opinions or views.   

The NFL IS NOT kneeling because they disagree with President Trump.  The fact that you believe that tells me that you have no idea why they are kneeling which makes one understand why you want those protests moved to the parking lot where its not going to get any attention.  The protest started under President Obama long before the reality TV star was elected to office.  It gained momentum after Trump attacked and trashed the players and their mothers to the nation because he's not willing to allow any view but his own.  Him trashing others for different views isn't something new as he does it almost on a daily basis on Twitter. 

To answer your question, NO.  I do not and will not sit or kneel during the National Anthem BUT I have no issues with others using their first amendment right to do so.  I'm not going to trash and belittle others because they have different views.  Reality is, hatred is going to be continued to be spewed at NFL players because they are Trump's newest punching bag regardless of what they do or don't do.  Most are standing now and even that isn't' good enough because some don't have their hand over their heart (something I've NEVER done in the hundreds of times I've stood for the NA in and out of uniform, I'm unsure how not having your hand over your heart now suddenly became a giant insult to flag, country, vets and the military).

We're going to have to agree to disagree.  NO WHERE in the NFL rule book does it say NFL players MUST stand for the NA.  That is a fabricated, misinformed meme that is going around, like 99% of them.  The players are using their first amendment right to protest an issue that is still a MAJOR issue in this country.  It's unfortunate that you are so strongly against the message of unity that the Packers are trying to promote. 

These players ARE role models, and some of them GREAT ones.  These players just got done raising millions for hurricane Harvey relief but because they have a different view than yours they are suddenly bad people?  Colin Kapernick has donated and raised Millions of dollars for some pretty great causes but because some don’t agree with his avenue of protesting he’s trash worthy of some of the most vile, racist hatred ever spewed at a pro athlete (more than guys who killed people, Raped, beaten their wife, slaughtered dogs, ect.).  Guys like Russell Wilson, Antonio Brown (naming 2 out of hundreds) have donated millions to things like children hospitals and other charities.  I want my kid to understand and support unity.  I do not want my kid living in a divided country where its ok to trash and belittle others because there are different views in this world/ country.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 10, 2017, 07:55:16 PM
You know I think the 'publicity stunt' is what the players have been doing since Kaepernick started this last year and why? Again the venue (stadiums on game days). Where were these player protests in the off season? No where to be found. Hypocrites to the max!!


VP Pence is fron Indiana remember and a Colt and Manning fan. His trip there was planned ahead, INMHO,  but also then conincided with the President's call out of the disrespecting of the flag, anthem and vets by the players, teams and the NFL.


So a Pence stunt? that's what the msm and thelibs/dimms want to believe and broadcast.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: SSG on October 10, 2017, 08:15:13 PM
You know I think the 'publicity stunt' is what the players have been doing since Kaepernick started this last year and why? Again the venue (stadiums on game days). Where were these player protests in the off season? No where to be found. Hypocrites to the max!!


And what do you feel the NFL players are gaining by this "publicity stunt"?   

Colin Kapernick was just honored (by the NFL union) for the work that he's been doing with charities around the country.  The idea that players aren't doing anything is fabricated dribble that just proves no matter what the players do they are going to be the target of hate being spewed in their direction. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/09/15/colin-kaepernick-honored-by-players-union-for-charity-work/105645590/

Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Toddfather on October 10, 2017, 08:34:31 PM
Why are you guys still arguing with the Repub-a-tron 4000? You are not going to make him think outside his narrow viewpoint for more than 2 seconds, and then you will be hit by a shower of memes that are nothing more than talking points changing the subject of the main issues.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Kepler on October 10, 2017, 08:34:58 PM
Lot's of good things posted on this thread. This includes the original poster's post despite the fact that I'm on the other side.

I find it stunning that the same people are complaining that the protesters don't appreciate their freedoms are advocating for those freedoms to be taken away.

I'm not as frightened by Trump as I am frightened by the 1/3 of the country that supports him. I think the US is at risk of a fascist coup. So no... I wouldn't agree that we are the most free country in the world either.  I think we're a border-line police state with 40 gun deaths every day, the greatest percentage of its citizens incarcerated, poor healthcare, income inequality equal to that of many third-world countries, unending war, failing infrastructure, oligarchy, and refugees fleeing north to Canada. This is what the protests are about... not about disrespecting those that serve.

 thumbsup)
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 10, 2017, 08:35:14 PM
I would say 'prime time' at the fans expense.


Kudos to Colin.


You know we watched Colin, being we live in Reno, grow to be an exciting player under HC Chris Ault and the 'pistol offense' at the University of Nevada Reno (UNR). He was exciting to watch and led the Wolfpack to some really good seasons.  We thought he would do well in the NFL....in the right system. Then....



All this current stuff was started by Kaepernick after he had just converted to Islam and a new girl friend.


He has a muslim girlfriend (who coincidentally is one of the lead members of black lives matters). They hang out with Linda Sansour (one of the main figurehead speakers for the Muslim brotherhood).


So the entire movement started as a muslim action disguised as a racist protest when it isn't really about equality at all. It is to cause hate against our flag and country. Good jobs following a terrorist group that keeps blacks as slaves!!!


Real smart to honor those who oppress blacks and women and then call it equality.


So sad....
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 10, 2017, 08:36:53 PM
Why are you guys still arguing with the Repub-a-tron 4000? You are not going to make him think outside his narrow viewpoint for more than 2 seconds, and then you will be hit by a shower of memes that are nothing more than talking points changing the subject of the main issues.


You are embarrassing yourself...but not unexpected I guess.


Carry on....
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 10, 2017, 08:38:17 PM
I'm 54 yrs old soon to be 55. Have not missed a game since I was in the military. So disappointed in all of this about kneeling for the anthem. Rodgers is 1000 times smarter than me but he is wrong , the flag and the anthem is all about the military and the people who served and died  so that people can have freedom of speech and the freedom  of everyday life in the USA. So this week and and starting tonight I will boycott all nfl  games on television this weekend. This is really going to be hard, but this is my small stand. Go pack go


Here is the 'original post' as a reminder.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Kepler on October 10, 2017, 08:44:15 PM
Why are you guys still arguing with the Repub-a-tron 4000? You are not going to make him think outside his narrow viewpoint for more than 2 seconds, and then you will be hit by a shower of memes that are nothing more than talking points changing the subject of the main issues.

True. Probably best to just steer clear of this thread.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 10, 2017, 08:58:32 PM
Why are you guys still arguing with the Repub-a-tron 4000? You are not going to make him think outside his narrow viewpoint for more than 2 seconds, and then you will be hit by a shower of memes that are nothing more than talking points changing the subject of the main issues.

True. Probably best to just steer clear of this thread.


How sad...the truth hurts I guess.


Carry on....
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 10, 2017, 09:08:49 PM
Spin this logic...


https://www.facebook.com/FoxNews/videos/10156119886451336/ (https://www.facebook.com/FoxNews/videos/10156119886451336/)
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: B on October 10, 2017, 09:18:52 PM
I would say 'prime time' at the fans expense.


Kudos to Colin.


You know we watched Colin, being we live in Reno, grow to be an exciting player under HC Chris Ault and the 'pistol offense' at the University of Nevada Reno (UNR). He was exciting to watch and led the Wolfpack to some really good seasons.  We thought he would do well in the NFL....in the right system. Then....



All this current stuff was started by Kaepernick after he had just converted to Islam and a new girl friend.


He has a muslim girlfriend (who coincidentally is one of the lead members of black lives matters). They hang out with Linda Sansour (one of the main figurehead speakers for the Muslim brotherhood).


So the entire movement started as a muslim action disguised as a racist protest when it isn't really about equality at all. It is to cause hate against our flag and country. Good jobs following a terrorist group that keeps blacks as slaves!!!


Real smart to honor those who oppress blacks and women and then call it equality.


So sad....

Larry, you're better than this. You are quoting a story from ultra right wing WND, who printed this story with admitting that these were unconfirmed reports of conversion

Kaepernick parents deny the rumors and declare their son is a Christian. they point out that Colin was baptized Methodist, confirmed Lutheran and attended a Baptist church during his college years.
On multiple occasions Kaepernick has publicly denied any conversion to Islam, and reaffirms his faith as a Christian.

