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General Category => Green Bay Packers News Talk => Topic started by: RT on May 16, 2019, 07:19:17 AM

Title: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on May 16, 2019, 07:19:17 AM
Barring injuries it is doubtful there will be much drama in the RB group, but injuries are always a concern at RB. Aaron Jones is probably number one on the depth chart and also the top playmaker out of the backfield, but his injury history may weigh on if they keep a 4th RB on the 53. Jones has missed 4 games in each of his first 2 seasons and was lost for the season in 2 of his 4 college seasons because of injuries. If the Packers are going to keep Jones healthy for a full season it probably requires limiting him to 10-12 touches a game as a change of pace back. Ironically that is what MM was doing and the fanbase, with the media fanning the flames, was unrelenting that Jones needed to be the workhorse. Also ironic is that the first game after MM was fired Jones was given 20 touches and shortly after was lost for the season because of injury.

Depth Chart: Aaron Jones, Jamaal Williams, Dexter Williams, Tra Carson, Kapri Bibbs

Aaron Jones - Has averaged an outstanding 5.5 YPC in his 2 seasons and at times has been electric with the ball in his hands. Has improved each season in his pass blocking. Has caught only 66% of his targets in his first 2 seasons, room for improvement there. Runs physical, but not build to hold up to his physical style. Excellent split carries back.

Jamaal Williams - Has a very physical running style. Caught 69.3% of his targets in his first 2 seasons. Probably the best pass blocking RB on the roster and was the main reason for his high percentage of usage on 3rd down. He is not flashy, but has made a good one-two punch with Jones.

Dexter Williams - 6th round pick is the new kid on the block and will need to earn his spot on the 53. Seems to be a mix of Aaron Jones and Jamaal Williams, he is a one cut slasher with deceptive acceleration. Average 6.3 YPC last season at Notre Dame.

Tra Carson - Carson is a big back at 228 pounds. Was signed as a UDFA in 2016 by Cincinnati and has spent some time on their PS. Played 2 games for Cincinnati and 4 for GB last season on ST's only. For us fans he is basically a unknown talent.

Kapri Bibbs - Bibbs is a player that should be well schooled in the Packers new run game. Has played in Denver, SF and Washington well they were all running the same system. Has logged 28 NFL games and rushed for 311 yards at 4.4 per carry in limited duty in his career. Should flash early because of his advantage in knowing the system already.

Will the Packers carry 3 or 4 RB's on the opening 53? Can Bibbs or Carson finally break into the big leagues? Can Dexter Williams find a niche in MLF offense? Or is ST's his ticket to a roster spot?

However it shakes out it should be good competition.           
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: Hands on May 17, 2019, 06:35:15 AM
I keep thinking, my first problem, that Aaron Jones has had two years of building his body up for the pro game. Maybe we will see it this year, if not the Williams brothers will be carrying a big load. I don't know anything about  Carson and Bibbs other than they sound like a good name for a Law company.
It's clearly AJ's position to lose and if he can stay healthy...I like the potential for a strong running game missing since Eddie Lacy left the team.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on May 17, 2019, 07:49:25 AM
I keep thinking, my first problem, that Aaron Jones has had two years of building his body up for the pro game. Maybe we will see it this year, if not the Williams brothers will be carrying a big load. I don't know anything about  Carson and Bibbs other than they sound like a good name for a Law company.
It's clearly AJ's position to lose and if he can stay healthy...I like the potential for a strong running game missing since Eddie Lacy left the team.

I believe they will be smart and manage him to attempt to last the season. The most important thing is to get to the playoffs, but also get to the playoffs with your best players available to play. It was one of the things I respected about MM, he didn't kill off his RB's in the first half of the season and they had juice for the December-January run. If Jones is asked to carry the ball 20-25 times a game to start the season he won't make it to the mid-season point and that does the Packers no good. Only time he should get that many touches is in the playoffs. At one point last season he said he was 190 something pounds and his position coach when ask later in the week confirmed that he was under 200 pounds. Backs that are physical runners and are 200 pounds or less can not hold up to 20-25 car crashes week after week.   
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: Hands on May 17, 2019, 08:41:48 AM
His build is more of a third down back for sure. His quickness needs to be available as you say during the playoffs. I'm surprised and disappointed that he's that light. He may have had some fat and now down to his fighting weight, just wish that weight was higher.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on May 17, 2019, 09:12:28 AM
His build is more of a third down back for sure. His quickness needs to be available as you say during the playoffs. I'm surprised and disappointed that he's that light. He may have had some fat and now down to his fighting weight, just wish that weight was higher.

Their may be some truth to your 'fighting weight' comment. This is a link to a comment from Aaron Rodgers from April 12th from the start of the off season workout program this year.

www.espn.com/blog/green-bay-packers/post/_/id/47040/no-more-belly-jokes-from-aaron-rodgers-to-aaron-jones


Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: craig on May 17, 2019, 11:26:09 AM
20-25 carries, no way.  But I'd think there could be some occasional matchup games with more than 10-12?  Not on a routine basis, but if there are some games where an opponent is defending in such a way that they're run-vulnerable, and if it's a game where giving Jones some extra touches can change the game for you, I could see an occasional 13-16-touch game. 

Good insight, though, that you don't want to grind him, and that **IF** you can get into the playoffs, you'd like him to be available and still healthy enough to be effective.   

I also think the distribution of touches between "carries" versus "catches" is also a question.  I think a quick, shifty guy like that might be able to make some plays in space, if given a little running room and space to set up some moves.  And perhaps with a strong guy like ESB running ahead and blocking....  :)  Rodgers has never really thrived or had great touch in throwing short stuff to backs, so maybe that's not going to be a thing.  But there might perhaps be some good-yardage opportunities there that will flow and emerge within the offense. 

