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General Category => Rant and Vent => Topic started by: scoremore on October 15, 2017, 04:59:27 PM

Title: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: scoremore on October 15, 2017, 04:59:27 PM
Year after year.  More of the same.  Injuries derailing the Packers season.  McCarthy say injuries are part of the game.  Well yes that's true but being one of the most injured teams in the league year after year after year isn't going to cut it.  Agree some injuries can't be prevented but some can.  How many guys have we lost due to groin pulls and hammies?  That accounts for over half of them. 

This isn't new it's been going on since 2010.  How the Packers can't figure this one out is beyond me.  The players are not being properly conditioned.   Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what is going on.  It's not a problem of coaching it's injuries.  Every single year.  The fire Dom crowd also has to realize he is fielding a defense of JV players because are starters are either on the bench or trying to gut it out.

I have defended McCarthy on numerous occasions.  His weakness is not recognizing problems within the organization and making necessary changes in a timely manner.  This injury situation is not new.  Anyone care to defend the training staff?  I am all ears. 

It's time for a change.  If they have to cough up a few bucks to lure some decent trainers so be it.  #1 on the list next year is to replace the entire training staff.  It finally came to a head today.  Now because the training staff can't get the players properly prepared we are down to 6th and 7th options along the O-line.  Predictably Rodgers gets killed. 

If McCarthy is unwilling to revamp the training staff then it qualifies as gross negligence and he should be sent packing too.  Enough already. 

Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: AZPackfan on October 15, 2017, 05:08:41 PM
I've been wondering about this myself, if the conditioning program is not up to par. We can't see one game it seems without someone having to come out due to an injury.

If this is the case then do whatever it takes.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: Pugger on October 15, 2017, 05:10:17 PM
We aren't the only team ravaged by injuries.  I suspect a lot of this is due to the fact players don't have enough padded practices during the summer and between games.  But yes, the number we get every year is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: Tony on October 15, 2017, 05:22:12 PM
Wouldn’t surprise me if 50 years from now, the game of football as we know it today will cease to exist, or evolves into something much different from what we’re watching now.  With the rise of the CTE issue, among other things, I expect there will come a time when this game will either get watered down severely, or, the equipment will evolve so immensely that players are basically running around in bubbles.  It may not happen in my lifetime - in fact I’m not expecting it to - but I’d be surprised if my great, great granchildren were still watching the NFL.  What will most likely happen is some Harry Potter-esque game will be invented that will sweep the world.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: bartysmithwasgod on October 15, 2017, 05:46:17 PM
I thought I heard a story this past week where someone went back and looked at how many injuries the Packers have had in previous years.  Apparently it is no more than anyone else but like all teams goes in cycles.  If you can find a training staff that can prevent broken bones and non-contact injuries they would be millionaires.  There are probably 15 other teams forums that are looking to get rid of their teams training staff.

Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: ricky on October 15, 2017, 05:57:13 PM
OK, fire the training staff because they don't know what they're doing. No other team has as many injuries as the Packers. So, choose a team, any team, and I'll take the time to look at their injury woes. Seriously. Because we focus on the Packers, unless the guy lost is a "name" like Watt, or Julio Jones or Beckham, Jr., we rarely pay attention. And its not as if this is something that has suddenly become a problem.

ESPN from 2013: http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/10039338/is-nfl-experiencing-injury-epidemic

NFL.com from 2011: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81df8b27/printable/nflpa-says-injuries-increased-in-2010-over-previous-years

And what is to blame for the increase?

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000724489/article/mike-mccarthy-says-2011-cba-is-cause-of-increase-in-injuries

So, this is something that has been happening on a league wide basis for years. So, fire all the training staffs of every team? Because sometimes things just happen.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: RT on October 15, 2017, 06:07:08 PM
Agree that injuries are a league wide problem and has been for awhile. Yet they want to increase the regular season to 18 games. Ya, that will solve that problem.  ::) 
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: pacman5252 on October 15, 2017, 06:08:56 PM
Injuries are part of the game. Some years you are cursed. Look at the last 4 NFC winners;

Seattle- healthy legion of boom (super bowl win)
Seattle- banged up legion. (Super bowl L)
Carolina (healthy this year, sub 500 before and after year after)
Atl- (sub 500 the year before, healthy and made super bowl, now injured and average)

Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: SSGCujo on October 15, 2017, 06:15:58 PM
 Bone and ligament injuries are almost unstoppable, but all the soft tissue injuries? I don't know the answers, but how long does it take to heal?
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: ricky on October 15, 2017, 06:25:05 PM
Bone and ligament injuries are almost unstoppable, but all the soft tissue injuries? I don't know the answers, but how long does it take to heal?

Googled and got an answer in seconds.

