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General Category => Rant and Vent => Topic started by: ebterp on October 22, 2017, 04:44:31 PM

Title: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ebterp on October 22, 2017, 04:44:31 PM
Listen he definitely deserves some credit for consistant play of this team over time but where would he be without Rodgers? If you take Rodgers and put him on any other team are they are a consistant playoff team and maybe even challenging for championships? I have to be honest and say that I am starting to believe MM is a average coach who lucked into an all world QB...just saying...

EB
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ricky on October 22, 2017, 05:14:38 PM
Listen he definitely deserves some credit for consistant play of this team over time but where would he be without Rodgers? If you take Rodgers and put him on any other team are they are a consistant playoff team and maybe even challenging for championships? I have to be honest and say that I am starting to believe MM is a average coach who lucked into an all world QB...just saying...

EB

An old argument. Just ask Jerry Jones and the Cowboys of the '90's. Jimmy Johnson was just another coach. That team was so good, you could plug in any coach and they'd win. Well, they did win another SB under Switzer. And probably left another couple on the field.

Keep in mind that MM came in when Favre thought he ws bigger than the team, and was brought back to his senses and became a much better QB under MM. And, lets not forget that Rodgers was not that great a QB when he came out of Cal. He had some tools, but needed extensive work with his mechanics, strength and attitude before he blossomed. Maybe that happens with another coach. Maybe not. But to claim that "MM is an average coach who lucked into an all world QB" misses the process of how he became so good.

Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Pugger on October 22, 2017, 05:52:36 PM
I don't have a problem with McCoach.  Capers is another story entirely.  I think he should "retire".  If we had even an average defense we had a chance today. 
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: golfman on October 22, 2017, 06:52:32 PM
I don't have a problem with McCoach.  Capers is another story entirely.  I think he should "retire".  If we had even an average defense we had a chance today.

Who keeps employing capers year after year?
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ricky on October 22, 2017, 07:35:30 PM
Who keeps employing capers year after year?

MM is considered two things that can be seen as negatives or positives. One, he is loyal. Two, he can be stubborn. In the case of Capers, this has led to a defense that has underperformed. Am I suggesting I know more than either of these guys about football? Absolutely not. But sometimes, looking from the outside, you can sometimes view things with more detatchment.

Also, if the rest of the organization really believed Capers was a problem, why hasn't MM been called into an executive meeting with TT, Murphy and others, and asked why he would keep Capers around? Don't the Packers do an performance analysis of all their personnel every year? I'm going to submit this question to Packers.com, and hopefully get an answer. If I do, I'll share it with everyone.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Whiskey Sam on October 23, 2017, 06:20:46 AM
Listen he definitely deserves some credit for consistant play of this team over time but where would he be without Rodgers? If you take Rodgers and put him on any other team are they are a consistant playoff team and maybe even challenging for championships? I have to be honest and say that I am starting to believe MM is a average coach who lucked into an all world QB...just saying...

EB

In the most literal sense, 2-8-1 when Rodgers is injured.  Hasn't been able to develop any QBs but Rodgers in his time here despite having a reputation as a QB guru.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Pugger on October 23, 2017, 08:30:51 AM
Listen he definitely deserves some credit for consistant play of this team over time but where would he be without Rodgers? If you take Rodgers and put him on any other team are they are a consistant playoff team and maybe even challenging for championships? I have to be honest and say that I am starting to believe MM is a average coach who lucked into an all world QB...just saying...

EB

In the most literal sense, 2-8-1 when Rodgers is injured.  Hasn't been able to develop any QBs but Rodgers in his time here despite having a reputation as a QB guru.

Of course with the restrictions on offseason practices I wonder if that has put and end to MM's QB school?   :-\
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ebterp on October 23, 2017, 01:32:04 PM
10-8 in the playoffs, if you take away the SB year 6-8. By my count. The losses have been either pretty much non-competitive or collapses...when is the last time we actually beat a good team in the playoffs.

2011 - lay an egg against Giants
2012 - beaten badly by SF
2013 - Competitive game with SF
2014 - Seattle game collapse
2015 - Competitive game with Zona - still believe he should have gone for 2 at end of game...no balls
2016 - beaten badly by Atlanta

EB
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: RT on October 24, 2017, 04:40:10 AM
10-8 in the playoffs, if you take away the SB year 6-8. By my count. The losses have been either pretty much non-competitive or collapses...when is the last time we actually beat a good team in the playoffs.

2011 - lay an egg against Giants
2012 - beaten badly by SF
2013 - Competitive game with SF
2014 - Seattle game collapse
2015 - Competitive game with Zona - still believe he should have gone for 2 at end of game...no balls
2016 - beaten badly by Atlanta

EB

This is a fair question I guess. Cases can be made on both sides of the fence here.

Your comment, 'if you take away the SB year 6-8' is nonsense, might as well state that if you take away his 10 playoff wins, he is 0-8. 'When is the last time we actually beat a good team in the playoffs'? Last year against Dallas. Every win in the playoffs is against a good team.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Pugger on October 24, 2017, 09:28:01 AM
10-8 in the playoffs, if you take away the SB year 6-8. By my count. The losses have been either pretty much non-competitive or collapses...when is the last time we actually beat a good team in the playoffs.

2011 - lay an egg against Giants
2012 - beaten badly by SF
2013 - Competitive game with SF
2014 - Seattle game collapse
2015 - Competitive game with Zona - still believe he should have gone for 2 at end of game...no balls
2016 - beaten badly by Atlanta

EB

This is a fair question I guess. Cases can be made on both sides of the fence here.

Your comment, 'if you take away the SB year 6-8' is nonsense, might as well state that if you take away his 10 playoff wins, he is 0-8. 'When is the last time we actually beat a good team in the playoffs'? Last year against Dallas. Every win in the playoffs is against a good team.

 goodpost
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ricky on October 24, 2017, 11:02:00 AM
Name a coach who was successful for multiple years who didn't have a franchise QB. Or, in the case of some very lucky coaches, more than one top drawer QB. Please note the "multiple years" before responding. This doesn't have to be SB winners. Just teams with the same coach who have been successful for an extended period of time.   
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ebterp on October 25, 2017, 09:57:29 AM
Name a coach who was successful for multiple years who didn't have a franchise QB. Or, in the case of some very lucky coaches, more than one top drawer QB. Please note the "multiple years" before responding. This doesn't have to be SB winners. Just teams with the same coach who have been successful for an extended period of time.