One of the puzzles with Jones is that some of his qualities seem to fit "3rd down back", but to date his blocking has not.  It may be just as well if he remains an early-down-back only, but he might be a fun option on 3rd downs if occasionally used in that way. 

To large degree, I think the well-being of Jones and the running game will heavily depend on the Williams duo.  Lots easier to rest Jones appropriately and limit his grind, *IF* the alternatives are performing at a good level.  A coach tends to get tempted to overuse the better player if use of the lesser player is notably less productive.  Sure hoping that Williams has a very solid year, and that Dexter looks good if given some occasional spot snaps.  Will be curious to see how Dexter looks in terms of awareness and pass protection, and also how he looks as a pass-catcher.  Given the beating that backs take, it would be a huge break if Dexter emerged as a good player who can next-man-up with no hesitation or regret. 
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on May 17, 2019, 12:12:33 PM
Agree craig that the pitch count would have some flexibility to it. It is not the MLB with a starting pitcher reaching 100 pitches and the manager pulls him with a 2-2 count on the other teams pitcher. It would be a week to week usage thing, but at the end of the season his total carry volume should probably be in that 180-200 range in order to best give him a chance to make the season. IMO 
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: dannobanano on May 17, 2019, 01:33:42 PM

Rodgers has never really thrived or had great touch in throwing short stuff to backs, so maybe that's not going to be a thing.  But there might perhaps be some good-yardage opportunities there that will flow and emerge within the offense. 



To large degree, I think the well-being of Jones and the running game will heavily depend on the Williams duo.


   
Will be curious to see how Dexter looks in terms of awareness and pass protection, and also how he looks as a pass-catcher.  Given the beating that backs take, it would be a huge break if Dexter emerged as a good player who can next-man-up with no hesitation or regret.



Beyond a screen pass, here and there, the MM offense didn't include passing to running backs as any consistent part of his offense, so Rodgers was rarely asked to make those kinds of throws. Since it is a staple of the MLF offense, Rodgers will get plenty of practice at it and he will be fine.

Jamaal Williams is very good as a receiver, but has been used primarily as a screen pass option. Remains to be seen if he can run the routes of the MLF offense with the proficiency that is needed. J-Will is also a very solid blocker in pass pro, so he will get his fair share of reps in games.

Watch game tape on Dex-Will. He's a very decent receiver out of the backfield. Doesn't fight the ball into his hands at all on swing passes. Very natural, hands catcher. But he still needs to pump up his pass pro.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: #66 on May 17, 2019, 02:24:48 PM
I keep thinking, my first problem, that Aaron Jones has had two years of building his body up for the pro game. Maybe we will see it this year, if not the Williams brothers will be carrying a big load. I don't know anything about  Carson and Bibbs other than they sound like a good name for a Law company.
It's clearly AJ's position to lose and if he can stay healthy...I like the potential for a strong running game missing since Eddie Lacy left the team.
Word is that AJ added muscle this year.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: dannobanano on May 17, 2019, 02:44:18 PM
They said that last year as well.

https://www.packers.com/news/bigger-stronger-aaron-jones-aims-to-be-as-explosive-as-ever-in

The big question is...……CAN he keep the weight for the whole season?

Jones started the 2018 season at 208 lbs and finished well below 200 lbs.

He's got to be able to hold that weight if he's got any chance of becoming a durable running back that can be relied on to available Sunday in, Sunday out.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: craig on May 17, 2019, 03:33:35 PM
Rodgers has never really thrived or had great touch in throwing short stuff to backs, so maybe that's not going to be a thing.  But there might perhaps be some good-yardage opportunities there that will flow and emerge within the offense.

Beyond a screen pass, here and there, the MM offense didn't include passing to running backs as any consistent part of his offense, so Rodgers was rarely asked to make those kinds of throws. Since it is a staple of the MLF offense, Rodgers will get plenty of practice at it and he will be fine....

You're probably right.  But, I'm not 100% sure yet! 

It's popular now to blame MM for anything and everything and to assume he's the dumbest guy with the worst o-system in history.  (OK, I'm hyperbolizing there, obviously!  :):) 

But I think it's possible that he tried not to ask his QB's to do stuff that they weren't very effective at.  I think there were a number of attempts, during the James Starks era for example, to have Rodgers throw him swing passes sweeping around the corner. 

But my subjective recall is that Rodgers wasn't good at it.  He'd throw rockets when the back wasn't many strides away.  He'd throw rockets behind the guy or at his knees, so that any momentum was totally lost.  Guy would have to stop, or turn around, or do really difficult body twists to get his hands on the ball; the momentum was lost and even if he did catch the ball, he'd have to start up from scratch to get some speed going.  A lot of the QB's who are good at those plays throw it pretty soft, with good touch, and lead the runner, so that the guy has time to prepare his hands in front of him, and to adjust his footsteps so that he can catch the ball in stride and in balance and take off.

My memory may be subjective and very faulty, I know that.  But I just don't think Aaron has ever really liked making the soft lead throws, and I don't think he's ever had good placement accuracy to make it as easy as possible for the back to both catch and then to run.  Maybe my memory is crazy.  Or maybe it was all MM's fault. 
And maybe at this point in his career, MLF and Getsy are going to help him do it effectively. 

But it may simply be something that isn't really within Rodgers' capacity. 

That said, success if a TREMENDOUS reinforcer.  And so if practice.  If they have some success with it, and run more, Rodgers may get better quickly, and may be increasingly enthusiastic and invested in optimizing those throws.  He loves winning and having the offense click, so *IF* he can see these sorts of plays as working well, maybe it will be very self-reinforcing for good. 
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: B on May 19, 2019, 06:48:48 AM
craig, I think it is less a product of Rodgers lacking the skill "wasn't good at it" as it is that he wasn't very patient with it. I think in the last several years Aaron got addicted to the big dramatic throw. I saw him pass by on open receivers and extend plays looking for the bigger plays too often.

