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General Category => NFL Talk => Topic started by: marklawrence on May 29, 2018, 03:43:30 AM

Title: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: marklawrence on May 29, 2018, 03:43:30 AM
I must admit I've personally been deeply offended by the players protesting during the national anthem. Now there's a new rule, all players must stand or the team gets penalized. I don't like this either.

I don't believe players have the right to express political views while at work if their bosses say no. For me this was never a first amendment issue, it was always a workplace issue. However, I have never had a job where the workday was started with playing the national anthem, and I never had a job where I was required to publicly stand for the national anthem. While I do stand in public, it's all different for me if suddenly i'm told i'm required as condition of employment.

If I were a team owner I would ask the players if they prefer to stay in the locker room for the anthem. I would have no tolerance for protesters, but neither would I feel good about enforcing this rule.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: ricky on May 29, 2018, 06:01:55 AM
As a retired teacher in Texas, I was expected to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance, and the Texas Pledge of Allegiance every day during class. It was also expected that every student stand and do the same. It was like pulling teeth from an enraged lion to get some of the students to comply. They'd stand reluctantly, sometimes leaning on their desks while the pledges were recited over the intercom, then slump into their desks immediately afterward. Forced displays of "patriotism" are nonsense. And as I've said before, if we're going to force the players to participate in this forced exercise in "patriotism", lets eject any spectator who isn't standing with hand over heart, dutifully mouthing those words. Shut down all concessions and lock up the restrooms and block the exits to prevent anyone from leaving until they've proven their worthiness to remain in the stadium by saying the pledge.

The NFL just made a bad situation worse. So, unless the entire team stays in the locker room, which would seem to be the best solution, lets castigate and boo those players who choose to do so.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: The GM on May 29, 2018, 09:38:29 AM
I like the ruling.   I dont think the anthem should be used as a platform to promote a player's particular agenda whatever it may be (good or bad).   You can stay in the lockerroom and protest all you want.  Good for the NFL for at least trying to end the nonsense.  I'm sure it will still go on in some form, but IMO it has no place during the anthem.   
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: Gregg on May 29, 2018, 10:01:49 AM
I agree with Mark.

I should also add, Colin K is finding out some interesting info during discovery for his lawsuit.

Plus, who the heck would not want Eric Reid in their secondary?
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: ricky on May 29, 2018, 10:57:42 AM
Players shouldn't protest what they see (correctly, I believe) an increased sense of fear and intimidation by the police in the black community. OK. Then exactly why is it that there have to be over displays of "patriotism", meaning military flyovers, military color guards, and huge flags (the bigger the more patriotic?) at games. Just because you're on a football team doesn't mean you've signed away your rights as a citizen. The protests were aimed at excessive police violence against the black community. Not the flag, not the military, not the anthem.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: The GM on May 29, 2018, 11:06:06 AM
I agree with Mark.

I should also add, Colin K is finding out some interesting info during discovery for his lawsuit.

Plus, who the heck would not want Eric Reid in their secondary?

Good players but they come with baggage.  Team are trying to win football games,  I'm not sure each individual owner wants to take that on the distraction or deal with a public that clearly doesn't like it.             
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: Bignutz on May 29, 2018, 11:04:02 PM
It's totally a workplace issue. Not a 1st amendment issue. The NFL has every right to do this IMO. However I'll add that the NFL isn't doing this because they feel the players are disrespecting the flag. I think the NFL is doing this because ultimately the protests are hurting it's bottom line.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: RT on May 30, 2018, 05:40:25 AM
It's totally a workplace issue. Not a 1st amendment issue. The NFL has every right to do this IMO. However I'll add that the NFL isn't doing this because they feel the players are disrespecting the flag. I think the NFL is doing this because ultimately the protests are hurting it's bottom line.

Thank you, 100% correctly capsulated in 5 sentences. Much ado about nothing.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: ricky on May 30, 2018, 06:20:54 AM
It's totally a workplace issue. Not a 1st amendment issue. The NFL has every right to do this IMO. However I'll add that the NFL isn't doing this because they feel the players are disrespecting the flag. I think the NFL is doing this because ultimately the protests are hurting it's bottom line.

Thank you, 100% correctly capsulated in 5 sentences. Much ado about nothing.
.
The players do not think this is "Much ado about nothing." They are not happy about this. And now, teams and teammates have to make decisions on whether to take the field or stay in the locker room. This "issue" was dying on the vine until the flames were fanned by President Trump, who keep on bringing up the subject without prompting. Now, the NFL is being perceived as bowing to political pressure. The NFL made the situation worse, which seems to be their solution to everything- after all, this is the league which still can't define what constitutes a completion.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: marklawrence on May 30, 2018, 07:39:13 AM
Trump the mighty and all powerful commands you to bring him the broom of Al Davis, the wicked owner of the West.