I think that is the point...having that type of QB pretty much guarantees the success that we have seen under MM...there are quite a few coaches that have won a superbowl and been consistant with a QB that isn't as good as Rodgers...Steelers, Ravens, Seattle etc..

EB
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ricky on October 25, 2017, 12:15:27 PM
I think that is the point...having that type of QB pretty much guarantees the success that we have seen under MM...there are quite a few coaches that have won a superbowl and been consistant with a QB that isn't as good as Rodgers...Steelers, Ravens, Seattle etc..

EB

Sorry, but that is nonsense. Steelers won SB's with a great defense, an excellent running game, and a HOF QB. They surged again when they had another franchise QB in Roethlisberger. The Ravens made it to a SB with a great defense and a poor QB (Dilfer). They won another by getting very lucky at the right time. Since winning that SB with Flacco, they have gone back into hibernation. Seattle got to a SB with Hasselbeck, and back-to-back SB's with Wilson. And a very tough defense. If you can fill in the "etc." teams, I'll be glad to consider them. Before you do, however, please provide some research to back up your opinion.

Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Pugger on October 26, 2017, 06:56:53 AM
Name a coach who was successful for multiple years who didn't have a franchise QB. Or, in the case of some very lucky coaches, more than one top drawer QB. Please note the "multiple years" before responding. This doesn't have to be SB winners. Just teams with the same coach who have been successful for an extended period of time.

Of course to some not winning more than one SB with a top drawer QB doesn't = success.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: B on October 26, 2017, 01:45:40 PM
 Don Shula, widely regarded as one of the greatest coaches of all time, never won a Super Bowl with Dan Marino as his quarterback for 18 seasons.  Shula's record with Marino as his quarterback in the playoffs was 8 wins & 10 losses.

 People say all kinds of nonsense, it doesn't mean they know what they're talking about.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Leader on October 26, 2017, 02:07:34 PM
Don Shula, widely regarded as one of the greatest coaches of all time, never won a Super Bowl with Dan Marino as his quarterback for 18 seasons.  Shula's record with Marino as his quarterback in the playoffs was 8 wins & 10 losses.

 People say all kinds of nonsense, it doesn't mean they know what they're talking about.

Thank you.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: dannobanano on October 26, 2017, 04:12:50 PM
QB's like Rivers, Palmer, Ryan, Stafford, and Newton are all what I would consider as elite level QB's and this group has yet to win a SB.

A prolific 1st ballot HOF QB like Drew Brees only has 1 SB title.
Same with Rodgers and Favre.

The only Elite level QB's that have multiple SB titles in this millennium are Brady, Rothlisberger, Peyton Manning, and Eli Manning (and I don't consider him elite).

It can't be done with just an elite QB.

You need (at least) a decent defense, as well, to make it happen and this is one of the reasons why GB only has 2 SB titles between 2 HOF QB's over the last 25 years.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: B on October 26, 2017, 09:16:14 PM
Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Fran Tarkenton  are all in the Hall of Fame, and none of them ever won a Superbowl.  Neither did Dan Fouts despite being a dominant quarterback.

Some argue Paul Brown was the greatest coach of all time, I don't agree, but he was a great coach, and he never won a Super Bowl.

But Grant, Marv Levy, Dan Reeves, Don Coryell, Andy Reid George Allen, Sid Gillman, and Chuck Knox never won a Super Bowl.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: B on October 26, 2017, 09:59:04 PM

Coach Wins In First 11 Regular Seasons (2006-16)
 1. Don Shula, BAL/MIA 117
 2. Joe Gibbs, WAS 115
 3t. Mike McCarthy, GB 114
3t. Tony Dungy, TB/IND 114
 3t. George Seifert, SF/CAR 114

Ya gotta admit that is some pretty elite company that Mike runs with

 Games Needed For 100 Regular-Season Wins
 Coach (Current)
 1. Mike McCarthy, GB 150
 2. Andy Reid, PHI/KC 164
 3. Bill Belichick, CLE/NE 177
 4. John Fox, CAR/DEN 182

Winning % by active coaches minimum of 100
Coach Winning Pct.
 1. Bill Belichick, CLE/NE .680 (266-125)
2. Mike McCarthy, GB .642 (126-70-1)
 3. Mike Tomlin, PIT .638 (113-64)
 4. Andy Reid, Phil/KC .607 (176-114-1)

McCarthy: 128-72-1, .646 (incl. 10-8 postseason); 11th NFL season

Led the Packers to their eighth consecutive playoff appearance last season, tied for the third-longest streak in NFL history.

Has also led the team to nine playoff appearances in the last 10 years (2007, 2009-16).

Ranks second in franchise history in total victories, trailing only Curly Lambeau.

If that's mediocrity, I'll take it.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Pugger on October 27, 2017, 05:01:37 AM

Coach Wins In First 11 Regular Seasons (2006-16)
 1. Don Shula, BAL/MIA 117
 2. Joe Gibbs, WAS 115
 3t. Mike McCarthy, GB 114
3t. Tony Dungy, TB/IND 114
 3t. George Seifert, SF/CAR 114

Ya gotta admit that is some pretty elite company that Mike runs with

 Games Needed For 100 Regular-Season Wins
 Coach (Current)
 1. Mike McCarthy, GB 150
 2. Andy Reid, PHI/KC 164
 3. Bill Belichick, CLE/NE 177
 4. John Fox, CAR/DEN 182

Winning % by active coaches minimum of 100
Coach Winning Pct.
 1. Bill Belichick, CLE/NE .680 (266-125)
2. Mike McCarthy, GB .642 (126-70-1)
 3. Mike Tomlin, PIT .638 (113-64)
 4. Andy Reid, Phil/KC .607 (176-114-1)

McCarthy: 128-72-1, .646 (incl. 10-8 postseason); 11th NFL season

Led the Packers to their eighth consecutive playoff appearance last season, tied for the third-longest streak in NFL history.

Has also led the team to nine playoff appearances in the last 10 years (2007, 2009-16).

Ranks second in franchise history in total victories, trailing only Curly Lambeau.

If that's mediocrity, I'll take it.