Your point is well taken regarding mob scapegoating of McCarthy.

For what its worth, in 2007 with Favre as his QB, running back receiving stats were as follows:
 ~~ Ryan Grant 37 targets, 30 rec. for 145 yds.   
 ~~ Brandon Jackson 22 targets, 16 rec. for 130 yds.   
 ~~ DeShawn Wynn   14 targets, 9 rec. for 73 yds.   
 ~~ Vernand Morency 39 targets, 30 rec. for 199 yds.
 ~~ Korey Hall 11 targets, 8 rec. for 49 yds.
 ~~ John Kuhn 3 targets, 2 rec. for 7 yds.
TOTAL 122 targets, 95 rec. for 603 yds

In 2008, Aaron's first as a starter, running back stats were:
 ~~ Ryan Grant 22 targets, 18 rec. for 116 yds.   
 ~~ Brandon Jackson 39 targets, 30 rec. for 185 yds.
 ~~ John Kuhn 7 targets,  4 rec. for 21 yds.   
 ~~ DeShawn Wynn 3 targets, 3 rec. for 30 yds.   
 ~~ Kregg Lumpkin 3 targets, 3 rec for 22 yds.
 ~~ Korey Hall 7 targets 7 rec for 38 yds.   
TOTAL 81 targets, 65 rec. for 412 yds.

In 2010, when the Packers won the Super Bowl:
 ~~ Brandon Jackson 50 targets , 43 rec. for 342 yds.   
 ~~ John Kuhn 18 targets 15 rec. for 97 yds.
 ~~ Dimitri Nance 4 targets 3 rec. for 30 yds
 ~~ James Starks 4 targets 2 rec. for 15 yds.
 ~~ Quinn Johnson 4 targets 3 rec. for 26 yds.
 ~~ Korey Hall 1 target, 1 rec. for 9 yds.   
TOTAL 81 targets, 67 rec. for 519 yds.

Last season, 2018:
 ~~ Aaron Jones 35 targets, 26 rec. for 206 yds.
 ~~ Jamaal Williams 41 targets, 27 rec. 210 yds.
 ~~ Ty Montgomery 23 targets, 15 rec. 170 yds.
Too lazy to breakdown the Cobb and Adams lined up in backfield
TOTAL 99 targets, 68 rec. 586 yds,   

Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on May 19, 2019, 07:03:25 AM
That is a very good posting B.

I also have felt the same about Rodgers and check downs as the years have went by. MM's offense oversimplified was A) TD, B) check down, but as time went on it became A) TD , B) Rodgers scrambles in an attempt for TD. It almost seemed like Rodgers resented the idea of a check down. 
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: dannobanano on May 19, 2019, 07:33:45 AM
The system MLF is installing will be involving RB's in the passing game as a staple part of the offense, instead of as a check down as it was for the last 13 seasons.

There will be plenty of pass plays designed to get the ball into the hands of playmakers like Aaron Jones as a primary option rather than as a check down option.

That will be a marked difference from the past.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on May 19, 2019, 08:33:30 AM
Packers RB receptions 2018:

Jamaal Williams 27
Aaron Jones 26
Ty Montgomery 15
Kapri Bibbs 3

Total 71

Titans RB receptions 2018:

Dion Lewis 59
Derrick Henry 15

Total 74

Not buying the big difference until I actually see it, danno. It may sound good that MLF is going to make Rodgers make those throws, but Rodgers will have opinions to get out of those plays. We will see soon enough the end results.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: dannobanano on May 19, 2019, 09:44:01 AM
Packers RB receptions 2018:

Jamaal Williams 27
Aaron Jones 26
Ty Montgomery 15
Kapri Bibbs 3

Total 71

Titans RB receptions 2018:

Dion Lewis 59
Derrick Henry 15

Total 74

Not buying the big difference until I actually see it, danno. It may sound good that MLF is going to make Rodgers make those throws, but Rodgers will have opinions to get out of those plays. We will see soon enough the end results.

Not debating the number of receptions to RB's.

The gist of my point was regarding how many of the RB receptions, when comparing the Titans and Packers numbers, can be attributed to the RB's being the primary target as opposed to being a check down option.

My contention is that the RB's in MLF's offense will be primary targets more often than they have been in more recent Green Bay offenses. Green Bay could be moving more towards a horizontal (more traditional west coast) offense as opposed to being more vertical as they had become over the last several years. Doing so puts the ball in playmakers hands, like Jones, and let's them get YAC as opposed to forcing the ball down the field in a vertical passing game.

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/film-study-lafleurs-playbook-swing-pass-207


Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on May 20, 2019, 10:44:37 AM
Thanks for sharing danno.

I have been watching much of the breakdown of MLF's offense that people have been putting out there and personally am not overly impressed. I don't think any of what he does is cutting edge and is only a slit spinoff of what many others are already doing including MM's offense. The highlighted swing pass in the link is only a slit variation of the same play that MM would run with Randall Cobb and others. In this case the ball go's to a RB with 2 WR's acting as lead blockers, Packers fans have seen that play a 1000 times already.   
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: craig on May 20, 2019, 12:21:46 PM
craig, I think it is less a product of Rodgers lacking the skill "wasn't good at it" as it is that he wasn't very patient with it. I think in the last several years Aaron got addicted to the big dramatic throw. ...

For what its worth, in 2007 with Favre as his QB, running back receiving stats were as follows:
TOTAL 122 targets, 95 rec. for 603 yds

In 2008, Aaron's first as a starter, running back stats were:
TOTAL 81 targets, 65 rec. for 412 yds.

In 2010, when the Packers won the Super Bowl:   
TOTAL 81 targets, 67 rec. for 519 yds.