Seriously, you think Roger listens to Trump?
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: ricky on May 30, 2018, 09:38:55 AM
Trump the mighty and all powerful commands you to bring him the broom of Al Davis, the wicked owner of the West.

Seriously, you think Roger listens to Trump?

Yes. Of course, Trump gives the term "bully pulpit" a whole new meaning. Want more evidence that Goodell is willing to bow to pressure? Check out this report from PFT: https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/05/30/jerry-jones-was-proud-to-see-joe-lockhart-go/
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: Twain on May 30, 2018, 02:54:44 PM
I personally believe the NFL made a mistake when they changed from the old practice of playing the national anthem before the teams came out of the locker room.

I think they should go back to that.  Unlike the new rule, it eliminates the problem.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: The GM on May 30, 2018, 04:25:18 PM
I personally believe the NFL made a mistake when they changed from the old practice of playing the national anthem before the teams came out of the locker room.

I think they should go back to that.  Unlike the new rule, it eliminates the problem.

I'll be interested  on seeing if teams do a "all inside" or "all outside" for the anthem.  Also, whats the fan reaction going to be when the players inside (If they are divided, some in and some out) come onto the field after the anthem?  You are basically isolating the protesting players for a crowd reaction as they come out.  I like the rule in principle, but this could actually backfire on the NFL and/or the players.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: marklawrence on May 30, 2018, 10:59:50 PM
You are basically isolating the protesting players for a crowd reaction as they come out.  I like the rule in principle, but this could actually backfire on the NFL and/or the players.

You mean like in 2008, when Wells Fargo didn't need any bailout, but the fed made them (and most everyone else) take one so that the bad banks wouldn't stand out?

. . .  And now it turns out Wells Fargo is the biggest scumbags of them all.

It's clear that either the entire team stands for the anthem, or the entire team sits in the locker room.

I think Kaepernick could get a job with ESPN where all he did was kneel for every single anthem, and ESPN could show that for all the people on the two coasts. He could get 32 jerseys and tell people he had been signed by every team. Until ESPN drops to such low ratings that they shut down. . .

(ps: some months ago I emptied my WF accounts and called to close them. I was referred to my branch and told only they could close then. I called my branch, they told me I had to come in. I told them I was 1800 miles away in Kansas City and that really wasn't happening. Then they told me I could go into a Kansas City branch. There aren't any, WF isn't in Missouri. They suggested I drive 700 miles to Denver. I suggested they attempt parthenogenesis.)
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: scoremore on May 31, 2018, 03:58:53 AM
Goodell is such a moron.  OK the anthem thing is dying down.  So let's just make a new rule piss off the players and start it all over again.  Really stupid. Think everyone understands why the players were doing it.  That's not the issue.  Taking a knee is disrespecting the country.  Also the last thing football fans want to deal with is politics.  Especially from millionaire football players.

Anyway the moron Goodell just insured that this issue will now continue into 2018.  He is the absolute worst.  This issue should have been immediately nipped in the bud when Kap first started pulling this crap.  Had the commish had any balls he would have immediately suspended him.  But no he allows the issue to fester and then compounds it by passing a new rule just to revive protests for another season.

A large number of fans are really upset by this whole fiasco.  Many of which have decided to boycott the game.  The players are really ignorant.  They should realize where their bread is buttered and not upset the fan base.  There are much better ways to bring light to the issue they pretend to care so much about.  Taking a knee during the anthem was not the right way to go about it.  If the players are so concerned they should put their money where their mouth is and  take up the issue on their own time. 

Do they?  Nope.  Because deep down they don't care about anything but themselves.  See right through them an it's a joke.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on May 31, 2018, 01:24:18 PM
I personally believe the NFL made a mistake when they changed from the old practice of playing the national anthem before the teams came out of the locker room.

I think they should go back to that.  Unlike the new rule, it eliminates the problem.

I'd go further. I've stated this before (but it bears repeating). The time for a national anthem (in the sporting arena) is when you play international games. The NFL doesn't do that, so why play the anthem at all. As I said before, almost all Western European countries (I cannot speak for the others) play it when they play International games, not for league games.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: marklawrence on May 31, 2018, 03:48:43 PM
I'd go further. I've stated this before (but it bears repeating). The time for a national anthem (in the sporting arena) is when you play international games. The NFL doesn't do that, so why play the anthem at all. As I said before, almost all Western European countries (I cannot speak for the others) play it when they play International games, not for league games.