I'll take it too but you just know there will be people who will say McCarthy only wins because he had HOF QBs.  Of course most of those winning HCs also had wonderful QBs.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Tony on October 27, 2017, 09:29:24 AM
So, with deference to the past, what’s MM gotta due now and in the future to get another championship?  I’m more concerned with this question frankly.  He still has time with AR.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ricky on October 27, 2017, 12:39:30 PM
What coach won consistently without a franchise QB? This means, to me, stringing several winning seasons together. So, Marv Levy never won a SB. But he did get the Bills to four SB's in a row. But, he had a HOF QB. So, would another coach have done better? Tony Dungy finally won a SB with Peyton Manning, while Jon Gruden took essentially the same team Dungy had in Tampa Bay and won a SB with Brad Johnson. So, what can we infer from that, if anything? That Gruden is a better coach than Dungy?

Personally, I think this is a tired argument. Could Belichick win without Brady? Could Brady without Belichick? The Pats went 10-6 and missed the playoffs with Ryan Mallett. Mallett is now a journeyman QB. Case Keenum could very well be a SB winning QB this year (though I shudder to even write this heresy). Does that mean Zimmer is a better coach than coaches with HOF QB's who didn't win a SB? It's not as if getting to the SB multiple times is all that easy, as B's post pointed out quite well. If the Patriots had not gotten there seven times with Brady, this would not even be a consideration.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Twain on October 27, 2017, 03:37:02 PM

You need (at least) a decent defense, as well, to make it happen and this is one of the reasons why GB only has 2 SB titles between 2 HOF QB's over the last 25 years.

If you look at the 1997 packers, you can see how difficult it is to win a super bowl, even with a HOF QB and a great defense.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: walker16 on October 29, 2017, 05:47:58 PM
who else to compare to
back to back hof qbs?
Only one come to mind would be the 49ers  ( Montana/Young )
How many SB games with these 2.
Of course I dont know how free agency/cap issues cloud that.

We are a spoiled state. Badgers & Packers have been on very good run.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Pugger on October 29, 2017, 10:48:59 PM
Name a coach who was successful for multiple years who didn't have a franchise QB. Or, in the case of some very lucky coaches, more than one top drawer QB. Please note the "multiple years" before responding. This doesn't have to be SB winners. Just teams with the same coach who have been successful for an extended period of time.

I think that is the point...having that type of QB pretty much guarantees the success that we have seen under MM...there are quite a few coaches that have won a superbowl and been consistant with a QB that isn't as good as Rodgers...Steelers, Ravens, Seattle etc..

EB

Yes, but most of the time when these coaches have won a SB with a QB that isn't as good as Rodgers they had a superior defense, especially with the Ravens and Flacco. 
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ricky on October 30, 2017, 06:30:35 AM
Yes, but most of the time when these coaches have won a SB with a QB that isn't as good as Rodgers they had a superior defense, especially with the Ravens and Flacco.

Or Ravens and Dilfer; or Bears and McMahon; Or Tampa Bay and Johnson. Or the Giants and Manning, plus a couple of incredible catches (I'm looking at you, David Tyree). So, is MM a good coach? All we have to go on is the record, and it says he is a good coach. Should we also throw Belichick into disrepute? Holmgren? Jimmy Johnson? Lombardi?
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: RT on October 30, 2017, 01:43:54 PM
I'm not on the fire MM bandwagon, but I do think their is a shelf life for a head coach. Change can be a good thing at times.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: B on October 30, 2017, 04:17:51 PM
who else to compare to
back to back hof qbs?
Only one come to mind would be the 49ers  ( Montana/Young )
How many SB games with these 2.
Of course I dont know how free agency/cap issues cloud that.

We are a spoiled state. Badgers & Packers have been on very good run.

I agree we have been spoiled and...

Shula also holds the distinction of having coached five different quarterbacks to Super Bowl appearances (Johnny Unitas and Earl Morrall in 1968, Bob Griese in 1971, 1972, and 1973, David Woodley in 1982, and Dan Marino in 1984),

Unitas, Griese, and Marino are all in the Hall of Famers.

All of Bill Bellichick's success has been with Tom Brady has his quarterback. Ditto Vince Lombardi with Bart Starr.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: claymaker on November 02, 2017, 04:57:57 PM
I know one thing for sure, if McCarthy were to get fired he'd have another HC job with another team. He's built a great program in Green Bay and won a Super Bowl.

You think the Saints are ready to dump Sean Payton? Another great coach who probably gets flamed on boards just like this who would easily have another HC job. There are about 5 teams with Head Coaches who shouldn't be Head Coaches: New York Jets, Chargers, Dolphins, Redskins. Aside from that name me a better HC than McCarthy who would realistically be available to them if they fired him. For real, name one.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: The GM on November 02, 2017, 05:26:47 PM
I know one thing for sure, if McCarthy were to get fired he'd have another HC job with another team. He's built a great program in Green Bay and won a Super Bowl.

You think the Saints are ready to dump Sean Payton? Another great coach who probably gets flamed on boards just like this who would easily have another HC job. There are about 5 teams with Head Coaches who shouldn't be Head Coaches: New York Jets, Chargers, Dolphins, Redskins. Aside from that name me a better HC than McCarthy who would realistically be available to them if they fired him. For real, name one.
Got no issues with McCarthy if he makes the right decisions this offseason.  Packer success comes from getting coordinators to be HC in Green Bay. Lombardi, Holmgren, and McCarthy all were offensive coordinators and hired as the HC in Green Bay.  Thats worked out pretty well.  Not sure I'd change that approach.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: robertgoulet on November 06, 2017, 09:10:24 PM
Listen he definitely deserves some credit for consistant play of this team over time but where would he be without Rodgers? If you take Rodgers and put him on any other team are they are a consistant playoff team and maybe even challenging for championships? I have to be honest and say that I am starting to believe MM is a average coach who lucked into an all world QB...just saying...

EB

In the most literal sense, 2-8-1 when Rodgers is injured.  Hasn't been able to develop any QBs but Rodgers in his time here despite having a reputation as a QB guru.
This is the thing. It's not what he's done with a HOF QB as much as what he's done without one. Yes every coach will have a worse record minus a HOF QB but there are plenty of teams that dont that still find a way to win games. Hell the texans went to the playoffs with brock osweiler. Unfortunately i fear that record is gonna be close to 2-20 or 3-19 by the end of the season. To me that says no hes not a good coach.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: robertgoulet on November 06, 2017, 09:18:58 PM
I know one thing for sure, if McCarthy were to get fired he'd have another HC job with another team. He's built a great program in Green Bay and won a Super Bowl.