Last season, 2018:
TOTAL 99 targets, 68 rec. 586 yds,

Thanks for numbers, B and Danno.  I'm not sure what to conclude? 
1.  That Aaron threw 20% more often to backs in 2018 than in his early seasons, I'm not quite sure how that affirms that his patience with it has changed, or that he's gotten addicted to big dramatic throws?  Both his throws and the yardage gained are higher 2018 than they were in 2008 or 2010.  (Completion percentage is lower, of course
2.  danno's numbers show MLF's backs caught 74 passes, and Packers caught 71.  I'm not sure i see any meaningful or impactful difference there.  I get the notion that perhaps getting to approximately the same numbers may have come in different ways, perhaps a higher fraction the Titan's 74 were intentional, and a higher fraction of the Packers 71 were "checkdown". 

But if we end up in the 70-75 range again, I'm not sure how I see either that, or apportioning them somewhat differently between intended-versus-checkdown, is going to dramatically improve the offensive efficiency?  Am I missing something? 
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: craig on May 20, 2019, 12:35:12 PM
Not sure I'm seeing a lot of hope for some of you guys for the offense being championship caliber.  RT has the QB "resenting" certain passes.  Bruce has the QB "addicted".  I have the QB throwing balls to RB's that are "rockets" and lack "touch".  I've questioned the QB's recent accuracy on throws at all levels, whether short to RB's, deep balls, or just in-between throws.  All three of danno, Bruce, and RT seem to find fault with the QB's decision-making.  Bruce has the QB not throwing to open receivers underneath. 

Seems to me that I'm seeing a lot of doubts regarding the Packers QB play, including both decision-making and accuracy.  Of all the things that are going to impact the Packers season, none is more crucial than getting really, really high-level play from the QB. 

*IF* the QB plays at an elite level, I think the o-line, the pass-protection, the run-blocking, the running backs, the tight ends, and the young wide receivers, I think that whole offensive group has a chance to play really well TOGETHER, and to be score enough to be a playoff team, perhaps even a SB-possibility, if the defense ends up being really good too. 

But I don't think the surrounding talent on offense is so superlative that the offense is going to really excel, **IF** the QB is not executing and making decisions at a high level, and throwing with great accuracy. 

Rodgers is one member of a 53-man roster.  But I don't think it can be overstated how critical it is that he be performing at a really high, and consistently high, level. 
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: B on May 20, 2019, 01:59:12 PM
Interesting observations craig.

I'm actually quite optimistic that the offense can be more effective and efficient with the Zone running game and the passing game being built off meaningful play-action -- with the very real threat of a run.

I think it will help the offense have more Rhythm, and I actually think it will be mutually beneficial with a more athletic and dynamic defense 2019.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: dannobanano on May 20, 2019, 02:15:05 PM
Interesting observations craig.

I'm actually quite optimistic that the offense can be more effective and efficient with the Zone running game and the passing game being built off meaningful play-action -- with the very real threat of a run.

I think it will help the offense have more Rhythm, and I actually think it will be mutually beneficial with a more athletic and dynamic defense 2019.

I agree B. I've read from multiple sources that one of the things that will benefit the offense this year will be a play-caller that will get Rodgers into a rhythm. That seemed to be something that was hard to find the last few year, for whatever the reason.

An improved OL, a realistic threat of a running attack, a more effective PA passing, and an emphasis on building a rhythm on offense will go a long way to making the offense much better this year.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: craig on May 20, 2019, 03:21:49 PM
Interesting observations craig.

I'm actually quite optimistic that the offense can be more effective and efficient with the Zone running game and the passing game being built off meaningful play-action -- with the very real threat of a run.

I think it will help the offense have more Rhythm, and I actually think it will be mutually beneficial with a more athletic and dynamic defense 2019.

I agree B. I've read from multiple sources that one of the things that will benefit the offense this year will be a play-caller that will get Rodgers into a rhythm. That seemed to be something that was hard to find the last few year, for whatever the reason.

An improved OL, a realistic threat of a running attack, a more effective PA passing, and an emphasis on building a rhythm on offense will go a long way to making the offense much better this year.

I love the concept, and agree that the offense never seemed to sustain a rhythm, even within a single game much less over a stretch of games. 

But I wonder if that will actually happen.  I sure hope it does, and hope springs eternal.  But I wonder how much the MLF-system is going to help with that?   I guess we'll wait and see.  I'll believe it if I see it; I'm probably a little hesitant for now. 

I hope the new staff is able to coach up some easy open receivers and some easy completions for Rodgers.  I'm a believe that for most QB's, and Aaron especially, the best way to establish some "rhythm" is to get some volume of throws.  Sometimes you sit for a week, you come out all adrenalined up, and the first throw or two can be a little wild.  Sometimes you sit on the bench during a long possession for the opponent, and first throw back on the field can again be a little wild. 

Bhe best way for rhythm is to pile up some completions.  1-2-3-punt possessions don't do that.  Really difficult throws don't either.  I think somehow getting some easier completions and being able to sequence some 1st downs is the key to getting the QB into a groove, into an accuracy rhythm.  And since the running lives off of respect for the passing game, I think QB rhythm is crucial to overall rhythm. 

The common assumption is that running a lot helps the passing game.  In some ways yes.  But if the QB isn't getting many throws, I think it's harder to find and to sustain a passing rhythm.  3rd-and-6 plays where the pass-rush is on don't help, either.  So I hope all the run stuff doesn't run-run our way into lots of 3rd-and-6. 