The length of time it takes to recover from a hamstring strain or tear will depend on how severe the injury is. A minor muscle pull or strain (grade 1) may take a few days to heal, whereas it could take weeks or months to recover from a muscle tear (grade 2 or 3)

Now, before someone mentions doing more stretching, like yoga, I've been doing yoga for about three years now, two hours a day,  five days a week. And NFL players, even during warmups, are doing some yoga stretches. So, that is being addressed. Again, stuff happens. About a year and a half ago, I tore the meniscus in my right knee. Not severe, but certainly annoying. It happened in my yoga class during the second session, doing an asana I'd done dozens of times before. Did I blame anyone? Nope. Because- repeat as needed- stuff happens. In 2014 the Packers were virtually injury free, and then lost that crushing defeat in Seattle. Because- well, you know.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: Tony on October 15, 2017, 06:28:18 PM
Bone and ligament injuries are almost unstoppable, but all the soft tissue injuries? I don't know the answers, but how long does it take to heal?

Googled and got an answer in seconds.

The length of time it takes to recover from a hamstring strain or tear will depend on how severe the injury is. A minor muscle pull or strain (grade 1) may take a few days to heal, whereas it could take weeks or months to recover from a muscle tear (grade 2 or 3)

Now, before someone mentions doing more stretching, like yoga, I've been doing yoga for about three years now, two hours a day,  five days a week. And NFL players, even during warmups, are doing some yoga stretches. So, that is being addressed. Again, stuff happens. About a year and a half ago, I tore the meniscus in my right knee. Not severe, but certainly annoying. It happened in my yoga class during the second session, doing an asana I'd done dozens of times before. Did I blame anyone? Nope. Because- repeat as needed- stuff happens. In 2014 the Packers were virtually injury free, and then lost that crushing defeat in Seattle. Because- well, you know.

If that’s the case then maybe football’s shelf-life is about to expire unless some serious changes are made - changes that could ultimately make the game a lot less interesting to watch/play?
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: LMG on October 15, 2017, 06:29:12 PM
Lots of people looking for excuses and it's usually 'Fire Somebody'.


Luckily cooler heads prevail with the people that do this for a living!!!
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: Leader on October 15, 2017, 06:29:58 PM
Bone and ligament injuries are almost unstoppable, but all the soft tissue injuries? I don't know the answers, but how long does it take to heal?

Googled and got an answer in seconds.

The length of time it takes to recover from a hamstring strain or tear will depend on how severe the injury is. A minor muscle pull or strain (grade 1) may take a few days to heal, whereas it could take weeks or months to recover from a muscle tear (grade 2 or 3)

Now, before someone mentions doing more stretching, like yoga, I've been doing yoga for about three years now, two hours a day,  five days a week. And NFL players, even during warmups, are doing some yoga stretches. So, that is being addressed. Again, stuff happens. About a year and a half ago, I tore the meniscus in my right knee. Not severe, but certainly annoying. It happened in my yoga class during the second session, doing an asana I'd done dozens of times before. Did I blame anyone? Nope. Because- repeat as needed- stuff happens. In 2014 the Packers were virtually injury free, and then lost that crushing defeat in Seattle. Because- well, you know.


Stuff happens?  :)
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: Starr2Max on October 15, 2017, 06:42:56 PM
I don't know if you can still access the Podcast from September 20th, but  Packernet had an excellent discussion with PT Charlie DeCleene, on soft tissue injuries, focusing on the Packer injuries at that time including Bakhtiari.  One important take away is that professional athletes are always testing the limits of the human body and are therefore more likely to have soft tissue injuries.  An excellent listen if you can access.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: PackerJoe on October 15, 2017, 06:52:19 PM
Training staff is inept.  Also need to hire a dietician along with a new strength coach.  They have some neanderthal thinking in this area.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: B on October 15, 2017, 07:03:06 PM
They have done all of that, multiple times.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: Toddfather on October 15, 2017, 07:45:02 PM
They are over conditioned from a weight room standpoint, but no longer can handle the real games. They don't practice for games, and because of this, they are dropping like flies (across the league).  Well, it's my thought at least.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: TAYLORBOY on October 15, 2017, 07:51:25 PM
Maybe players are doing this to themselves thru the Players Union in negotiations  with owners by making practices easier...less contact especially for OL.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: golfman on October 15, 2017, 07:56:16 PM
Bigger, faster stronger but you can't make the joints and ligaments stronger. They don't take that kind of stress before they give out. Also, when your muscles get that big how to you keep the proper elasticity? Seems that may be the cause of deep tissue injuries.