You think the Saints are ready to dump Sean Payton? Another great coach who probably gets flamed on boards just like this who would easily have another HC job. There are about 5 teams with Head Coaches who shouldn't be Head Coaches: New York Jets, Chargers, Dolphins, Redskins. Aside from that name me a better HC than McCarthy who would realistically be available to them if they fired him. For real, name one.
How about the guy who just schooled us...Jim Bob Cooter
Matt Patricia
Mike Vrabel
Frank Reich
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Whiskey Sam on November 07, 2017, 06:27:08 AM
Listen he definitely deserves some credit for consistant play of this team over time but where would he be without Rodgers? If you take Rodgers and put him on any other team are they are a consistant playoff team and maybe even challenging for championships? I have to be honest and say that I am starting to believe MM is a average coach who lucked into an all world QB...just saying...

EB

In the most literal sense, 2-8-1 when Rodgers is injured.  Hasn't been able to develop any QBs but Rodgers in his time here despite having a reputation as a QB guru.
This is the thing. It's not what he's done with a HOF QB as much as what he's done without one. Yes every coach will have a worse record minus a HOF QB but there are plenty of teams that dont that still find a way to win games. Hell the texans went to the playoffs with brock osweiler. Unfortunately i fear that record is gonna be close to 2-20 or 3-19 by the end of the season. To me that says no hes not a good coach.

Yep, there is a difference between being "not as good" when you lose your star player and not even being competitive. This is a bad football team with an overmatched coaching staff when they don't have a HOF to cover for it.  For all the talk of Shula, he wasted Marino's career because his 80s Dolphin teams were nowhere near as good as his 70s Dolphins teams despite having a better QB.  Shula's coaching reputation was built in 60's and 70's not in the 80's on when he racked up regular season wins while flaming out in the playoffs every year.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ricky on November 07, 2017, 11:20:04 AM
How about the guy who just schooled us...Jim Bob Cooter
Matt Patricia
Mike Vrabel
Frank Reich

I just hope your wish doesn't come true. Because all these guys are total unknowns. Please let us know why any of these guys would be better than MM. And keep in mind, Cooter has a somewhat checkered past. I googled "Jim Bob Cooter driving naked" and got these hits. Sounds like "Packer People" to me.

https://www.google.com/search?q=jim+bob+cooter+naked+driving&rlz=1CAACAC_enUS539US539&oq=jim+bob+cooter+naked+driving&aqs=chrome..69i57.8855j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: robertgoulet on November 07, 2017, 02:09:45 PM
How about the guy who just schooled us...Jim Bob Cooter
Matt Patricia
Mike Vrabel
Frank Reich

I just hope your wish doesn't come true. Because all these guys are total unknowns. Please let us know why any of these guys would be better than MM. And keep in mind, Cooter has a somewhat checkered past. I googled "Jim Bob Cooter driving naked" and got these hits. Sounds like "Packer People" to me.

https://www.google.com/search?q=jim+bob+cooter+naked+driving&rlz=1CAACAC_enUS539US539&oq=jim+bob+cooter+naked+driving&aqs=chrome..69i57.8855j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
While none have been head coaches I wouldn't say they are unknown. And I would say they all have far better track records than MM did when he was hired.

Patricia and Vrabel both have been highly successful coaches/coordinators in this league. Cooter is considered a up and coming offensive mind. Reich has turned carson wentz into a mvp candidate in only his 2nd season
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ricky on November 07, 2017, 02:35:03 PM
While none have been head coaches I wouldn't say they are unknown. And I would say they all have far better track records than MM did when he was hired.

Patricia and Vrabel both have been highly successful coaches/coordinators in this league. Cooter is considered a up and coming offensive mind. Reich has turned carson wentz into a mvp candidate in only his 2nd season

Patricia works with Belichick, considered a master defensive mind. Vrabel has been a DC for one year. So, that makes him highly successful? Cooter is a guy with a very troubled past. And, by the way, when was the last time the Lions made the playoffs with him and Stafford? Reich is a QB guru, and is playing with an apparently very good QB. Similar to what MM did with Rodgers. So, you want Reich to do what? Improve Rodgers? Have the Packers let Rodgers walk and coach up Hundley? What?

And, once again, name a head coach who has had sustained success without a franchise QB.This means multiple years with winning records, and/or making the playoffs. Not one year; not even a HOF QB, but a very good QB. That coach doesn't exist. And as far as how man wins has without either Favre or Rodgers, how about that. Suddenly take away the heart and soul of the team, and you don't win as much. How shocking!



Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: robertgoulet on November 07, 2017, 06:50:33 PM
While none have been head coaches I wouldn't say they are unknown. And I would say they all have far better track records than MM did when he was hired.

Patricia and Vrabel both have been highly successful coaches/coordinators in this league. Cooter is considered a up and coming offensive mind. Reich has turned carson wentz into a mvp candidate in only his 2nd season

Patricia works with Belichick, considered a master defensive mind. Vrabel has been a DC for one year. So, that makes him highly successful? Cooter is a guy with a very troubled past. And, by the way, when was the last time the Lions made the playoffs with him and Stafford? Reich is a QB guru, and is playing with an apparently very good QB. Similar to what MM did with Rodgers. So, you want Reich to do what? Improve Rodgers? Have the Packers let Rodgers walk and coach up Hundley? What?

And, once again, name a head coach who has had sustained success without a franchise QB.This means multiple years with winning records, and/or making the playoffs. Not one year; not even a HOF QB, but a very good QB. That coach doesn't exist. And as far as how man wins has without either Favre or Rodgers, how about that. Suddenly take away the heart and soul of the team, and you don't win as much. How shocking!
I would say andy Reid. Outside of mcnabb hes won with Matt cassel Alex Smith and Nick foles
Gruden won with brad Johnson
I would even say tom Coughlin with eli manning who isn't what I would consider very good
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: robertgoulet on November 07, 2017, 07:24:23 PM
And while not sustained success I would argue a good coach should be able to have SOME success without a HOF QB which MM has not
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ricky on November 08, 2017, 06:00:12 AM
I would say andy Reid. Outside of mcnabb hes won with Matt cassel Alex Smith and Nick foles
Gruden won with brad Johnson
I would even say tom Coughlin with eli manning who isn't what I would consider very good

Reid had McNab. Not HOF, but definitely a very good QB. Same with Smith. How many games did he win with Foles? Gruden won a SB with Brad Johnson, playing against his former team, the Raiders. And he was fired two years later, I believe. Hardly "sustained success". Eli Manning is an average QB in the regular season. Get him into the playoffs and he suddenly blossoms.