I wonder how crucial O-line help will be, and whether Billy Turner is good or not?  Seems like everything is so much easier, rhythm-wise, **IF** the QB trusts his line, and **IF** running plays are gaining good yardage and really stressing the defense, as opposed to giving them some free downs and walking right into the 3rd-down situations that they want.  Coordinators know the weak spots, so I think they attacked the RG spot pretty often last year.  Having an o-line with no weak spots might really help for rhythm and consistency. 
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: dannobanano on May 20, 2019, 04:50:41 PM
  I hope the new staff is able to coach up some easy open receivers and some easy completions for Rodgers.  I'm a believe that for most QB's, and Aaron especially, the best way to establish some "rhythm" is to get some volume of throws.  Sometimes you sit for a week, you come out all adrenalined up, and the first throw or two can be a little wild.  Sometimes you sit on the bench during a long possession for the opponent, and first throw back on the field can again be a little wild.

Bhe best way for rhythm is to pile up some completions.  1-2-3-punt possessions don't do that.  Really difficult throws don't either.  I think somehow getting some easier completions and being able to sequence some 1st downs is the key to getting the QB into a groove, into an accuracy rhythm.  And since the running lives off of respect for the passing game, I think QB rhythm is crucial to overall rhythm. 

The common assumption is that running a lot helps the passing game.  In some ways yes.  But if the QB isn't getting many throws, I think it's harder to find and to sustain a passing rhythm.  3rd-and-6 plays where the pass-rush is on don't help, either.  So I hope all the run stuff doesn't run-run our way into lots of 3rd-and-6. 

I wonder how crucial O-line help will be, and whether Billy Turner is good or not?  Seems like everything is so much easier, rhythm-wise, **IF** the QB trusts his line, and **IF** running plays are gaining good yardage and really stressing the defense, as opposed to giving them some free downs and walking right into the 3rd-down situations that they want.  Coordinators know the weak spots, so I think they attacked the RG spot pretty often last year.  Having an o-line with no weak spots might really help for rhythm and consistency.

Best way to cure this problem is to give your QB shorter passes that he is comfortable with and likely to have a higher % chance to complete, rather than pushing it 20-30 yds down the field. Short, quick stuff that gets the QB past that adrenaline rush.

Calling vertical throws too much makes the passing offense predictable and easy to defense. How many times did we hear from other teams that they pretty much knew what kind of pass play was coming? Quick, short/shallow, crossing, slants etc. The defense can't sit back and protect deep. Keeping it mixed up between short, intermediate, vertical, AND runs doesn't let the defense get comfy in thinking they know whats coming next. Keeping them on their heels is what will make the offense more effective.

What we may see a little more of is back to a Holmgren style WCO, where he used the short pass to RB's, TE's, and WR's to set up the run. Time will tell, but I get the feeling this offense will be more designed to move the chains rather than hit the home run. #1) you control the clock with run and short pass. #2) The longer your offense is on the field, the more you tire out the opposing defense. #3) By accomplishing #1 & #2, you have a rested and fresh defense to attack the opposing offense.

While there is still reason for apprehension of the OL, they are (on paper) way-way ahead of where they were last year at this time.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on May 30, 2019, 09:40:20 AM
(https://static.clubs.nfl.com/image/private/t_editorial_landscape_12_desktop/f_auto/packers/upywkhzjqrkvb7zrdisg.jpg)

Jamaal Williams looking relaxed and enjoying life.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7RvmLkVsAAgvKn.jpg)

.........and here is Aaron Jones.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on June 04, 2019, 05:52:16 AM
In Aaron Jones first few years their were times that I got the feeling that he was not the most professional individual on the team, sounds like he may be taking his job a little more seriously this year.

These are some notes from a Chris Havel story.

Jones, who has failed to finish each of his first two NFL seasons because of injuries, arrived in tip-top shape. He believes it will increase his durability and ultimately his production.

His 5.47 yards-per-carry average was tops in the NFL. But he only had 133 carries in 12 games. He missed the first two games of 2018 to a suspension. He missed the last two games to injury.

In hopes of upping his game, and improving his health, Jones dramatically altered his diet. He cut out the candy and replaced it with quinoa.
“I was big into candy,” Jones told reporters. “I’ll turn and see candy and I’m like, ‘Man, I want that.’ But I know how I feel in my body so that’s a big thing. I’ve been eating very clean – chicken, rice, sweet potatoes, steak, quinoa, things like that – just very clean.”
Jones said he’s always liked good food.
“It was just hard to put the candy down,” he said.

Jones, who weighs 205, reduced his body fat from 11 percent to 5.3 percent while maintaining his weight.

Meantime, Williams dropped his body fat while holding tight at a lean 218 pounds. He said it will increase his agility and should make him more explosive.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on June 07, 2019, 09:02:48 AM

 
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Watching 2018 Titans film last night, reviewing how they targeted their RBs. Couldn’t find any passes over 8 yards.

Sure enough per @PFF the Titans didn’t attempt a single pass to a RB over 10 yards.

Rams 2017 (LaFleur) only attempted 1, Jaguars 2018 (Hackett) only attempted 3.

The creative passing game with the RB's may be a false narrative.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: craig on June 07, 2019, 09:14:16 AM
...The creative passing game with the RB's may be a false narrative.

Thanks. 

I think there may be several other false narratives going around....
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: dannobanano on June 07, 2019, 10:01:40 AM

 
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Watching 2018 Titans film last night, reviewing how they targeted their RBs. Couldn’t find any passes over 8 yards.

Sure enough per @PFF the Titans didn’t attempt a single pass to a RB over 10 yards.

Rams 2017 (LaFleur) only attempted 1, Jaguars 2018 (Hackett) only attempted 3.

The creative passing game with the RB's may be a false narrative.

I'm not sure it's a false narrative. It may just be that the media/fans misunderstood what the narrative intent was.

From what I have read this off season is that the intention of the passing game to the RB's was two fold. (1) short quick passes and then let them get YAC in space, and (2) to use PA to running backs towards the perimeter to create a vacuum over the middle for TE's/Slot WR's to make the most of.