When speaking of his faith “I think God guides me through every day and helps me take the right steps and has helped me to get to where I’m at. When I step on the field, I always say a prayer, say I am thankful to be able to wake up that morning and go out there and try to glorify the Lord with what I do on the field.”

Kaepernick has a Bible scroll with Psalm 18:39 tattooed on his right arm. Underneath is written “To God be the Glory.”

Is it such a stretch to imagine that it is Kaepernick’s faith, rather than a lack thereof, that is inspiring him to kneel during the national anthem?
From what I have been able to find, Kaepernick first chose to sit for the anthem, then changed his mind to kneel to show greater respect for the American military, after a conversation with a veteran..

To kneel is to show respect. To make a statement. To humble oneself.



Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: The GM on October 10, 2017, 09:23:58 PM
Glad to see Jerry Jones come to his senses.  Looks like the Dolphins owner is joining in too. Kneel for the anthem, you wont play.   Looks like this will be a topic at the owners meeting coming up.  NFL is looking at making players stand for the anthem
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 10, 2017, 09:45:20 PM
B I am probably more familiar with anyone here on Colin's career starting in college. I don't need articles or social media to tell me that he had a great future coming out of college entering the NFL.


He was the consumate person/athlete coming out of UNR, even with all the tatoos that he had in college. Not only a great athlete but also an intelligent young man with the sky the limit. He was a role model not only for kids but also appreciated by adults.


Something changed, and obviously not for the best, and now he can not back peddle out of where he and some others have taken him. Maybe he doesn't want to. So sad....


I can't find much support for him but did find another similar to the WND article you mentioned.


Muslim now? (https://theundefeated.com/features/colin-kaepernick-mix-of-racism-anti-islam-rhetoric-are-increasingly-toxic/)
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: The GM on October 10, 2017, 10:06:04 PM
B I am probably more familiar with anyone here on Colin's career starting in college. I don't need articles or social media to tell me that he had a great future coming out of college entering the NFL.


He was the consumate person/athlete coming out of UNR, even with all the tatoos that he had in college. Not only a great athlete but also an intelligent young man with the sky the limit. He was a role model not only for kids but also appreciated by adults.


Something changed, and obviously not for the best, and now he can not back peddle out of where he and some others have taken him. Maybe he doesn't want to. So sad....


I can't find much support for him but did find another similar to the WND article you mentioned.


Muslim now? (https://theundefeated.com/features/colin-kaepernick-mix-of-racism-anti-islam-rhetoric-are-increasingly-toxic/)

Kaepernick has already sold out by saying he would stand for the anthem if a team signed him.  He can sit in the stands and kneel all he wants.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: SSG on October 11, 2017, 06:56:20 AM
B I am probably more familiar with anyone here on Colin's career starting in college. I don't need articles or social media to tell me that he had a great future coming out of college entering the NFL.


He was the consumate person/athlete coming out of UNR, even with all the tatoos that he had in college. Not only a great athlete but also an intelligent young man with the sky the limit. He was a role model not only for kids but also appreciated by adults.


Something changed, and obviously not for the best, and now he can not back peddle out of where he and some others have taken him. Maybe he doesn't want to. So sad....


I can't find much support for him but did find another similar to the WND article you mentioned.


Muslim now? (https://theundefeated.com/features/colin-kaepernick-mix-of-racism-anti-islam-rhetoric-are-increasingly-toxic/)

Kaepernick has already sold out by saying he would stand for the anthem if a team signed him.  He can sit in the stands and kneel all he wants.

This absolutely IS NOT true and has been verified by Colin, his girlfriend AND Jason La Canfora the reporter originally credited with the story.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: The GM on October 11, 2017, 07:07:13 AM
B I am probably more familiar with anyone here on Colin's career starting in college. I don't need articles or social media to tell me that he had a great future coming out of college entering the NFL.


He was the consumate person/athlete coming out of UNR, even with all the tatoos that he had in college. Not only a great athlete but also an intelligent young man with the sky the limit. He was a role model not only for kids but also appreciated by adults.


Something changed, and obviously not for the best, and now he can not back peddle out of where he and some others have taken him. Maybe he doesn't want to. So sad....


I can't find much support for him but did find another similar to the WND article you mentioned.


Muslim now? (https://theundefeated.com/features/colin-kaepernick-mix-of-racism-anti-islam-rhetoric-are-increasingly-toxic/)

Kaepernick has already sold out by saying he would stand for the anthem if a team signed him.  He can sit in the stands and kneel all he wants.

This absolutely IS NOT true and has been verified by Colin, his girlfriend AND Jason La Canfora the reporter originally credited with the story.

Point taken.  CBS is backtracking their story.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: ricky on October 11, 2017, 10:41:05 AM
Spin this logic...


https://www.facebook.com/FoxNews/videos/10156119886451336/ (https://www.facebook.com/FoxNews/videos/10156119886451336/)

You mean citizens can't protest at publically funded structures that help make rich people richer?

The question still is out there. Once the NFL demands that players stand for the anthem, is that the end of the issue? Or should there be consequences for those players who decided to protest before this decision was made? And, if there should be consequences, what would you suggest?
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: B on October 11, 2017, 11:11:49 AM
Larry do you read the links that you post?

So far you've been up to articles that talk about on confirmed rumors, even they say they're on confirmed, and then you put them out there as if they're fact.

He supports a movement that calls for racial Justice, he's quite clear aboyt that and never professed otherwise.

I think the fact that if you are black the likelihood of you being shot to death by the police is 5 times more likely then if you're white is certainly enough reason for concern, alarm, and activism. And my thinking that doesn't require me to become a Muslim, which I am not.

And neither is there any evidence that Colin Kaepernick has converted either.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: SSG on October 11, 2017, 12:16:06 PM
Spin this logic...


https://www.facebook.com/FoxNews/videos/10156119886451336/ (https://www.facebook.com/FoxNews/videos/10156119886451336/)

You mean citizens can't protest at publically funded structures that help make rich people richer?

The question still is out there. Once the NFL demands that players stand for the anthem, is that the end of the issue? Or should there be consequences for those players who decided to protest before this decision was made? And, if there should be consequences, what would you suggest?

I don't think its the end of the issue at all.  I don't think the NFL will ever have a ton of success jamming things down the throat of the players.  If they do this, its basically telling the players that they are just assets with no opinions and that they should just fall in line and do exactly what they are told.  Given the massive divide in this country and the fact that it has just been getting bigger and bigger since last November the NFL is going to lose fans and money regardless.   

In the NBA's rule book it says you MUST stand for the NA and I'm pretty sure you are going to see that tested come the start of the NBA season.  It will be interesting to see the consequences of it given that the majority of the NBA are African American players.  Kobe Bryant is already on record saying that if he hadn't retired, he's have been kneeling. 
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: ThatGuy284 on October 11, 2017, 12:25:40 PM
SSG,

Thank you for your posts in this thread.  This is one subject you and I seem to be in complete agreement.  (hope that doesn't force you to reconsider your words!)


 
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 11, 2017, 01:03:35 PM
Larry do you read the links that you post?

So far you've been up to articles that talk about on confirmed rumors, even they say they're on confirmed, and then you put them out there as if they're fact.

He supports a movement that calls for racial Justice, he's quite clear aboyt that and never professed otherwise.

I think the fact that if you are black the likelihood of you being shot to death by the police is 5 times more likely then if you're white is certainly enough reason for concern, alarm, and activism. And my thinking that doesn't require me to become a Muslim, which I am not.

And neither is there any evidence that Colin Kaepernick has converted either.


Of course I read the articles B...but I did not write them.


If you are referring to the article on Kaep I do not refer to it as 'fact' but only to point out that there are 'questions'.