But but but if we weren't hyper nationalistic how would we get our boys to ship out to little shit hole countries and risk their lives to "save democracy"
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: Bignutz on May 31, 2018, 08:27:07 PM
Trump the mighty and all powerful commands you to bring him the broom of Al Davis, the wicked owner of the West.

Seriously, you think Roger listens to Trump?

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: Hands on June 01, 2018, 06:06:59 AM
I don't know any specifics, but have read that teams get money from the government for allowing patriotic themes (big flags held by servicemen and women, fly-overs, National Anthem, etc) before games. First off, if true....why? The owners don't need it and I would stop it in a heartbeat if I could. So if you collect money for standing for the Anthem, you damn better stand for it.

Second, yes you have the right to protest. I have the right to not watch. The reason for all of Roger  Goodell's ruling is the viewership decline. Keep protesting, keep losing viewers and the cycle will repeat until your popularity ranks with Girl's field hockey. Exaggeration I know, but the NFL can't afford too much of a slip in ratings and lose their money from the networks. You can blame Trump for initiating the switch by the NFL, but people seemed to be doing their own counter-protest by switching off their TV for NFL games.

Living in Dallas area we read about the perks Goodell got for being the NFL commissioner from his spat with Jerry Jones, and all I can say is WOW! Trust me when I say this…no way he’s going to let the players interfere with his own gravy train or the owners.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: marklawrence on June 01, 2018, 07:42:04 AM
Second, yes you have the right to protest.

Yah? Try putting a communist chinese flag or a sign that says "no gay sinners allowed" in the window of your boss's store and then get back to us about your rights.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: Bignutz on June 01, 2018, 07:42:28 PM
Second, yes you have the right to protest.

Yah? Try putting a communist chinese flag or a sign that says "no gay sinners allowed" in the window of your boss's store and then get back to us about your rights.

Exactly! You have the right to protest, and your boss has the right to fire you for doing it on the job.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on June 02, 2018, 03:39:17 PM
Second, yes you have the right to protest.

Yah? Try putting a communist chinese flag or a sign that says "no gay sinners allowed" in the window of your boss's store and then get back to us about your rights.

Exactly! You have the right to protest, and your boss has the right to fire you for doing it on the job.
In a nutshell, Nutz.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: ricky on June 02, 2018, 04:31:58 PM
Second, yes you have the right to protest.

Yah? Try putting a communist chinese flag or a sign that says "no gay sinners allowed" in the window of your boss's store and then get back to us about your rights.

Not exactly applicable from a private business to a cooperative conglomerate using taxpayer funded facilities. A business that skirts the edges of collusion and monopolistic practices.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: marklawrence on June 02, 2018, 08:14:34 PM
The NFL is a "regulated" monopoly and they use taxpayer subsidized facilities.

They're still a business, and their employees still get paychecks. And can be suspended or fired for misconduct.

Your point is off thread.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on June 03, 2018, 12:26:59 AM
I'd go further. I've stated this before (but it bears repeating). The time for a national anthem (in the sporting arena) is when you play international games. The NFL doesn't do that, so why play the anthem at all. As I said before, almost all Western European countries (I cannot speak for the others) play it when they play International games, not for league games.


But but but if we weren't hyper nationalistic how would we get our boys to ship out to little shit hole countries and risk their lives to "save democracy"

There are no shit hole countries, none, zero, zip. Differing climate, geology and and government, yes. What you would call a shit hole country, I might refer to as a badly governed one.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: ricky on June 03, 2018, 06:58:58 AM
The NFL is a "regulated" monopoly and they use taxpayer subsidized facilities.

They're still a business, and their employees still get paychecks. And can be suspended or fired for misconduct.

Your point is off thread.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. The NFL is a closed system, and effectively regulates itself. A monopoly? Absolutely. The collusion is the salary cap, draft and the ability of teams to terminate contracts with the player then losing his livelihood with no recourse. Sure, the team pays the penalty of having "dead cap" money, but all this is really off topic. The true question is whether blacks in the US are more likely to be mistreated by police. They are. Not on number of incidents, but on number of incidents in relation to percentage of population in the US. The disparity is that blacks are over twice as likely to be mistreated. And this intolerance of blacks seems to be growing. That is the issue the players were trying highlight. Instead, it became a false narrative of disrespect for the flag, military and/or anthem itself.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: marklawrence on June 03, 2018, 08:54:37 AM
The NFL is a monopoly and has a congressional exemption to the anti-trust act. From time to time congress threatens to repeal their exemption if certain conditions are not met. They get the exemption because of the CBA and union.