Case in point...…………

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/film-study-lafleurs-playbook-delay-middle-613



JMHO, but I think we will see passes to the RB's limited to quick flat passes, drag/underneath routes, screen plays, and an infrequent wheel route.

The one RB position that could be more of an intermediate vertical route type would be the FB/H-Back, especially from the slot.

Right now Vitale fits that role, but he could get beat out in camp by another player too.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on June 14, 2019, 02:03:44 PM
This is a little surprising to me.

The Packers have cut veteran RB Kapri Bibbs. I actually thought we might see Tra Carson cut because he was not active during the OTA's and we were getting a few positive reviews about Bibbs.

Guessing we will see a claim or signing in the next day or two.

Or the Josh Jones for Duke Johnson trade that I do not think is a good idea, but something is up.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on June 14, 2019, 02:21:56 PM
Looking at yesterdays waiver wire, RB James Williams was waived by the Chiefs and he is a very similar RB to Bibbs at 300K a year less. Just brainstorming here.

The Lions also released blocking TE Michael Roberts and the Bills released TE Mik'Quan Dean who the Packers showed interest in the pre draft process.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on June 17, 2019, 02:06:13 PM
Looking at yesterdays waiver wire, RB James Williams was waived by the Chiefs and he is a very similar RB to Bibbs at 300K a year less. Just brainstorming here.

The Lions also released blocking TE Michael Roberts and the Bills released TE Mik'Quan Dean who the Packers showed interest in the pre draft process.

The Green Bay Packers have claimed tight end Michael Roberts off waivers from the Detroit Lions, per the NFL’s transaction log.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: dannobanano on June 17, 2019, 06:55:47 PM
Looking at yesterdays waiver wire, RB James Williams was waived by the Chiefs and he is a very similar RB to Bibbs at 300K a year less. Just brainstorming here.

The Lions also released blocking TE Michael Roberts and the Bills released TE Mik'Quan Dean who the Packers showed interest in the pre draft process.

The Green Bay Packers have claimed tight end Michael Roberts off waivers from the Detroit Lions, per the NFL’s transaction log.


I like this move. He was an emerging combo TE coming out of college, and he caught a ton of TD's his senior year before getting drafted.

I had him as a 4th round possible consideration for the Packers in the that draft.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/michael-roberts?id=2558049

[As a senior, Roberts became quarterback Logan Woodside's favorite red zone target, scoring 16 times (sixth-most in the FBS) on 45 receptions that covered 533 yards.

Roberts is a red zone monster (scored a TD every 3.1 receptions in career) who could emerge as a Stafford favorite in that area.

Very capable run blocker. Operates from strong base and utilizes lengths well. Sinks hips to brace up and neutralize defensive ends with leverage and uses hips and shoulder turn to steer out of the play. Has experience blocking from in-line and from wing spot.

One season of "wow" production, but has NFL size and length. Roberts' tape shows inconsistent effort from a blocking standpoint, but it also shows the strength and ability to handle those chores on the next level. He should be a functional receiver target as well and could come in as a third tight end with the ability to work his way up the ladder.]



Maybe MLF has a better plan on how to utilize his ability more than the kitty's did?

Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on June 24, 2019, 09:24:44 AM
The Packers currently only have 4 RB's on their roster and I would think they are hunting hard to add one more before training camp starts. Last year the Packers went to camp with five and that is light by most teams standards. In reviewing every teams RB depth charts it breaks down this way, 10 teams are carrying seven - 14 teams are carrying six - 7 teams are carrying five - the Packers are the only team carrying 4. With MM in the past putting more time in on the passing game and less on the running game 5 seemed to be fine, but with MLF's focus on the running game there is just no way 4 RB's is doable for training camp. 

I don't expect an aging veteran to be added as a camp body, but more likely a younger player with PC potential. If one of the teams carrying 7 should waive a younger RB as they massage their rosters ahead of training camp it will not be surprising to see Gute active claiming a player. In scanning the FA lists their isn't anyone that jumps out, but in reviewing rookies that went undrafted there are few that could be interesting. Not sure what the story is with LJ Scott out of Michigan State, the Ravens signed him after the draft and waived him after their rookie mini camp. The same thing happened with A.J. Ouellette out of Ohio after the Saints rookie camp and James Williams out of Washington State after Chiefs camp.

Would not be surprised if the Packers had any of these players in for a workout in the near future. 
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: dannobanano on June 24, 2019, 11:32:47 AM
All of this makes me really scratch my head wondering why they let Bibbs go, and especially after he had several splash plays in OTA's??

But, Yeah………..I agree that it would make sense to see another RB added before/during training camp.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: craig on June 24, 2019, 09:55:13 PM
Is the concern that having only four will make them take too many snaps in practice and wear them out? 

Or that 4 is fine, so long as they're healthy; but as soon as 1 or 2 is in the ice bath, then they won't have enough to run practices right? 
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: craig on June 25, 2019, 07:09:27 AM
The release of Bibbs has been noted as a surprise by RT and danno, and perhaps others.  I agree with RT that we'll add another RB (or two).  For camp body to avoid pressure to over-work the existing guys, and as a younger guy with PS-eligibility if he proves worthy. 