If you didn't read the entire piece here is the last paragraph;


Quote
Kaepernick’s rumored conversion to Islam should be a non-story. However, in an America where anti-Muslim fear and hatred exists and black protest maligned, that position is unfortunately a naïve one. Therefore, Kaepernick stands alone behind center – a black man perceived by many to be a closet Muslim, occupying a position where Islam and blackness as separate and standalone identities are feared, and the two combined, an exponentially greater threat.



Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Leader on October 11, 2017, 01:25:45 PM
Quote
Kaepernick’s rumored conversion to Islam should be a non-story. However, in an America where anti-Muslim fear and hatred exists and black protest maligned, that position is unfortunately a naïve one. Therefore, Kaepernick stands alone behind center – a black man perceived by many to be a closet Muslim, occupying a position where Islam and blackness as separate and standalone identities are feared, and the two combined, an exponentially greater threat.

Well where have we heard this before? HA! It's like political porn. Once you find what gets your audience "excited" keep giving it to them. They'll take care of the rest in form of a RW circle jerk.

And this disclaimer: "Of course I read the articles.....but I didnt write them....and dont refer to it as fact....but just that there are questions".....is nothing more than Trumps oft stated "Some people are saying" application to all sort of stupidity.

Amazing.

Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 11, 2017, 01:43:18 PM
Why has this been all about Trump lately? Because he had the nads to speak up about how the players were disrespecting in uniform our flag, anthem and military/vets in stadiums on game days when no one else supposdly in charge (NFL, Team owners) would?


The NFL let this issue go on since Kaep started all this 'protesting'....shame on them...and now they are trying to find a way to calm the fans down that don't agree with them and are doing their own protesting.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Leader on October 11, 2017, 02:01:07 PM
Why has this been all about Trump lately? Because he had the nads to speak up about how the players were disrespecting in uniform our flag, anthem and military/vets in stadiums on game days when no one else supposdly in charge (NFL, Team owners) would?

No - its about Trump because he made it about him.

FACT: Please jot it down cause you seem to have lost is somewhere in fantasy land. BEFORE Trump decided to get you all hot an bothered, a grand total of 10 players were protesting in some form/fashion.

Oh. My. Goodness.
The. Country. Will. Collapse.

So - Trump in his usual fashion decided to pull your chain with "God, Mother, USA and Apple pie" diversion - fire the (Black) SOB's - and you've firmly taken hold of the baton and done the rest yourselves.

There's "nads" involved - thats for certain - they're yours. Trumps got firm hold of them and you're responding exactly as he planned.

I suspect some sort of agreement will be reached - one which supports the players grievance about racial inequality in some manner or another. GOOD. Glad to see it. The protests will have worked.

And the country will still be standing.
That is if the Nitwit In Chief doesnt get a hankering to start WW3. Amazing.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: The GM on October 11, 2017, 03:34:57 PM
Why has this been all about Trump lately? Because he had the nads to speak up about how the players were disrespecting in uniform our flag, anthem and military/vets in stadiums on game days when no one else supposdly in charge (NFL, Team owners) would?

Agree,  its about people disrespecting the flag.  It doesnt matter WHAT they are protesting, it doesnt belong attached to the anthem and the flag.

The NFL meets next week to discuss this.  My guess is they will look for ways to meet the social issues/needs of players.  However, I believe they will require all players to stand for the anthem and will discuss a punishment for those that dont.         
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: B on October 11, 2017, 03:56:38 PM
This is the N$L, they  w doill  contortions to try to play both sides of this issue. Even Jerry Jones can talk big, but wait till one of his star players violates. Let's see if he stands behind his big words.

I wonder if Jerry thought he was honoring the flag when he did everything he could to avoid serving in Vietnam?

Kneeling and or linking arms in unity has never before been framed as dishonoring. Or does that just apply to black and brown folks? Historically it has always been seen as great reverence.

I look forward to hearing you guy's outrage when someone flys the traitorous confederate flag or when flags are put on hats for retail purposes.

You all will be consistent - right?
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: SSG on October 11, 2017, 06:41:53 PM
Why has this been all about Trump lately? Because he had the nads to speak up about how the players were disrespecting in uniform our flag, anthem and military/vets in stadiums on game days when no one else supposdly in charge (NFL, Team owners) would?


The NFL let this issue go on since Kaep started all this 'protesting'....shame on them...and now they are trying to find a way to calm the fans down that don't agree with them and are doing their own protesting.

First, its not about Trump.  He unfortunately wanted to be about himself when he attacked the players, their mothers and the league.  In the long run, his attack was never about the flag rather his hatred for the NFL and their turning him away as a potential owner.  He's got a long storied history of being anti-NFL.

Kaepernick DID NOT BREAK A RULE.  You can't just censor everyone that offends you.  Its dangerous waters to start censoring everyone that you don't agree with.

It doesn't take "nads" to attack a protestor because you don't agree with them.  It takes "nads" to address the issue that they are protesting about.  Trump has yet to make one single comment about why they are protesting.  He's yet to offer any help for their cause instead, he cowardly attacked the individuals protesting. If he wasn't so interested in dividing this country and destroying equality, he would have been in position to help the cause instead of making it 10X worse. 
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 11, 2017, 07:43:34 PM


SSG...You do realize that was more than 30 years ago when Donald Trump bought a franchise in the upstart United States Football League....but whatever if it fits your arguement.


It all comes down to the NFL and their Teams doing their job as a business instead of trying to be 'politically correct'.


If they would have been doing their job last year we wouldn't be going through this crap now.


People can spin this any way they want to promote their narratives but what it is is that the players have no right to be protesting in uniform, in stadiums, on game days, in front of fans that paid big money to watch a professional football game.


The players are employees, not owners, of the venue in which they are protesting. The nfl and their teams have no backbone in enforcing the rights they have.


I'm in no way trying to change peoples political affiliation...hardly. Just saying that the players are using the nfl stadiums on game day in uniform trying to promote their protest and that is NOT OK.



ONE MORE TIME: I have no problem with the NFL players wanting to demonstrate against something. The problem is they are taking advantage of their place of employment on football days in uniform and are disrespecting our flag, national anthem and most importantly all the men and women who gave their service and many many who gave their lives for our flag and Country.


If you can't see that then take your blinders off after getting your heads out of the sand.


Some want to blame OUR President for this recent uprising by the players...far from the truth. President Trump provided the impetus, hopefully, to get the league and owners to take action to show the players and their union that they are out of line on this one.


No matter what your political affiliation if you can't see this it's is just sad.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: SSG on October 11, 2017, 09:07:18 PM
LMG..... No, its not just my story.  Yes, Trump bought the New Jersey Generals after failing to get into the NFL.  Trump also moved to have the USFL games moved from the Spring to the fall to compete with the NFL.   He also headed an antitrust lawsuit against the NFL that all but tanked the league after a $3 judgement and a bank amount drained by the legal fees.  He failed to get into the NFL again in 2014 and has been attacking the league ever since.  I'm not making this up to fit an agenda, all one has to do is look at Trump's twitter page.  Whether its the NFL's fight against concussions or some of their new rule changes, he's been attacking the league ever since he was spurned.  That's not a fabrication, its in his twitter history.

I'm not tracking.  Did all 32 teams not play 16 regular season games last year?  Was there not a playoff and eventually a Super Bowl?  Is it not the NFL's job to produce football games?  Is it not the players jobs to play football?  Enlighten me Larry, name me one player who decided not to play football last year in favor of protesting?  Name me one team who didn't play 16 games in favor of protesting? The NFL made BILLIONS of dollars last year, I think they did their job and they did it quite well.

The players have every to do what they are doing.  There is NOTHING in the rule book that says that they are breaking any rules.  You don't get to arbitrarily make up rules because you are offended and refuse to look at the situation through any eyes but your own.  You don't get to censor hundreds of players because you are offended.

The NFL went from 10 protestors to over 200 after the President attacked the players and their families.  The fact that you don't believe he has any sort of blame in this just tells me how ridiculously blind you are too his antics. 

Reality is, there is nothing NFL players can do.  As long as they are a target of President Trump they will be on the bad end of some of the most vile, racist hatred ever associated with professional athletes.  It doesn't matter how much good they do, because they have a differing opinion about how to protest they will be the scum of the earth to most Trump supporters.  I can't believe that so many people have such a strong opinion against unity.  Its almost 2018 and we have half the country fighting to keep division and against equality.   