Try again. Because you're mistaken on this one. Though I'll give you the rare exception. The Ravens won consistently with an outstanding defense, and finally won a SB when they found that Trent Dilfer could be a decent game manager. Tampa Bay, as you noted, did the same thing with Gruden and Johnson. But these are outliers in an overwhelming number of HC's who had franchise QB's on their teams.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Pugger on November 08, 2017, 08:01:08 AM
I would say andy Reid. Outside of mcnabb hes won with Matt cassel Alex Smith and Nick foles
Gruden won with brad Johnson
I would even say tom Coughlin with eli manning who isn't what I would consider very good

Reid had McNab. Not HOF, but definitely a very good QB. Same with Smith. How many games did he win with Foles? Gruden won a SB with Brad Johnson, playing against his former team, the Raiders. And he was fired two years later, I believe. Hardly "sustained success". Eli Manning is an average QB in the regular season. Get him into the playoffs and he suddenly blossoms.

Try again. Because you're mistaken on this one. Though I'll give you the rare exception. The Ravens won consistently with an outstanding defense, and finally won a SB when they found that Trent Dilfer could be a decent game manager. Tampa Bay, as you noted, did the same thing with Gruden and Johnson. But these are outliers in an overwhelming number of HC's who had franchise QB's on their teams.

I'm not ready to move on from McCarthy either.  My only beef with him is he can be loyal to his assistants almost to a fault.  We all bemoaned about our STs for years.  It took that meltdown in Seattle to finally force Mac to can Slocom.  If the defense continues to look this horrendous Mike may be forced by either TT or Murphy to make a change.

I'm not all that surprised Hundley is struggling.  He slipped to the 5th round for a reason.  Like someone said - perhaps Ted and Mike thought they could do something with Brett so they took a chance.  He still might turn out to be a McCown caliber QB.  He only has a couple of starts under his belt.  But unless he improves hugely in the next few weeks he'll be hard pressed to be anything more than a below average starter.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: robertgoulet on November 08, 2017, 10:09:05 AM
I would say andy Reid. Outside of mcnabb hes won with Matt cassel Alex Smith and Nick foles
Gruden won with brad Johnson
I would even say tom Coughlin with eli manning who isn't what I would consider very good

Reid had McNab. Not HOF, but definitely a very good QB. Same with Smith. How many games did he win with Foles? Gruden won a SB with Brad Johnson, playing against his former team, the Raiders. And he was fired two years later, I believe. Hardly "sustained success". Eli Manning is an average QB in the regular season. Get him into the playoffs and he suddenly blossoms.

Try again. Because you're mistaken on this one. Though I'll give you the rare exception. The Ravens won consistently with an outstanding defense, and finally won a SB when they found that Trent Dilfer could be a decent game manager. Tampa Bay, as you noted, did the same thing with Gruden and Johnson. But these are outliers in an overwhelming number of HC's who had franchise QB's on their teams.
I agree it's hard to have sustained success without a franchise qb. But MM has had NO success without one. A HOF QB can make any coach look good. Do you honestly think if we move on from MM and Rodgers comes back 100% Aaron freaking Rodgers like that we would be any worse?
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: robertgoulet on November 08, 2017, 10:14:39 AM
While none have been head coaches I wouldn't say they are unknown. And I would say they all have far better track records than MM did when he was hired.

Patricia and Vrabel both have been highly successful coaches/coordinators in this league. Cooter is considered a up and coming offensive mind. Reich has turned carson wentz into a mvp candidate in only his 2nd season

Patricia works with Belichick, considered a master defensive mind. Vrabel has been a DC for one year. So, that makes him highly successful? Cooter is a guy with a very troubled past. And, by the way, when was the last time the Lions made the playoffs with him and Stafford? Reich is a QB guru, and is playing with an apparently very good QB. Similar to what MM did with Rodgers. So, you want Reich to do what? Improve Rodgers? Have the Packers let Rodgers walk and coach up Hundley? What?

And, once again, name a head coach who has had sustained success without a franchise QB.This means multiple years with winning records, and/or making the playoffs. Not one year; not even a HOF QB, but a very good QB. That coach doesn't exist. And as far as how man wins has without either Favre or Rodgers, how about that. Suddenly take away the heart and soul of the team, and you don't win as much. How shocking!
First off, you asked when the lions made the playoffs with him as coordinator? LAST YEAR!

Second you cast doubt on the others accomplishments. They all are far more successful than MM was when he was hired. The previous season he was coordinator for one of the most inept offenses in history. He was QB coach for us in 99 when we went 8-8 And missed the playoffs for the first time in favres career. And he had a couple ok years as the saints coordinator. How is any of that more success than any of the guys I listed
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ricky on November 08, 2017, 12:38:45 PM
First off, you asked when the lions made the playoffs with him as coordinator? LAST YEAR!

Second you cast doubt on the others accomplishments. They all are far more successful than MM was when he was hired. The previous season he was coordinator for one of the most inept offenses in history. He was QB coach for us in 99 when we went 8-8 And missed the playoffs for the first time in favres career. And he had a couple ok years as the saints coordinator. How is any of that more success than any of the guys I listed

MM has won a lot of games. He has done it with very good QB's. With Favre, he did something I thought was impossible- he reined him in and made him more responsible. Fewer interceptions, and more success. He then took Rodgers, who had a lot of raw talent but was egotistical and not ready for the NFL. He worked with him, helping create the player we see today.I'm not suggesting he could have done this with anyone. What I am saying is that he helped AR maximize his potential. Could another coach have done that? Good question. And impossible to answer. We know MM did it. Whether someone else cold have is speculation.