The game is going to become extinct because of the speed and strength of the players. I'm actually shocked no one has been killed on the field in the NFL.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: ricky on October 15, 2017, 09:57:17 PM
Training staff is inept.  Also need to hire a dietician along with a new strength coach.  They have some neanderthal thinking in this area.

Could you share some specific knowledge you possess that the training staff "have some neanderthal thinking in this area"? Other than injuries are happening, which is happening league wide. These guys are bigger, faster and stronger than ever. As Starr2Max pointed out, these guys are testing the limits of what the human body can endure on a daily basis, and especially in game situations. Again, in 2014, the Packers were very healthy. Last year and this year, not. So, the training staff was great in 2014, and now they're neanderthals? If you have the formula for preventing the majority of soft tissue injuries, please enlighten us. And the league. Because everyone would like to eliiminate these injuries. And no on has succeeded.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: scoremore on October 16, 2017, 02:44:37 AM
Lots of people looking for excuses and it's usually 'Fire Somebody'.


Luckily cooler heads prevail with the people that do this for a living!!!



Not buying all teams have injuries.  Really are half there starters out?  Don't take this lightly.  This is a pattern that has been going on for years.  Not just a one off bad season.  Whatever they are doing isn't working and hasn't for a number of years.  This is not a fluke it's a well established pattern of injuries.  Sure every team deals with injuries to some extent.  Lose a star player or whatever.  Well half of our starters are now out. 

You are right LMG I have lost my cool.  Why?  Because I am sick and tired of playing with one arm behind our back year after year after year.  Yes 2014 was the one year we actually had a normal season.  1 year out of the last 8 isn't cutting it for me.  Changes need to be made.  Groins and hamstrings can and should be prevented.  I think the training staff is inept.  Look at the track history of these guys and tell me I am wrong.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on October 16, 2017, 02:50:58 AM
Training staff is inept.  Also need to hire a dietician along with a new strength coach.  They have some neanderthal thinking in this area.

You may find it worth remembering that the fitter an athlete gets, the closer he is to breaking down. Footballers NEED to be big, muscular, agile and fast because the people they are playing are. No top athlete can stay at his peak indefinitely, the closer he gets to it the more he is on a knife edge between fitness and injury - that's why athletes train to peak at key times, like for a big race event.

One of the problems today's footballers suffer from, is that because over time everyone is getting bigger stronger faster, they have to be. The strain on the body is more than in the past when guys were smaller, collisions happen faster now, and with more weight behind them. Wrestling matches with opponents are against more powerful guys, so the torque stresses are higher. Bigger muscles mean more strain on things like hamstrings. All of these things make health trickier to maintain and they make for more injury.

Now the almost perfect storm of injuries that the Packers suffered this year (especially to all their best players) still seems right at the far end of a probability curve, but it seems normal that the best teams in December and January are the ones that have avoided key injuries the best. If you have a decent team and a relatively healthy one at the end of the year, you have a really good shot at the SB, because so many other teams will be beat up by then.

If the answer to injuries was as simple as the training staff being at fault here, don't you think the Packers would already have addressed it ? They have well paid analysts that look at everything football related and both they and the coaches have looked closely at training before. The most likely answer is what McCarthy said, the CBA limitations placed on training work against keeping guys in the best condition - not peak condition - because that is the edge of breakdown, but best maintainable condition. Even with all the focus teams put on keeping their players healthy, it is still mostly a lottery in which teams are healthiest. The Packers were beat up when they last won the SB, but it was mostly the guys at the lower end of the roster that were injured at the end of that year.

Finally, to scoremore, your words "Not buying all teams have injuries".  It's not the things you don't know that kill you, it's the things you know to be true, that are wrong, that get you  every time. I understand frustration and the desire to blame - someone - but the target of frustration is not always guilty as charged.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: Kepler on October 16, 2017, 07:05:58 AM
I feel that if the CBA it's going to restrict padded and contact practices then teams should start the season with their number twos and gradually replace them with starters as everyone begins to drop out. sarcasm

Obviously I'm joking and no team will do that, but the NFL should address the injury issue next CBA for sure. More padded and contact drills to better acclimate their bodies. I don't understand how the players union can think going from no contact except for games, where everyone is flying around like a heat seeking missile, is somehow good for the players.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: ricky38 on October 16, 2017, 07:15:22 AM
I think it time the players take some responsibility for player safety. there are a lot of unnecessary hits in games. Barr's hit on Rodgers may have been legal but he had plenty of time to pull up. It looked to me like Barr took 2 full steps after the ball was gone before he hit Rodgers.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: Hands on October 16, 2017, 07:21:59 AM
It's not a question of how players are getting stronger, faster, etc. but the issue is why Green Bay gets a greater share of their players hurt verses the rest of the league.
I wonder if players like Bulaga, Burnett, House, and Monty that get hurt frequently if there's something they aren't capturing when they were drafted.  So whatever the reason....the Packers will once again play a ton of guys that wouldn't normally find the field and may find some have some real potential.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: scoremore on October 16, 2017, 07:45:21 AM
Training staff is inept.  Also need to hire a dietician along with a new strength coach.  They have some neanderthal thinking in this area.