My head isn't in the sand.  If it was I'd be attempting to take the easy way out by telling the players to shut up, fall in line and deal with it.  The easy way out would be telling players to stop kneeling for the NA and flag, something I've served for for the last 6,321 days.  The easy way out is ignoring the social injustice that is going on in this country because I'm a white male that has never needed to worry about some of the same issues that some of my comrades, soldiers and friends have had to deal with.  Equity issues should be uncomfortable because that is the ONLY way there will ever be any sort of positive change. 

I think this conversation has run its course.  Neither one of us are going to change each others minds. 
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: The GM on October 12, 2017, 06:25:42 AM
Complete nonsense.  New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft and Dallas Owner Jerry Jones among other owners are good friends with Donald Trump and have contributed millions to his campaign.   They have family dinners together with the Krafts.   Why would they do that if he was trying to take down the NFL and have this hatred for the league?  My God people, pull your head out.  You have to be pretty wrapped around the axle to come up with stupid stuff like that.   

A President of the United States saying players should stand for the National Anthem isnt racist, sexist, marxist., communist or any other "ist".    Its patriotic.  Making it out to be anything more than that is pure delusion.   
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: ThatGuy284 on October 12, 2017, 09:27:23 AM
There's just so much irony and hypocrisy in this World - none of us immune, only some of us aware.

I think this country has a few too many social media and internet Patriotic Super Heroes.   One of my best friends is this guy and I tease him regularly for it.  In public standing for the flag, hand on heart.  Maybe a little flag lapel pin or a little American flag waving in the front yard - 90% of which are improperly displayed. In private - beer in hand, feet on couch or treating the National Anthem as their last opportunity to make some nachos or take a leak.  Or maybe spending those couple minutes banging out a couple pre-game must-read messages on your favorite fansite forum thread.  I've repeatedly seen the argument, "this is a workplace, it's different than what you do in private."   Why?   Is your Patriotism purely a show, only to be displayed around other people or only to be displayed if required by your employer?   Do I need to be present to witness your awesome display of patriotism to recognize you must really love this country.   Or do you actually give a s&*t?

Claiming I can't possibly watch or enjoy a down of football anymore because a player quietly knelt during a time I usually reserve to pee or get a fresh beer when at home

I've been to a couple NFL games around the country the last few weeks and recently saw a high school game.  At the last two games I've been to I've watched "patriots" in the stands actively booing and catcalling players that were kneeling and/or holding a fist up during the National Anthem.   Does it not strike anyone as hypocritical or ironic to boo people quietly kneeling because they are incredibly disrespectful and to do so DURING the National Anthem?

Claiming any anthem protest has "lost it's meaning" and is now a distraction from it's original purpose while being the person that has actively sought to run from it's purpose or has actively tried to re-frame the player's actions/arguments.   It's okay to tune out First Take, whatever sports radio station you listen to or whatever News station you listen to and independently choose to form your own opinion or independently TRY TO LISTEN.   Stop blaming others for becoming a distraction - you are that distraction

Want to be a public voice for "family values"?  At the same time having a browser history full of porn and/or mistress you've texted to encourage an abortion. 

Attack an elitist big-money donating Hollywood democratic serial sexual predator while electing the same as President.   (feel free to flip that to Roger Ailes and Bill Clinton should you like)

Want to Champion the 1st Amendment by holding up Eminem as a demigod but "I will burn this campus to the ground if Ann Coulter is allowed to speak!"   (as an aside -
"The Storm" really is a beautiful tune and Coulter is the devil incarnate - but the 1st Amendment says both should have their voices heard in this country)

Praising Breitbart and InfoWars and Fox News and Limbaugh and Bannon (or HuffPost and MSN and Olberman and Sharpton) as "Fair and Balanced" while condemning the others as "Fake News".    Using those sites as your sole source of information, parroting any coverage they have and claiming oneself as an "independent thinker"

Claiming the NFL is just about the $ - but that Donald Trump guy - he really cares!  Reading numerous examples by others in previous posts detailing Trump's disdain for our military yet holding him up as some bastion of Patriotism.  POW's aren't heroes and I'm way smarter than those generals (I've got all the words) and those people kneeling hate our military and country!

Claiming Donald Trump cares about you or anything other than himself and his family's bottom line or claiming Donald Trump is a rallying cry for Patriotism! rather than trying to find ways to stir his base, raise some donations ($$) and get someone, anyone to feed his need to be cheered over anything while his entire presidency has been an abject embarrassing failure

OKAY - the last one was just gratuitous for me :)
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Thom_Tedson on October 12, 2017, 11:41:42 AM
A President of the United States saying players should stand for the National Anthem isnt racist, sexist, marxist., communist or any other "ist".    Its patriotic.  Making it out to be anything more than that is pure delusion.   

Here's another "ist" for you: fascist

A fascist is a follower of a political philosophy characterized by authoritarian views and a strong central government — and no tolerance for opposing opinions.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Kepler on October 12, 2017, 11:51:24 AM
A President of the United States saying players should stand for the National Anthem isnt racist, sexist, marxist., communist or any other "ist".    Its patriotic.  Making it out to be anything more than that is pure delusion.   

Here's another "ist" for you: fascist

A fascist is a follower of a political philosophy characterized by authoritarian views and a strong central government — and no tolerance for opposing opinions.

Bolded part is why we're at risk of a fascist coup. Blows my mind that the way we would slip into a fascist regime isn't by violent military intervention, but with the support of a third of the country. Anyone here watched any of the Handmaid's Tale on Hulu? Christian fundamentalists and the alt right will see we go the same way. Welcome to the theocratic authoritarian regime of Gilead! Public hangings for dissenters and no rights for anyone except the white elite. That is the slope we are on right now. Mark it down.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: The GM on October 12, 2017, 12:07:10 PM
Complete garbage.  Every president has had their positions.  Trump and his "lack of tolerance for other views" has met with Schumer and Pelosi and made agreements on immigration and other issues.  Dont worry though, there are other brain dead idiots peddling the same fascist labeling crap.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Pat22 on October 12, 2017, 02:09:08 PM
September 24, 2017 will go down in history as the day the NFL died. It died because its pampered, babied, overgrown millionaires showed an utter lack of respect for their country and their flag and insulted every working American who buys tickets to watch them play a game.
 
It died because players, coaches, and owners alike insulted a country that gave them the opportunity to make an obscene amount of money that almost everyone in the stands can only dream of. They insulted a supposedly racist country in which African-American athletes make millions of dollars playing in a league in which 68% of the players are black. Their lack of gratitude is staggering, grotesque, and utterly offensive.
 
To make matters worse, these players chose National Gold Star Mother's and Family's Day to diss America, a day set aside by Congress to remember the families of those who paid the last full measure of devotion for our security, our safety, and our freedom.
 
Easily the defining moment of the day came in London, where the Baltimore Ravens and the Jacksonville Jaguars played the NFL's annual game in the United Kingdom. The players – along with the Muslim owner of the Jaguars – locked arms and refused to honor America's national anthem but stood as one in respectful attention while the national anthem of the UK was being played. They would not honor the "Star-Spangled Banner" but stood in honor of "God Save the Queen." That moment, that moment right there, is the moment the NFL died.
 
It should be noted that the 17 Ravens and Jaguar players who defied their country's flag on foreign soil make a combined $448,373,425, an amount greater than the gross domestic product of a number of the world's nations.
 
In America, three teams (the Pittsburgh Steelers, the Seattle Seahawks, and the Tennessee Titans) stayed in the locker rooms for the playing of the national anthem, despite the fact that NFL policy requires them to be fined for doing so. (An NFL official told ESPN the feeble and weak-kneed head office has no interest in imposing any fines at all.) But the truth is if the NFL can fine entire teams for disrespecting the flag, they can certainly fine individual players for doing the same thing.
 