The thing is, these guys are similar to Holmgren and Favre. Holmgren hooked his wagon to Favre becoming a great QB. Then he helped him develop his natural talent. MM did the same thing with AR. Recall what happened when Holmgren moved on. Under Sherman, Favre became a maverick, a flinger, a guy who threw 29 interceptions in one year. MM came in, he cut down on his intereceptions. Could another coach done that? We know MM did it. Whether another coach could have done the same thing is speculation.

By the way, thanks for agreeing that "its hard to have sustained success without a franchise QB." Because its crucial, unless you have a stifling defense, and a really good RB to take up the slack. In that case, the QB can just be adequate, a "game manager". But for sustained success? Especially making the playoffs eight years in a row, and advancing to the championship game several times, and winning a SB? For that, you need a franchise QB and coach combo that complement each other. Kind of like Brady and Belichick. Or Carroll and Wilson. Or even AR and MM.

Now, there is one final thing to consider. Is Rodgers happy with MM as coach? There were times a few seasons ago when the relationship seemed a bit rocky. But I haven't seen or heard anything the last few years to suggest any friction between the two. So, to me, its very simple. If AR is  OK with MM, then keep him. If AR feels he can't play for him, then get another coach. Because its easier to find a decent HC than it is to find a franchise/HOF QB.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Shinesman on November 08, 2017, 09:21:44 PM
Ricky I really think you are trying too hard to deny what's right in front of you. Another coach with multiple years of playoff appearance and success with Jack squat at QB? Rex Ryan, didn't he have to deal with Pennington AND Sanchez among other subpar quarterbacks? Making the playoffs and even the AFC title game a couple times?
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ricky on November 09, 2017, 06:15:46 AM
Ricky I really think you are trying too hard to deny what's right in front of you. Another coach with multiple years of playoff appearance and success with Jack squat at QB? Rex Ryan, didn't he have to deal with Pennington AND Sanchez among other subpar quarterbacks? Making the playoffs and even the AFC title game a couple times?

Fair enough. Remember, I asked for "sustained success". Ryan had two winning seasons with the Jets. Two championship game appearances, I believe. Then, the team got worse and worse. Is it because they didn't have a franchise QB? That is what the overwhelming evidence would suggest. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/RyanRe0.htm

Anyway, if it wasn't for Bradichick and their unparalleled success in their 16 year collaboration. Could one have done it without the other? Is Belichick a great coach because he has Brady? Would Brady be as successful with another coach? Who knows?
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: SSG on November 09, 2017, 12:11:14 PM
Ricky I really think you are trying too hard to deny what's right in front of you. Another coach with multiple years of playoff appearance and success with Jack squat at QB? Rex Ryan, didn't he have to deal with Pennington AND Sanchez among other subpar quarterbacks? Making the playoffs and even the AFC title game a couple times?

Fair enough. Remember, I asked for "sustained success". Ryan had two winning seasons with the Jets. Two championship game appearances, I believe. Then, the team got worse and worse. Is it because they didn't have a franchise QB? That is what the overwhelming evidence would suggest. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/RyanRe0.htm

Anyway, if it wasn't for Bradichick and their unparalleled success in their 16 year collaboration. Could one have done it without the other? Is Belichick a great coach because he has Brady? Would Brady be as successful with another coach? Who knows?

Belichick is 13-6 when Brady has been out with injury or suspension.  The year TB12 was lost in week 1, Belichick used a back up QB who'd never made a start in either the NFL or college and won 11 games with him.  Last year, he went 3-1 with his back up and third string rookie QB.

Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ricky on November 09, 2017, 01:29:25 PM
Belichick is 13-6 when Brady has been out with injury or suspension.  The year TB12 was lost in week 1, Belichick used a back up QB who'd never made a start in either the NFL or college and won 11 games with him.  Last year, he went 3-1 with his back up and third string rookie QB.

I was wondering how long it would take someone to notice this. Cassel steps in, and NE keeps rolling. Same thing with Garoppolo during the "Deflategate" suspension. So, definitely this is the glaring exception. Why does this occur? Is Belichick that good? Is his system that immune to a major shock? I have no idea. But it seems that this is similar to the Yankees of the past. A mediocre player joins them, and suddenly becomes the missing part of a well oiled machine.

Bottom line, I agree. Belichick and New England are the exception. Because QB's that left the team have flopped big time on other teams. So, one exception. Can anyone come up with any more?
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Shinesman on November 09, 2017, 05:42:30 PM
Belichick is 13-6 when Brady has been out with injury or suspension.  The year TB12 was lost in week 1, Belichick used a back up QB who'd never made a start in either the NFL or college and won 11 games with him.  Last year, he went 3-1 with his back up and third string rookie QB.

I was wondering how long it would take someone to notice this. Cassel steps in, and NE keeps rolling. Same thing with Garoppolo during the "Deflategate" suspension. So, definitely this is the glaring exception. Why does this occur? Is Belichick that good? Is his system that immune to a major shock? I have no idea. But it seems that this is similar to the Yankees of the past. A mediocre player joins them, and suddenly becomes the missing part of a well oiled machine.

Bottom line, I agree. Belichick and New England are the exception. Because QB's that left the team have flopped big time on other teams. So, one exception. Can anyone come up with any more?

Years ago I explained this to a friend prior to Brady being the guy he is today. I told him that Belichek created the ultimate system. Do your job and that's it. Before Brady was a superstar he made clear reads and passed to the first open guy. If no one was open he threw it away and protected the ball. Doing this he then got more comfortable that he was able to adjust during plays and is now the guy we see today. New England has weathered injuries everywhere on that team because they play simple football and concentrate on just doing your job and if everyone does, it will work as a whole. They are very successful in this right
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Tony on November 09, 2017, 09:26:12 PM
I honestly have no real opinion on his ability to coach a football team.  I’ve never met the man, or anyone who’s worked for him and I’d be ignorant to judge him in this regard.  The only thing I will offer an opinion on are his press conferences.  I don’t like them much.  MM comes across as bumbling and inarticulate.  He doesn’t appear comfortable - more like put-out and inconvenienced actually.  He appears stubborn and disgusted by many of the questions.  I honestly almost learn nothing from him in these interviews. 

I’m cognizant that being an effective public speaker isn’t a requirement of the job, or an effective measure of his ability to coach (reference Bill Belichick), but being an effective communicator is important, so I hope he’s more inspiring to his players and coaches.

Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ricky on November 10, 2017, 06:44:26 AM
Can MM inspire his team? We'll find out in the next few weeks. Because so far, the team has looked nervous, edgy, worried and altogether not ready for prime time. The defense are making stupid mistakes, while Hundley seems to be have seen the movie "Happy Feet" once too often. Can he instill a sense of confidence in the team? A "just do your job" mentality that works so well in NE? If not, if this team can't function without Rodgers as their QB, well, that is a major problem.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: The GM on November 10, 2017, 07:43:06 AM
Can MM inspire his team? We'll find out in the next few weeks. Because so far, the team has looked nervous, edgy, worried and altogether not ready for prime time. The defense are making stupid mistakes, while Hundley seems to be have seen the movie "Happy Feet" once too often. Can he instill a sense of confidence in the team? A "just do your job" mentality that works so well in NE? If not, if this team can't function without Rodgers as their QB, well, that is a major problem.

Agree, it comes down to coaching and having guys ready to step up when called.  This team has been built like a house of cards. Jordy goes out for the year, team folds like a box.  Same with Rodgers.  This organization has failed miserably at getting backups ready to play.  Need to spread the practice   reps or something because it shows when someone goes down.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Twain on November 10, 2017, 08:08:36 AM
I think McCarthy is an excellent coach, but that being said, I am ready for a change in philosophy.

Hire a talented defensive coordinator for head coach that can put together a top defense.

Bring in an offensive coordinator that doesn't put the game on Rodgers' ability to extend the play.  Do that by putting together an offensive line that can provide a clean pocket against four rushers, and run the ball well when the defense sits back.

I am tired of running three wide outs and Richard Rodgers against 7 man coverage schemes and exposing Rodgers to hits because he is out of the pocket.  Tired of a focus on attacking the perimeter when the NFL has opened up the middle of the field with rule changes..

I get that McCarthy is a good man, and a good coach, will get a job in 5 minutes after being released, and be successful in a new job, but after 12 years in Green Bay I think we have gone stale, and a change in philosophy might improve things.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Pugger on November 10, 2017, 08:24:06 AM
I honestly have no real opinion on his ability to coach a football team.  I’ve never met the man, or anyone who’s worked for him and I’d be ignorant to judge him in this regard.  The only thing I will offer an opinion on are his press conferences.  I don’t like them much.  MM comes across as bumbling and inarticulate.  He doesn’t appear comfortable - more like put-out and inconvenienced actually.  He appears stubborn and disgusted by many of the questions.  I honestly almost learn nothing from him in these interviews. 

I’m cognizant that being an effective public speaker isn’t a requirement of the job, or an effective measure of his ability to coach (reference Bill Belichick), but being an effective communicator is important, so I hope he’s more inspiring to his players and coaches.

Yes, BB isn't the most articulate guy in pressers either.  We can only go on results.  His offenses are usually near the top of the league.  It helps to have a great QB but there were times against Detroit where a veteran QB of even modest skills could have made some of the plays Hundley could/did not.   

However, if he doesn't do something about this defense this offseason I'll be in the front of the crowd calling for his head.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Tony on November 10, 2017, 10:29:08 AM
A common theme I’ve heard from many folks over the last 5-6 years is that all of our schemes, offense and defense, are too predictable!  Even the players are now saying this (reference D Randall last week against Stafford).  I’d really like to see this changed.  You can’t gain a competitive edge when the other team know exactly how to dissect your scheme.  Creativity and surprise, while not getting overly complex - too much to ask?
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Leader on November 10, 2017, 11:33:37 AM
Zach Kruse:
Packers coach Mike McCarthy turned 54 years old today.

<Be sure to get your birthday wishes out today>
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ricky on November 10, 2017, 12:35:36 PM
I think McCarthy is an excellent coach, but that being said, I am ready for a change in philosophy.

Hire a talented defensive coordinator for head coach that can put together a top defense.

Bring in an offensive coordinator that doesn't put the game on Rodgers' ability to extend the play.  Do that by putting together an offensive line that can provide a clean pocket against four rushers, and run the ball well when the defense sits back.

I am tired of running three wide outs and Richard Rodgers against 7 man coverage schemes and exposing Rodgers to hits because he is out of the pocket.  Tired of a focus on attacking the perimeter when the NFL has opened up the middle of the field with rule changes..

I get that McCarthy is a good man, and a good coach, will get a job in 5 minutes after being released, and be successful in a new job, but after 12 years in Green Bay I think we have gone stale, and a change in philosophy might improve things.

So, the Packers need a defensive minded coach. And a top notch offensive coordinator. Two guys who will simply things while being unpredicatable. And, in the meantime, get an OL that (I'll add this little caveat) can stay healthy, and are excellent at both pass blocking and run blocking. And, of course, plan offenses that work and defenses that work. Got it!

Seriously, all your suggestions are terrific. But implementing them is another matter entirely. I'm positive that the coaches have thought of these things, and there are reasons they are doing what they're doing on offense. Defensively? Well,  deadhorse)

Finally, I'll ask some simple questions. Would the Packers have been more successful with another coach? We'll never know. Could another coach lead the team to multiple SB's? Maybe. Could MM? Maybe. Will AR be the same player when he comes back? Will the team stay healthier in the coming seasons? Will the younger players develop and become effective starters? Will the draft picks be immediate help? Will some FA's come in an give the team an immediate boost? And while you're at it, what are the winning numbers going to be in the next Powerball? This final question is of course the most important.  ;)
 
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Twain on November 10, 2017, 01:24:45 PM


So, the Packers need a defensive minded coach. And a top notch offensive coordinator. Two guys who will simply things while being unpredicatable. And, in the meantime, get an OL that (I'll add this little caveat) can stay healthy, and are excellent at both pass blocking and run blocking. And, of course, plan offenses that work and defenses that work. Got it!