You may find it worth remembering that the fitter an athlete gets, the closer he is to breaking down. Footballers NEED to be big, muscular, agile and fast because the people they are playing are. No top athlete can stay at his peak indefinitely, the closer he gets to it the more he is on a knife edge between fitness and injury - that's why athletes train to peak at key times, like for a big race event.

One of the problems today's footballers suffer from, is that because over time everyone is getting bigger stronger faster, they have to be. The strain on the body is more than in the past when guys were smaller, collisions happen faster now, and with more weight behind them. Wrestling matches with opponents are against more powerful guys, so the torque stresses are higher. Bigger muscles mean more strain on things like hamstrings. All of these things make health trickier to maintain and they make for more injury.

Now the almost perfect storm of injuries that the Packers suffered this year (especially to all their best players) still seems right at the far end of a probability curve, but it seems normal that the best teams in December and January are the ones that have avoided key injuries the best. If you have a decent team and a relatively healthy one at the end of the year, you have a really good shot at the SB, because so many other teams will be beat up by then.

If the answer to injuries was as simple as the training staff being at fault here, don't you think the Packers would already have addressed it ? They have well paid analysts that look at everything football related and both they and the coaches have looked closely at training before. The most likely answer is what McCarthy said, the CBA limitations placed on training work against keeping guys in the best condition - not peak condition - because that is the edge of breakdown, but best maintainable condition. Even with all the focus teams put on keeping their players healthy, it is still mostly a lottery in which teams are healthiest. The Packers were beat up when they last won the SB, but it was mostly the guys at the lower end of the roster that were injured at the end of that year.

Finally, to scoremore, your words "Not buying all teams have injuries".  It's not the things you don't know that kill you, it's the things you know to be true, that are wrong, that get you  every time. I understand frustration and the desire to blame - someone - but the target of frustration is not always guilty as charged.

What they are doing isn't working.  Every year we are among the most injured teams in the league.  Yes I am extremely frustrated as every season this team gets derailed by injuries.  We are what 7 games in and I can't even keep track of all the guys that are hurt.  It's beyond ridiculous.  Every play I am holding my breath who's going to go down next.  If it was just one season I would attribute it to bad luck.  It's not.  It's a pattern that has repeated itself the better part of a fricken decade. 
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on October 16, 2017, 09:12:35 AM
What they are doing isn't working.  Every year we are among the most injured teams in the league.


Some facts to support this please ?
 
Yes I am extremely frustrated as every season this team gets derailed by injuries.  We are what 7 games in and I can't even keep track of all the guys that are hurt.


I agree this year is just crazy, but every year ?

In my opinion the number of injuries is not the key, anyway........HOW MANY injuries is far less important than WHO is injured and how evenly the injuries fall across the various position groups. Green Bay were unlucky with the DB group last year and the OL group this year - no telling where injuries will fall. Packers won the Superbowl in 2011 - they had plenty of guys injured that year, but not so many of the important ones, nor did injury decimate one position group (that's how my admittedly imperfect memory remembers it, anyway).
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: ricky on October 16, 2017, 12:08:09 PM
Should the Lions fire their training staff? For your consideration, from Sunday's loss to NO:

One thing the Lions can do besides festering is heal up. Guard T.J. Lang, wide receiver Kenny Golladay and linebacker Paul Worrilow missed the Saints game with injuries and wide receiver Golden Tate and safety Glover Quin were both injured during the loss.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: Tony on October 16, 2017, 08:05:30 PM
I think it time the players take some responsibility for player safety. there are a lot of unnecessary hits in games. Barr's hit on Rodgers may have been legal but he had plenty of time to pull up. It looked to me like Barr took 2 full steps after the ball was gone before he hit Rodgers.

I completely agree!  There’s an unwritten - but widely known and religiously followed - code in hockey.  You take a cheap shot at one of our guys, regardless if was called for a penalty or not, you’re going to have to answer for it.  Now, some players will still take a cheap shot, well aware of the consequences, but I think at some level there’s much more respect for each other in this quasi self-regulating system.
Title: Re: Fire the Training Staff
Post by: ricky on October 17, 2017, 10:32:40 AM
For further consideration, an analysis  ESPN on teams which have been most impacted by injuries. Any doubt who's #1?

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/253109/the-nfl-teams-most-impacted-by-injuries