Only one player for the Steelers, former Army Ranger Alejandro Villanueva, a veteran of three tours in Afghanistan, came out of the locker room and stood at attention for the national anthem. The rest of the Steelers hid like surly cowards in the bowels of the stadium while the rest of the stadium honored America. By the count of the Associated Press, across the league over 200 players dissed their nation and their flag yesterday.
 
Thirty-two Denver Broncos took a knee, and LeSean McCoy of the Buffalo Bills nonchalantly did his stretching exercises during the anthem. Black Power salutes are now common not only on the sidelines but during the game in celebration of sacks, interceptions, and touchdowns. If the NFL does not get a handle on this right now, it's going to get ugly as new forms of angry protest are devised.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on October 12, 2017, 02:21:27 PM
After nearly 400 separate posts on this subject, the huge thread on this subject was was finally put to bed. Essentially, it still simmers on in another thread in the Rant and Vent board. I suggest you continue it there, if anywhere, it certainly doesn't need to be resurrected yet again here.

Ah, it has now been moved to R&V. My thanks to the mods.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: OnaBadger58 on October 12, 2017, 02:49:00 PM
Why has this been all about Trump lately? Because he had the nads to speak up about how the players were disrespecting in uniform our flag, anthem and military/vets in stadiums on game days when no one else supposdly in charge (NFL, Team owners) would?


The NFL let this issue go on since Kaep started all this 'protesting'....shame on them...and now they are trying to find a way to calm the fans down that don't agree with them and are doing their own protesting.
Do you know how many players were on their knee during the anthem week 1? That would be one player who knelt (and 4 players that sat on the bench). This was becoming a non-issue before Trump came storming in calling out players. Now Kaepernick's message is completely diluted and it has become a dividing issue since Trump threw fuel to the fire that was burning out.

Kaepernick used his platform to get his message across. Racism is real. Police brutality is real. Oppression is real. Would his message been as strong if he protested and sent a message after the game or on Twitter? Absolutely not. That is why he used this time to protest. Because this is a real issue that needs to be addressed.  Nate Boyer, a Green Beret and former player, told him to knee because that's a way to show a sign of repsect.

I just don't understand how this gets turned into such an anti-American protest. It's truly unfortunate that Kapernick has all the right intentions, yet he gets crucified for trying to make America a better place for everyone.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: ricky on October 12, 2017, 02:51:02 PM
After nearly 400 separate posts on this subject, the huge thread on this subject was was finally put to bed. Essentially, it still simmers on in another thread in the Rant and Vent board. I suggest you continue it there, if anywhere, it certainly doesn't need to be resurrected yet again here.

How dare you stifle discussion! This issue is bigger than anything in the history of the world! We need to  deadhorse) deadhorse) deadhorse) deadhorse) deadhorse) deadhorse) deadhorse) deadhorse) deadhorse) deadhorse) deadhorse) deadhorse) deadhorse) deadhorse) deadhorse) deadhorse) deadhorse)
until we're all  crazy) banghead censs2 hysterical crazy) banghead rant rant banghead censs2 hysterical crazy) rant banghead censs2 hysterical crazy)

I actually wrote out then deleted a long rant. It made me feel better, but no one needs to read my temper tantrums. Perhaps others could take this lesson to heart.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on October 12, 2017, 03:31:39 PM
I actually wrote out then deleted a long rant. It made me feel better, but no one needs to read my temper tantrums. Perhaps others could take this lesson to heart.

Back when I was a mod on another board (many years ago, now), I would rip off a blazing reply to a post I strongly disagreed with, calling down the wrath of the gods - very satisfying. Then having got it out of my system somewhat, I deleted it, and either posted nothing, or typed another, much milder, more respectful answer. I know exactly where you are coming from ricky.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Kepler on October 12, 2017, 03:32:26 PM
Complete garbage.  Every president has had their positions.  Trump and his "lack of tolerance for other views" has met with Schumer and Pelosi and made agreements on immigration and other issues.  Dont worry though, there are other brain dead idiots peddling the same fascist labeling crap.

Trump's too stupid to orchestrate anything of that magnitude. The people behind him are a different story however. I wouldn't be surprised if they want Trump to be impeached so Pence can take over, which is even more scary. He's pushing for theocracy.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Kepler on October 12, 2017, 03:33:57 PM
Why has this been all about Trump lately? Because he had the nads to speak up about how the players were disrespecting in uniform our flag, anthem and military/vets in stadiums on game days when no one else supposdly in charge (NFL, Team owners) would?


The NFL let this issue go on since Kaep started all this 'protesting'....shame on them...and now they are trying to find a way to calm the fans down that don't agree with them and are doing their own protesting.
Do you know how many players were on their knee during the anthem week 1? That would be one player who knelt (and 4 players that sat on the bench). This was becoming a non-issue before Trump came storming in calling out players. Now Kaepernick's message is completely diluted and it has become a dividing issue since Trump threw fuel to the fire that was burning out.

Kaepernick used his platform to get his message across. Racism is real. Police brutality is real. Oppression is real. Would his message been as strong if he protested and sent a message after the game or on Twitter? Absolutely not. That is why he used this time to protest. Because this is a real issue that needs to be addressed.  Nate Boyer, a Green Beret and former player, told him to knee because that's a way to show a sign of repsect.

I just don't understand how this gets turned into such an anti-American protest. It's truly unfortunate that Kapernick has all the right intentions, yet he gets crucified for trying to make America a better place for everyone.

It's just plain old racism. Murica
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 12, 2017, 05:06:11 PM

It’s NFL Owners’ Job — Not the President’s — to Control Their Employees. 

When the NFL didn't do their job somebody had to say something and somebody did!! Some say owe but before Trump commented there was only 1 or 10 that were protesting and a non-issue!! Now after Trump's comments all of a sudden there is a bigger group and it's Trump's fault!! That is delushional reasoning!!


Where were all these additional players now protesting before??


It doesn't matter if it was just 1 or 10+ players doing their protesting, most probably not even knowing why. Players, or anyone else, that want to protest something that is your right but you don't do it on company time and in the case of the football players making it worse by disrespecting the flag, national anthem and the vets/military on game days in stadiums, where they are an employee not an owner, and all this in uniform. How sad that some can't read and understand facts.


But could everyday workers be fired for expressing their opinions at the office?


Here’s what experts say:


Does the First Amendment protect my right to share political opinions and keep my job?


The short answer: If you’re not a government employee: No.


More below from credible but informed unnamed sources;

Quotes;


"The NFL, trapped in a box of its own making, is desperate to find some graceful way out.  But there really is none.  If, as expected, the league orders all players to stand during the Anthem, one player has already predicted an "uproar," and many on the left will immediately scream "racism!"


We see it already.  After Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones said that his players will stand, the charming Al Sharpton said Jones has a "plantation mentality."  The rapper Common went farther, accusing Jones of acting like a "slave owner."  Even sports pundit Michael Wilbon, usually a reasonable guy, trotted out the "plantation" analogy.


Are these people serious?  Unfortunately, they are.  But they are kneeling on very shaky legal ground.  Any attorney remotely familiar with First Amendment law will tell you that Jerry Jones is a private employer who can make and enforce the rules in his workplace, which just happens to be the stadium.  Same for Roger Goodell and the NFL.


One player who has emerged as a very articulate spokesperson for the protesters is Eric Reid of the San Francisco 49ers.  He asserts that players have a constitutional right to protest, which they do, but not in the arena.


Doesn’t the First Amendment also apply to NFL players?


NFL players are in the same legal position of any private-sector employee with respect to their First Amendment rights, Merrick Rossein a professor of law and former acting dean of CUNY Law School in New York said. Owners of NFL teams may even have additional rights to fire players, according to the terms players sign in their contracts, giving the owners “great leeway,” Rossein said.


Owners may be able to argue that they should be able to fire players who do not conduct themselves on and off the field appropriately, he said. NFL players are part of a union, the NFL Players Association, which may give players additional protections. Representatives for the union have said they support the players’ rights to protest.