Seriously, all your suggestions are terrific. But implementing them is another matter entirely. I'm positive that the coaches have thought of these things, and there are reasons they are doing what they're doing on offense. Defensively? Well,  deadhorse)

Finally, I'll ask some simple questions. Would the Packers have been more successful with another coach? We'll never know. Could another coach lead the team to multiple SB's? Maybe. Could MM? Maybe. Will AR be the same player when he comes back? Will the team stay healthier in the coming seasons? Will the younger players develop and become effective starters? Will the draft picks be immediate help? Will some FA's come in an give the team an immediate boost? And while you're at it, what are the winning numbers going to be in the next Powerball? This final question is of course the most important.  ;)
 

So we should stay the course.   Don't try and protect Rodgers, let him keep running around getting exposed to hits while extending plays, let him either get knocked out for the season or play the last quarter of the season injured as he has for 4 of the last 5 seasons, and have a defense that can't play an effective zone coverage scheme.  Got it!

You are entitled to you opinion Ricky, but I have no idea what it is from what you write.  Snark is not content.

You can mock my viewpoint, but chew on this:  In effectively 10 years as a starter, Aaron Rodgers has been sacked 351 times.  Peyton Manning in 17 years was sacked 303 times.  If the offensive philosophy doesn't change, will Rodgers be able to play as long as Manning?  I don't know, and neither does anyone else, but his injury status over the last 5 years suggests no.  Just sayin.




Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: ricky on November 10, 2017, 02:22:54 PM
So we should stay the course.   Don't try and protect Rodgers, let him keep running around getting exposed to hits while extending plays, let him either get knocked out for the season or play the last quarter of the season injured as he has for 4 of the last 5 seasons, and have a defense that can't play an effective zone coverage scheme.  Got it!

You are entitled to you opinion Ricky, but I have no idea what it is from what you write.  Snark is not content.

You can mock my viewpoint, but chew on this:  In effectively 10 years as a starter, Aaron Rodgers has been sacked 351 times.  Peyton Manning in 17 years was sacked 303 times.  If the offensive philosophy doesn't change, will Rodgers be able to play as long as Manning?  I don't know, and neither does anyone else, but his injury status over the last 5 years suggests no.  Just sayin.

First, sorry about the snark. Uncalled for an undeserved.

Stay the course? Hardly. A defensive makeover is needed. As far as AR getting sacked, he does have a habit of holding onto the ball. Whether this is because his receivers aren't open enough, or he is looking for a larger gain is something that can be debated. Also, the OL has had a run of injuries that is amazingly bad. At the same time, the OL has been built to try to protect the passer. But , just as DB's can't be expected to stay with a receiver forever, an OLman can't be expected to hold his block forever. Expecially if AR moves around, at which time he is much more effective as a passer. A lot of his movement is planned, as he is not a great pocket passer, but outstanding while on the move.

Now, replacing MM with a defensive minded coach has been explored by me in an earlier post. It's not a matter of disagreeing, but of finding the proper person to replace MM. Same thing with an OC. Right now, it seems that AR is comfortable with MM. You apparently want to mess with tha chemistry. I'm not so sure. As stated earlier, its easier to find a decent HC than it is a franchise QB. Much less an all time star like Rodgers. Perhaps the team should be looking to upgrade their WR's so they get open more easily. Or get a better OC who will design plays to accomplish that. And maybe AR should settle for smaller gains, or get rid of the ball more quickly.


Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: RT on November 14, 2017, 07:34:34 AM
Rob Demovsky‏Verified account
@RobDemovsky

Sunday was Mike McCarthy's 50th divisional win since he became the Packers head coach in 2006. The only team with more division wins in that span is the Patriots with 52.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Pugger on November 14, 2017, 09:06:41 AM
A common theme I’ve heard from many folks over the last 5-6 years is that all of our schemes, offense and defense, are too predictable!  Even the players are now saying this (reference D Randall last week against Stafford).  I’d really like to see this changed.  You can’t gain a competitive edge when the other team know exactly how to dissect your scheme.  Creativity and surprise, while not getting overly complex - too much to ask?

Creativity is fine but like Shinesman said in this thread - NE normally doesn't do anything tricky.  They do what Lombardi did - execute the hell out of their plays in their system.  If the players don't screw up they are difficult to stop.
Title: Re: How good a coach is MM really?
Post by: Pugger on November 14, 2017, 09:12:16 AM
So we should stay the course.   Don't try and protect Rodgers, let him keep running around getting exposed to hits while extending plays, let him either get knocked out for the season or play the last quarter of the season injured as he has for 4 of the last 5 seasons, and have a defense that can't play an effective zone coverage scheme.  Got it!

You are entitled to you opinion Ricky, but I have no idea what it is from what you write.  Snark is not content.

You can mock my viewpoint, but chew on this:  In effectively 10 years as a starter, Aaron Rodgers has been sacked 351 times.  Peyton Manning in 17 years was sacked 303 times.  If the offensive philosophy doesn't change, will Rodgers be able to play as long as Manning?  I don't know, and neither does anyone else, but his injury status over the last 5 years suggests no.  Just sayin.

First, sorry about the snark. Uncalled for an undeserved.

Stay the course? Hardly. A defensive makeover is needed. As far as AR getting sacked, he does have a habit of holding onto the ball. Whether this is because his receivers aren't open enough, or he is looking for a larger gain is something that can be debated. Also, the OL has had a run of injuries that is amazingly bad. At the same time, the OL has been built to try to protect the passer. But , just as DB's can't be expected to stay with a receiver forever, an OLman can't be expected to hold his block forever. Expecially if AR moves around, at which time he is much more effective as a passer. A lot of his movement is planned, as he is not a great pocket passer, but outstanding while on the move.

Now, replacing MM with a defensive minded coach has been explored by me in an earlier post. It's not a matter of disagreeing, but of finding the proper person to replace MM. Same thing with an OC. Right now, it seems that AR is comfortable with MM. You apparently want to mess with tha chemistry. I'm not so sure. As stated earlier, its easier to find a decent HC than it is a franchise QB. Much less an all time star like Rodgers. Perhaps the team should be looking to upgrade their WR's so they get open more easily. Or get a better OC who will design plays to accomplish that. And maybe AR should settle for smaller gains, or get rid of the ball more quickly.

I respectfully disagree.  He is fabulous inside or outside the pocket.  Of course his skills at throwing it outside on the run are what separate him from mere mortal QBs.  Geez, I miss watching him play.   :'(  He is better than anyone I've ever seen and I've been watching football longer than I care to admit.   ;)  I suggest we appreciate and cherish our good fortune for the next 5/6 years he still has left.  I doubt we'll see another like him in our lifetime.