Blacks are mistreated by police if you count as a percentage of population. They are not mistreated by police or courts if you count as a percentage of crime.

Perhaps the blacks would be happier if they were not policed at all?

Tell me, what's being protested here?

(http://www.ocalapost.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/erica-walker2-701x467.jpg)
Source: http://www.ocalapost.com/woman-fired-from-job-and-blocked-from-facebook-after-she-stomped-on-american-flag/ (http://www.ocalapost.com/woman-fired-from-job-and-blocked-from-facebook-after-she-stomped-on-american-flag/)

I see a couple of women who were most likely raised on welfare, most likely are functionally illiterate, almost certainly are innumerate, most likely unemployed, hate our nation, hate whites and want us to know they're representative of the new black power. I'd be happy to pay them to move to a better country.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: ricky on June 03, 2018, 12:04:05 PM
Tell me, what's being protested here?

(http://www.ocalapost.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/erica-walker2-701x467.jpg)
Source: http://www.ocalapost.com/woman-fired-from-job-and-blocked-from-facebook-after-she-stomped-on-american-flag/ (http://www.ocalapost.com/woman-fired-from-job-and-blocked-from-facebook-after-she-stomped-on-american-flag/)

I see a couple of women who were most likely raised on welfare, most likely are functionally illiterate, almost certainly are innumerate, most likely unemployed, hate our nation, hate whites and want us to know they're representative of the new black power. I'd be happy to pay them to move to a better country.

Apples and oranges. This "protest" is merely posturing by a couple of click-bait seekers. Ah, "New Black PAnthers", eh? Counterproductive morons is more like it. Losers who hide behind "cultural identity" to put forward an anti-white, anti-American agenda. As far as all the other assumptions you're making, I believe that speaks more to your own preconceptions rather than being fact based. Unless you know these women. Are they still unemployed? The article didn't say, only that one of them had been fired from a radio station. 

Now, these two were meaning to be disrespectful. Why? Because they seem to be breatly politically ignorant. This is similar to morons eating Tide Pods or snorting condoms or taking the "cinnamon test/dare/I want to show how stupid I am" challenge. Meanwhile, players protesting during the anthem have a clear set of objectives they want to see addressed, and talked about and hopefully resolved. These women were simply being disrespectful to be disrespectful. Personally, I'll fund their Ancestry DNA test so they can find their homeland, and gladly chip in to have them return to their true "homeland".

As far as the percentage of crime comment, that would take this thread in a totally different direction. I'll do some research and be in touch with you in the next few days. It is always interesting to interact with someone who is not an echo of my own beliefs.

Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: ricky on June 04, 2018, 07:11:48 PM
President Trump just "disinvited" the Eagles from a White House visit because it was unclear how many players would actually attend. So, not attending an event is not acceptable? What a snowflake!

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/06/trump-disinvites-the-philadelphia-eagles-from-the-philadelphia-eagles-white-house-super-bowl-celebration.html

Are players not going to the White House unusual? Yes, but certainly not unprecedented. Here is an article on why this became an event, and what players decided to boycott the event, and why the event was sometimes cancelled:

https://theundefeated.com/features/athletes-passing-on-visiting-the-white-house-is-nothing-new-philadelphia-eagles/

Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: scoremore on June 05, 2018, 06:21:02 AM
President Trump just "disinvited" the Eagles from a White House visit because it was unclear how many players would actually attend. So, not attending an event is not acceptable? What a snowflake!

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/06/trump-disinvites-the-philadelphia-eagles-from-the-philadelphia-eagles-white-house-super-bowl-celebration.html

Are players not going to the White House unusual? Yes, but certainly not unprecedented. Here is an article on why this became an event, and what players decided to boycott the event, and why the event was sometimes cancelled:

https://theundefeated.com/features/athletes-passing-on-visiting-the-white-house-is-nothing-new-philadelphia-eagles/

Wrong Ricky.  Eagles were only going to send a small contingent.  This was not just a few players deciding not to go.  It was a BS decision by the players and Trump called them out rightly so.  More BS from the players.  Hell with them.  He did the right thing.
Title: Re: Standing for the national anthem
Post by: marklawrence on June 05, 2018, 07:04:03 AM
This thread is getting too political. That's my fault. Anyway, it's closed now.