“Those opinions are protected speech and a freedom that has been paid for by the sacrifice of men and women throughout history,” said the association’s executive director DeMaurice Smith. “No worker, nor any athlete — professional or not — should be forced to become less than human when it comes to protecting their basic health and safety. We understand that our job as a union is not to win a popularity contest and it comes with a duty to protect the rights of our members.”


NFL team owners thus far have also seemingly defended the players. “Instead of using their right to fire, the owners elevated the First Amendment principles of protest to support their players,” Rossein said."


End Quotes
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Leader on October 12, 2017, 05:25:28 PM

http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2017/10/12/lance-kendricks-explains-why-he-sat-protest-national-anthem/758388001/
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 12, 2017, 07:17:38 PM
Good for Lance to be pro active in his donation.


Maybe he should also consider on their days off going out in the stadiums parking lots, or rent a venue of their choosing and hold rallies, in their street clothes and link arms, kneel or whatever else they want to protest or...start some charities that would benefit their concerns...how about visiting some of the oppressed areas in our Country they are championing for and do something good for the people there.


I'm sure the players can come up with some more examples where they can help.


Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 12, 2017, 07:23:27 PM
Lost in the uproar over the NFL sideline protests against police brutality are newly released statistics showing that the threat to black men is skyrocketing — not from trigger-happy or racist cops, but from crime.


Players need to better informed and take their protests out of the stadiums taking their disrespecting of OUR Country with them.


Article... (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/12/nfl-protests-overlook-black-homicide-rise/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS)
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Leader on October 13, 2017, 07:11:18 AM
In an unusual and public call to arms, a Los Angeles Chargers lineman said he would post a letter online Friday morning urging the league’s 1,700 players to take a unified stand against pressure from N.F.L. team owners to curb demonstrations during the national anthem before games.

“We can either wait until we receive our respective marching orders, speak up individually, or find a way to collaborate, and exercise our agency as the lifeblood of the league.....I’m about shifting the narrative. We can’t be distracted by what he (Trump) is trying to do,” Okung said of the president. “We’re honing our voice. We’re not unified against Trump, we’re unified against social injustice.”


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/sports/russell-okung-nfl-anthem-protests-trump.html?mtrref=t.co
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 13, 2017, 09:31:14 AM

Quote
"According to Deadline Hollywood, this week’s Thursday night game between the Philadelphia Eagles and Carolina Panthers continued the league’s ratings disaster, down at least 5% from just a week ago and down nearly 10% from this time last season.


More troubling for the NFL was CBS decision to not-air the performance of the ‘Star-Spangled Banner’ during the pre-game ceremonies, instead cutting to the game as players rushed the field."


This must be the NFL and Network TV's answer on how to handle the player protests....how sad!!
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Leader on October 13, 2017, 10:26:27 AM

Quote
"According to Deadline Hollywood, this week’s Thursday night game between the Philadelphia Eagles and Carolina Panthers continued the league’s ratings disaster, down at least 5% from just a week ago and down nearly 10% from this time last season.


More troubling for the NFL was CBS decision to not-air the performance of the ‘Star-Spangled Banner’ during the pre-game ceremonies, instead cutting to the game as players rushed the field."


This must be the NFL and Network TV's answer on how to handle the player protests....how sad!!

Fine. As I've said previously, if you're so troubled by the 10 players who were silent for a 2minute period once a week....if those 2minutes were so problematic for you that enjoyment of the game was impossible - skip those 2minutes.

Well, that was too easy a resolution and now we've got Trump marshaling up the indignant RW and conflating it beyond its purpose.
Oh well. Its your "reality" now. You'll have to live with it. Or not.

I expect the league and the NFLPA will come to some accord thats mutually beneficial. I see that as a good thing. If you dont....if thats not good enough for you, either apply the 2minute boycott - or dont.

Dont watch. If it pains you - dont watch.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 13, 2017, 10:55:14 AM
You like to blame Trump...probably on everything he does...it's obvious.


Again this isn't about Trump...all he has done is call out the disrespecting being done by the players and looks like OK with the NFL. The NFL doesn't and didn't have the backbone to nip this in the bud last year when Kaep started this.


I haven't seen one of these grandstanders take a knee or protest on their own time. I haven't seen much positive activity from any of them...have you!!!


Their protest is no longer bringing awareness to what they feel is important, it is just making them look like spoiled millionaires that want their own way, and they seem to want law enforcement to leave their 'brothers' alone.


You talk about 2 minutes.... would it be so hard for the players/teams to stand hand over heart, helmet in other hand, facing the flag showing respect while the anthem is played?


Don't watch? Please!! What pains me is that the disrespect they and their supporters are showing by protesting in uniform, in stadiums on game days in front of our flag, anthem and military/vets.


Want to protest fine...take it out of your workplace as it is NOT the place!!
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: The GM on October 13, 2017, 11:13:17 AM
You like to blame Trump...probably on everything he does...it's obvious.


Again this isn't about Trump...all he has done is call out the disrespecting being done by the players and looks like OK with the NFL. The NFL doesn't and didn't have the backbone to nip this in the bud last year when Kaep started this.


I haven't seen one of these grandstanders take a knee or protest on their own time. I haven't seen much positive activity from any of them...have you!!!


Their protest is no longer bringing awareness to what they feel is important, it is just making them look like spoiled millionaires that want their own way, and they seem to want law enforcement to leave their 'brothers' alone.


You talk about 2 minutes.... would it be so hard for the players/teams to stand hand over heart, helmet in other hand, facing the flag showing respect while the anthem is played?


Don't watch? Please!! What pains me is that the disrespect they and their supporters are showing by protesting in uniform, in stadiums on game days in front of our flag, anthem and military/vets.

Was
Want to protest fine...take it out of your workplace as it is NOT the place!!

Blaming Trump for this is like blaming the guy who called the fire dept.  Just SMH!!!!!
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Leader on October 13, 2017, 11:22:38 AM
Want to protest fine...take it out of your workplace as it is NOT the place!!

You're not their employer. You're not affiliated with the league in any way. You're nothing but a customer. So either buy it - or dont.
That has *always* been *OUR* relationship to the GBPs or any sports team. Customers. This "outrage" is both out of place and overblown to the size of the protest - that is - until Donald decided to jerk your chain. You're no more patriotic than the next guy - past military involvement or not. You own no special brand of patriotism - than me - the other posters on this board - or the players standing (or kneeling) on NFL sidelines. Tell yourself you do - thats fine - but be certain to douse that fire with reality before you're done.

As for my personal views on Donald - you're right. I have no respect for him whatsoever. The office of the Presidency, our form and structure of government? Yes - indeed I do believe in it - strongly - but not this guy. He's nothing but a lying, draft dodging, corrupt money launder with racist tendencies who holds no "insight" (or knowledge) of our way of government greater then how to "work it" to enrich his family.

It's entirely non-partisan with me. I've no problem with Republicans - its their programs I may disagree with - but this guy's an imposter who's resume for this job was (and remains) woefully lacking. He's a nitwit of the first degree. But thats a separate subject and not for discussion here or with you.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 13, 2017, 11:58:28 AM
I voiced my opinions and personally get blasted for them...typical.


You are right though I am not their employer and the players are not either...the nfl IS but not acting like an employer.


Nothing in the rest of your rant is worth replying to.



Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Leader on October 13, 2017, 12:17:14 PM
I voiced my opinions and personally get blasted for them...typical.


You are right though I am not their employer and the players are not either...the nfl IS but not acting like an employer.


Nothing in the rest of your rant is worth replying to.

Dont feel sorry for yourself as it clouds judgement. Pre-Donald less than a dozen players were voicing their opinions and you took it upon yourself to question their patriotism and declare "Not in my house" foolishness. Take it outside. Well - regardless of how long you've been a fan - its not your house.  Never was. Never will be. Not living in WI or Green Bay, I've not had the pleasure of romping around the old stadium and such - those memories I do not possess - but I've been a "fan" of one team in my entire life - the GBPs.

So what? That doesnt afford me any special place or position to castigate these players or challenge their integrity or patriotism. Not in the least.

Its a labor matter and (as stated) I suspect the league and players will reach some accord. I can only hope you'll find peace with that. If not - oh well. Stay angry.   

Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on October 13, 2017, 12:29:13 PM
I'll repeat what I posted elsewhere, as it is to the point. Remove the National Anthem from every game.

It isn't an International event (USA vs another country), and if you can think of  better way to defuse a very awkward situation, I'd like to hear it. I don't know when the National Anthem started preceding every game, but it hasn't always been played first.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Leader on October 13, 2017, 01:09:34 PM
I'll repeat what I posted elsewhere, as it is to the point. Remove the National Anthem from every game.

It isn't an International event (USA vs another country), and if you can think of  better way to defuse a very awkward situation, I'd like to hear it. I don't know when the National Anthem started preceding every game, but it hasn't always been played first.

Good thinking - but apparently not acceptable - as indicated by the outrage that CBS apparently didnt show the NA before last nights game.

"More troubling for the NFL was CBS decision to not-air the performance of the ‘Star-Spangled Banner’ during the pre-game ceremonies, instead cutting to the game as players rushed the field"
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: ThatGuy284 on October 13, 2017, 01:19:49 PM
Good for Lance to be pro active in his donation.


Maybe he should also consider on their days off going out in the stadiums parking lots, or rent a venue of their choosing and hold rallies, in their street clothes and link arms, kneel or whatever else they want to protest or...start some charities that would benefit their concerns...how about visiting some of the oppressed areas in our Country they are championing for and do something good for the people there.


I'm sure the players can come up with some more examples where they can help.


They are already doing this!! YOU are not paying attention and YOU will not pay attention until they bring the attention to you. 

The notion that the only action/statement/contribution that these players make is strictly limited to protesting a cause during the National Anthem is complete BS!  The notion that anything will change if they would just protest somewhere they won't be seen or heard?   Ummmm...so sad. (apparently it's mandatory for statements to end this way now)

Many/most players are actively involved in various causes and charities.  Are actively involved in attending local schools, Women's shelters, children's hospitals, etc.  They have been at various rallies around the country to lend support to these causes, they have been active on twitter to denounce these causes.  I have volunteered at shelters and watched players serving next to me, I have watched players reading to my children at school and listened to them speak on the importance of unity, equality and family.   YOU are not paying attention and YOU are not listening
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: The GM on October 13, 2017, 01:40:29 PM
I'll repeat what I posted elsewhere, as it is to the point. Remove the National Anthem from every game.

It isn't an International event (USA vs another country), and if you can think of  better way to defuse a very awkward situation, I'd like to hear it. I don't know when the National Anthem started preceding every game, but it hasn't always been played first.

Great way to kill the NFL if thats the plan.  Getting rid of the anthem will set off a firestorm in the country in which the NFL might not recover.   People are pissed at the kneeling, getting rid of the anthem will sink the NFL as we know it.  People will turn that crap right off.     The country is sick of  protests,  police brutality myths (not all) that start riots before the facts come out.  half the players dont even know what they are protesting, cant define it, or even know what they want.   

The best way is to keep all the players in the lockerroom until after the anthem, have the teams work on some pointed community outreach issues off the field.    We'll get more clarity after the owners meeting coming up next week on what they want to do..
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: ricky on October 13, 2017, 01:49:26 PM
For your consideration:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/10/13/kraft-trump-remarks-were-a-little-inflammatory-and-inappropriate/
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: OnaBadger58 on October 13, 2017, 02:04:09 PM
Good for Lance to be pro active in his donation.


Maybe he should also consider on their days off going out in the stadiums parking lots, or rent a venue of their choosing and hold rallies, in their street clothes and link arms, kneel or whatever else they want to protest or...start some charities that would benefit their concerns...how about visiting some of the oppressed areas in our Country they are championing for and do something good for the people there.


I'm sure the players can come up with some more examples where they can help.


They are already doing this!! YOU are not paying attention and YOU will not pay attention until they bring the attention to you. 

The notion that the only action/statement/contribution that these players make is strictly limited to protesting a cause during the National Anthem is complete BS!  The notion that anything will change if they would just protest somewhere they won't be seen or heard?   Ummmm...so sad. (apparently it's mandatory for statements to end this way now)

Many/most players are actively involved in various causes and charities.  Are actively involved in attending local schools, Women's shelters, children's hospitals, etc.  They have been at various rallies around the country to lend support to these causes, they have been active on twitter to denounce these causes.  I have volunteered at shelters and watched players serving next to me, I have watched players reading to my children at school and listened to them speak on the importance of unity, equality and family.   YOU are not paying attention and YOU are not listening
After searching online for two minutes. Just because you don't hear these stories doesn't mean they don't exist. There are so many athletes that are involved in their communities.

Kaepernick donation:
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/08/colin-kaepernick-nfl-national-anthem-protest-one-million-dollar-pledge-donations-empower-communities (http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/08/colin-kaepernick-nfl-national-anthem-protest-one-million-dollar-pledge-donations-empower-communities)

Michael Bennett donation:
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18863458/michael-bennett-seattle-seahawks-donate-endorsement-money-2017 (http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18863458/michael-bennett-seattle-seahawks-donate-endorsement-money-2017)

One of Martellus' many donations:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/03/25/martellus-bennett-to-donate-jersey-sales-profit/ (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/03/25/martellus-bennett-to-donate-jersey-sales-profit/)

Richard Sherman foundation:
https://www.richardsherman25.com/pages/foundation (https://www.richardsherman25.com/pages/foundation)

Patrick Peterson foundation and community work:
https://www.revengeofthebirds.com/2017/9/27/16372530/patrick-peterson-dominates-on-the-field-and-in-the-community-for-the-arizona-cardinals (https://www.revengeofthebirds.com/2017/9/27/16372530/patrick-peterson-dominates-on-the-field-and-in-the-community-for-the-arizona-cardinals)
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on October 13, 2017, 02:10:02 PM
I'll repeat what I posted elsewhere, as it is to the point. Remove the National Anthem from every game.

It isn't an International event (USA vs another country), and if you can think of  better way to defuse a very awkward situation, I'd like to hear it. I don't know when the National Anthem started preceding every game, but it hasn't always been played first.

Great way to kill the NFL if thats the plan.

Uh-huh.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: SSG on October 13, 2017, 05:30:25 PM
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21003968/nfl-2017-ex-green-beret-nate-boyer-writes-open-letter-president-donald-trump-colin-kaepernick-nfl-united-states-america
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 13, 2017, 06:38:50 PM
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21003968/nfl-2017-ex-green-beret-nate-boyer-writes-open-letter-president-donald-trump-colin-kaepernick-nfl-united-states-america (http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21003968/nfl-2017-ex-green-beret-nate-boyer-writes-open-letter-president-donald-trump-colin-kaepernick-nfl-united-states-america)




1 year earlier...2016 (https://www.armytimes.com/opinion/2016/08/30/an-open-letter-to-colin-kaepernick-from-a-green-beret-turned-long-snapper/)
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 13, 2017, 07:11:01 PM

Quote:


"There are many ways to peacefully protest as an NFL player. One of which is to kneel or sit during the national anthem. While it is a constitutional right of the player to do so, it is not acceptable on a grand stage.


As an NFL player, you are expected to give your attention to the flag for our fallen and current troops who protect our country for that short minute and a half during the anthem.


While the players have said directly that they are not disrespecting our troops, that is how many people see the protest. There are no words needed when not standing or paying your respects during the national anthem. A player’s actions will speak much louder than their words.


Players want to be seen and heard as they protest for equality, but the stage on which they are doing so is not correct. That minute and a half is the time that our troops have earned from us by protecting our rights and freedoms.


The players are disrespecting the troops who have fought and currently are fighting for that player’s right to peacefully protest. This is not to say that the players should not protest in some way shape or form if they feel that it needs to be done, but on national television during that honorary moment is not the time nor the place to do so.


Some teams have military veterans on their team. If a member of your team is a military veteran, you owe them the respect to stand during that moment. No matter how you feel about, what has been said by anyone else, you owe your teammate that minute and a half, and if you can’t give them that, then you don’t deserve to be on that NFL field alongside them.