I'm guessing several possible hypothetical factors for Bibbs:
1.  PS eligibility.  A depth camp guy should ideally be PS-eligible, so that *IF* he looks impressive enough for the 63-man, you can keep him.  As a 6th-year vet, Bibbs doesn't fit. 
2.  Outside run.  MLF has made allusions to outside running being a key element.  My understanding is that Bibbs profiled as more of a tough, inside runner.  Maybe a non-ideal fit? 
3.  Courtesy move?  If his skill-set is not an ideal match for what MLF wants, perhaps they thought they'd be doing him a favor to free him early, so he can find an offense where his skills best align?  Rather than just keeping him as a camp body with no PS-potential, and releasing him too late for his own career welfare?  Perhaps mutual sense to let both him and the Packers start hunting sooner for somewhat better fits?
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: B on June 25, 2019, 07:35:47 AM
Of course Arian Foster (Texans, Dolphins); Priest Holmes (Kansas City); LeGarrette Blount (Buccaneers, Patriots, Steelers, Eagles, Lions); Fred Jackson (Bills, Seahawks); C.J. Anderson (Broncos, Raiders)... Are just a few examples of camp bodies/UDFA running backs that put together pretty impressive performances despite once being dismissed as nothing more than "camp-bodies..." just sayin'
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: craig on June 25, 2019, 12:00:09 PM
:):)  If Gute scouts some street guys with that capacity, I don't know why he's waiting to sign them.  He should do so sooner rather than later, IMO?  Why isn't he?   

Not to be overlay nuanced, but I don't think "UDFA" = "camp body".  A lot of UDFA are signed very quickly after the draft, have multiple teams interested in signing them after the draft, and have lots of fans and posts considering their possibilities to make the league and to become good players. 
*For example, this year UDFA's like Nijam, Roberts, Ramsey, Ento, Williams, etc.. would not normally be perceived as "camp bodies".  Those guys (and more) are all guys who are perceived as having quite realistic trajectories to becoming useful NFL players.  Maybe a PS year or two away, or an injury away, but guys who are perceived as real NFL prospects. 
*Last year Lancaster was an UDFA, but he was pretty obviously a prospect, not a camp body. 
*Back in his year, Brice was obviously a prospect, Evans, Donatello, etc.. 
*I suspect Holmes and Foster were likewise viewed by their team and their fans as real prospects, as "Wow, how did they not get drafted?" prospects. 

After the 250 guys get drafted, there are another 400 who get signed as UDFA. Guys on the street today didn't just miss the top-250; they missed the next 400 as well.  Holmes and Blount may have gone undrafted, but they were included in the top 750, no? 

Of course, to be one of the top thousand prospects coming out of college is still really good, and it's possible that being outside the top-750 doesn't preclude someday playing in the NFL.  But I suspect the NFL-success % declines who aren't perceived as worth a next-400 UDFA contract during the ensuing weeks?

As for Bibbs, I don't think he was likely to emerge as the next Fred Jackson or Arian Foster. 
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: dannobanano on June 25, 2019, 01:13:49 PM
:):)  If Gute scouts some street guys with that capacity, I don't know why he's waiting to sign them.  He should do so sooner rather than later, IMO?  Why isn't he?   

Not to be overlay nuanced, but I don't think "UDFA" = "camp body".  A lot of UDFA are signed very quickly after the draft, have multiple teams interested in signing them after the draft, and have lots of fans and posts considering their possibilities to make the league and to become good players. 
*For example, this year UDFA's like Nijam, Roberts, Ramsey, Ento, Williams, etc.. would not normally be perceived as "camp bodies".  Those guys (and more) are all guys who are perceived as having quite realistic trajectories to becoming useful NFL players.  Maybe a PS year or two away, or an injury away, but guys who are perceived as real NFL prospects. 
*Last year Lancaster was an UDFA, but he was pretty obviously a prospect, not a camp body. 
*Back in his year, Brice was obviously a prospect, Evans, Donatello, etc.. 
*I suspect Holmes and Foster were likewise viewed by their team and their fans as real prospects, as "Wow, how did they not get drafted?" prospects. 

After the 250 guys get drafted, there are another 400 who get signed as UDFA. Guys on the street today didn't just miss the top-250; they missed the next 400 as well.  Holmes and Blount may have gone undrafted, but they were included in the top 750, no? 

Of course, to be one of the top thousand prospects coming out of college is still really good, and it's possible that being outside the top-750 doesn't preclude someday playing in the NFL.  But I suspect the NFL-success % declines who aren't perceived as worth a next-400 UDFA contract during the ensuing weeks?

As for Bibbs, I don't think he was likely to emerge as the next Fred Jackson or Arian Foster.

I'm not equating UDFA = camp body.

There's lot's of players that go undrafted that get signed as UDFA's and then either (1) make it to the 53 man roster because they stood out in training camp, or (2) make it to the PS as "developmental" prospects who could graduate to the 53 man roster.

Last year, James Crawford was undrafted and wasn't signed by Green Bay until nearly 2 weeks into training camp, but still made the 53 man roster and is now competing for some serious playing time at ILB.
Also last year, Tyler Lancaster (one of RT's fav's) was signed as an UDFA and was cut/signed to the PS and then was promoted to the 53 man roster when injuries hit the DL. He's another player who is competing for some serious playing time this year.

These examples happen every single year, and especially with GB, which is noted for as one of the teams that gives UDFA's a fair shake in making the team rather than be just a "camp Body".
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: B on June 25, 2019, 05:15:49 PM
Hall of Fame careers  followed not only being an UDFA,  but being cut 4 or more times for guys like Kurt Warner, James Harrison... the point is good front offices work 365 on finding guys that might be able to contribute and improve the team.

Bibbs was let go because the Packers didn't believe he could help the team and had limited upside. They will keep turning over stones and searching - and whether they make it or not they will never just be camp bodies. IMO
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: craig on June 26, 2019, 07:26:45 AM
Bruce, we are totally on the same page here.  UDFA's make teams and become useful and sometimes really good players all the time.  To be a UDFA is NOT to be a "camp body".  I also think they are constantly turning over stones looking for guys who are, or have a chance to become, real NFL prospects. 

The point you may be missing, though, is that sometimes a team does need to sign a "camp body" who isn't a relatively weak NFL prospect, relative to normal UDFA's, just to fill out a position group. 