A major problem with players not standing for the national anthem is that it is a part of politics and a political action. While the NFL is a business at the end of the day, the majority of the fans do not want to see football become more political. Fans want to see the sport be played because that is why they pay money to go to the games and watch the sport.


Fans do not buy tickets to the game to watch players kneel during the anthem or express their political opinion. Players can do that in their free time.


Many former fans have expressed that they will no longer be watching or spending money on NFL products because it is simply too political now. While a fan here and there may not seem like a big deal, the bigger picture is there there are so many fans who have stopped watching and paying for the games because they don’t want to see another political event.


According to an NFL memo from Brian Rolapp and Howard Katz, the NFL’s viewership through the first four weeks is down by 11 percent. That is 11 percent in just four short weeks; it will only get worse if these protests continue.


Players need to realize that their actions are causing the NFL to lose views. If the NFL loses views, that means pay cuts for the teams and ultimately the players. So those players making millions and protesting right now will be making less and less over time if they continue these protests.


End Quote


Thanks to Austin Ramirez...my sentiments exactly.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 14, 2017, 09:10:34 PM

The NFL and their Big Liberal Sports Media partners seem to have a new strategy for dealing with the massive fallout and deteriorating attendance/popularity from the BLM-dictated National Anthem controversy.


According to CNN:


Fox and ESPN will not be airing the national anthem live during this weekend’s NFL games.


Fox said the network won’t be showing the anthem live, but that the cameras “are always rolling so if something happens, we will be sure to cover it.” ESPN also said it would not air the anthem live Monday night.


CBS declined to comment and NBC did not respond.


The networks are inevitably facing blowback on social media, exemplified by this comment by “Olucy Olucy” at a Gateway Pundit version of this story:


So rather than the Owners find their baIIs and backbone and tell these overpaid privileged ball-throwers that all employees are required to stand, salute and honor the flag and anthem they’ve taken the chicken-azz way out.


See where the players have taken this!!! How sad!
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Shinesman on October 16, 2017, 12:12:42 AM

The NFL and their Big Liberal Sports Media partners seem to have a new strategy for dealing with the massive fallout and deteriorating attendance/popularity from the BLM-dictated National Anthem controversy.


According to CNN:


Fox and ESPN will not be airing the national anthem live during this weekend’s NFL games.


Fox said the network won’t be showing the anthem live, but that the cameras “are always rolling so if something happens, we will be sure to cover it.” ESPN also said it would not air the anthem live Monday night.


CBS declined to comment and NBC did not respond.


The networks are inevitably facing blowback on social media, exemplified by this comment by “Olucy Olucy” at a Gateway Pundit version of this story:


So rather than the Owners find their baIIs and backbone and tell these overpaid privileged ball-throwers that all employees are required to stand, salute and honor the flag and anthem they’ve taken the chicken-azz way out.


See where the players have taken this!!! How sad!

Pretty sure these guys sign codes of conduct as independent contractors. So why in recent news they feel owners and fans do not have a say in what they do while representing the team is beyond me. When I played in HS, we would have been kicked right off the team for crap like this.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 16, 2017, 08:18:55 PM

The NFL is scheduled to have a meeting on Tuesday to discuss, as Commissioner Goodell puts it, moving “past the anthem controversy.” For CBS, the NFL couldn’t move past the anthem controversy fast enough.
According to Credit Suisse, CBS’ plummeting NFL television ratings will have a direct impact on the company’s earnings.


Credit Suisse cut CBS’ third quarter EPS estimates by 5 percent, due to the network’s struggling Sunday NFL ratings.


According to Credit Suisse analyst Omar Sheikh, “We expect third-quarter network advertising to decline 3 percent (previously +1 percent), driven by soft ratings for both the summer schedule and for the start of the NFL season. With only one of the three content licensing deals we expected for the second half announced in third quarter, we also expect content licensing revenue growth to be skewed to the fourth quarter.”


According to CNBC, “Sheikh maintained his outperform rating and price target on CBS shares, which remains at $75, or 32 percent upside from Friday’s close. He cut his third-quarter EPS estimate to $1.08, below Street consensus estimate of $1.12 from FactSet.


“The analyst said CBS’ Sunday NFL ratings are down 17 percent year over year during the first several weeks of the football season, according to the report. Sheikh released a similar report last week on Twenty-First Century Fox’s earnings, which he also expects to disappoint thanks to weaker ratings by the NFL.”


With earnings projections like these, it’s no wonder that networks recently stopped broadcasting the anthem protests. Of course, these same networks were only too happy to show the anthem protests when they first began. Primarily due to the fact that something newsworthy was happening, and, of course, they agreed with Colin Kaepernick. Now the Frankenstein they’ve created has turned on them.


If only someone had warned them…


Source (https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/16/cbs-earnings-to-disappoint-due-to-weak-nfl-ratings-credit-suisse-says.html?yptr=yahoo)
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: The GM on October 16, 2017, 08:43:45 PM
I would be very careful at the owners meeting this week about mentioning Colin Kaepernick.  Address the anthem issue, but dont mention Kaepernick or anything that would add to his collusion case.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Leader on October 17, 2017, 03:14:17 PM
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21053405/nfl-owners-players-positive-meeting-social-issues

Ian Rapoport:

49ers owner Jed York echoes what many said: There is no discussion of a trade-off for forcing players to stand. There’ll be no rule change.

Jed York: “(Kaep’s) message has been lost. ... More you sit with players & hear what they’re fighting for, it’s hard to disagree with them”

More from #49ers owner Jed York: “This is one of the proudest days” he’s had an an owner. Credits Colin Kaepernick for getting it started.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: ricky on October 17, 2017, 03:35:25 PM
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21053405/nfl-owners-players-positive-meeting-social-issues

Ian Rapoport:

Jed York: “(Kaep’s) message has been lost. ... More you sit with players & hear what they’re fighting for, it’s hard to disagree with them”

More from #49ers owner Jed York: “This is one of the proudest days” he’s had an an owner. Credits Colin Kaepernick for getting it started.

That's the problem. Rather than focusing on the reason for the protest, the focus has been on the protests. Rather than sparking some dialogue about whether there is racial inequality, and what that inequality might entail, and how to address this issue. Instead, the ourtage has been focused on the players and their actions.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: Leader on October 17, 2017, 03:50:16 PM
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21053405/nfl-owners-players-positive-meeting-social-issues

Ian Rapoport:

Jed York: “(Kaep’s) message has been lost. ... More you sit with players & hear what they’re fighting for, it’s hard to disagree with them”

More from #49ers owner Jed York: “This is one of the proudest days” he’s had an an owner. Credits Colin Kaepernick for getting it started.

That's the problem. Rather than focusing on the reason for the protest, the focus has been on the protests. Rather than sparking some dialogue about whether there is racial inequality, and what that inequality might entail, and how to address this issue. Instead, the ourtage has been focused on the players and their actions.

Yup.
Title: Re: Not watching game.
Post by: LMG on October 17, 2017, 04:29:18 PM
Here's what came out of the meeting of some players, their union and the nfl;



Quote
Players have asked the league to address their concerns about criminal justice issues, and the league has lent its support to a bill before Congress on reforming criminal sentencing. That, and not the national anthem, has been the focus today.


Here is part of that bill and a comment;


Quote
The Sentencing Reform and Corrections Act, originally introduced by Sens. Chuck Grassley (R-Ia.) and Dick Durbin (D-Il.) in 2015, would reduce the mandatory-minimum sentencing guidelines for repeat drug offenders without serious violent felonies and would broaden the "safety valve" exception to federal mandatory minimum sentences. It would also add new mandatory minimum sentences for interstate domestic abuse and for providing support for terrorists, while strengthening penalties for certain other crimes.


Quote
"This legislation is the product of more than five years of work on criminal justice reform," Durbin said in a statement. "It's also the best chance in a generation to right the wrongs of a badly broken system. The United States incarcerates more of its citizens than any other country on earth. Mandatory minimum sentences were once seen as a strong deterrent. In reality they have too often been unfair, fiscally irresponsible and a threat to public safety."