We've got only 4 RB.  Maybe that's fine; but maybe they think that isn't enough to run all the drills and run a healthy practice while keeping those four guys fresh?  *IF* they think that it's unhealthy for those four guys to have to cover all the RB work in camp, and that they really need to have an extra man or two to share the work, they'll need to sign an extra guy or two.   Even if that guy is basically brought in to be a camp body, more than as a real NFL prospect.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on June 26, 2019, 01:54:57 PM
Jeremy Langford was the Bears 4th round pick in 2017 and has bounced around the NFL a little bit. The Falcons waived him today, is he worth tying up a roster spot to take a look at in training camp? The knock on him has been that he is injury prone. Personally I would wait for another player to come available, but what will the Packers do?
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: craig on June 26, 2019, 03:07:56 PM
By the way, RT said the Packers have 4 RB, so I said they have 4 RB.  The website roster actually lists 5, although one seems more sized like fullback. 

But if an issue is that the existing RB's will get too tuckered out in camp to keep running all the practice plays that ought to have a RB on field, the other two RB/FB guys should probably be more than willing to help out. 
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: dannobanano on June 26, 2019, 03:24:20 PM
By the way, RT said the Packers have 4 RB, so I said they have 4 RB.  The website roster actually lists 5, although one seems more sized like fullback. 

But if an issue is that the existing RB's will get too tuckered out in camp to keep running all the practice plays that ought to have a RB on field, the other two RB/FB guys should probably be more than willing to help out.

Malcolm Johnson may be listed as a RB, but he's basically competing with Danny Vitale for the FB position.
And like Vitale, Johnson isn't really a true FB. He played TE at Miss. St. before being drafted in 2015 by the Browns who saw him as a FB/H-Back hybrid.
The skill-sets of both Vitale and Johnson are very similar, although Vitale actually did function as a FB as part of his role while at Northwester.

Both players abilities can be compared to 49'ers FB Kyle Juszczyk, whom MLF mentor-in-chief, Kyle Shanahan, uses with great effectiveness and has played in the pro bowl.

It looks as if MLF will shine a new light on the FB position.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Johnson_(fullback)
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on July 12, 2019, 08:18:32 AM
This is from Pro Football Network and an individual look at the Packers RB's.

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/green-bay-packers-running-back-depth/


Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: Hands on July 12, 2019, 08:51:04 AM
I've looked at some film, but not a lot, because I wanted to see what Dexter Williams was all about. I'm not crazy, but I think before the end of the year Dexter Williams will be a starter in the backfield. His movement skills are great and he has good balance. He's bigger than most backs but isn't slow. I couldn't figure out who he reminded me of when he ran the ball...it was Terrell Davis from the Broncos. They both have that one-cut and take off ability. They both were effective in the passing game.
You can call me crazy, but there is something about that kid and the offense they plan to run that just goes together.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: dannobanano on July 12, 2019, 09:03:28 AM
I can see that.

But IMO, his posture when he makes his cuts reminds me of Frank Gore.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on July 12, 2019, 12:09:21 PM
More RB stuff.

https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2019/7/12/20690181/packers-2019-roster-predictions-green-bay-goes-lean-at-running-back
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: dannobanano on July 12, 2019, 12:42:09 PM
Interesting take on the position by the writer.

Not sure I agree on not keeping a FB, but it depends on how other things shake out.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: Hands on July 13, 2019, 07:51:45 AM
Interesting take on the position by the writer.

Not sure I agree on not keeping a FB, but it depends on how other things shake out.

I know, it seems the FB/HB will be essential to the new offense. Can't see how they will work it w/o a blocker in the backfield.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on July 13, 2019, 08:07:23 AM
Interesting take on the position by the writer.

Not sure I agree on not keeping a FB, but it depends on how other things shake out.

I know, it seems the FB/HB will be essential to the new offense. Can't see how they will work it w/o a blocker in the backfield.

People use the 49er's as an example and their use of the FB, but I don't believe the Titans or Rams either one carried a FB last season. The Titans had an H-Back on the roster to line up in the backfield, but no true FB. Looking at the Redskins roster and do not see a FB there either.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: craig on July 13, 2019, 08:52:23 AM
Thanks a lot, RT.  That's what I'd thought, too, that I hadn't recalled seeing FB play on most of those teams; but sounds like you've thought and checked that out more thoroughly.   Appreciate the info.     

Obviously each coach will use and choose personnel differently from other coaches within the tree.  But your research does not seem to necessitate the presumption that MLF will use a FB in a lot of the offensive snaps.  If at all.  I'm sure it depends on the specific individuals available; so perhaps many of the other coaches haven't had a talent like Vitale available, and would have kept him and used him heavily if they had, who knows? 
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: RT on July 13, 2019, 09:15:17 AM
Thanks a lot, RT.  That's what I'd thought, too, that I hadn't recalled seeing FB play on most of those teams; but sounds like you've thought and checked that out more thoroughly.   Appreciate the info.     

Obviously each coach will use and choose personnel differently from other coaches within the tree.  But your research does not seem to necessitate the presumption that MLF will use a FB in a lot of the offensive snaps.  If at all.  I'm sure it depends on the specific individuals available; so perhaps many of the other coaches haven't had a talent like Vitale available, and would have kept him and used him heavily if they had, who knows?

I think that should be what it comes down to, talent. A coaching staff should be flexible enough to design a game plan that maximizes the strengths of the most talented 53 players. If Vitale is one of the best 53 he makes it, if not he doesn't and his position title shouldn't matter in the decision making process.

It might be the number one thing that Belichick does that always seems to keep him one step ahead of his competition. He has spoken many times about putting players in position to do the things they do well, rather than asking them to do the things they don't do well. For years teams have been chasing the Patriot way, when all it is keeping his best players and playing to their strengths. Belichick is a chameleon and most others are far to anal and rigid in their thinking.
Title: Re: Position look: RB
Post by: craig on July 13, 2019, 11:44:27 AM
Yes, yes, and yes. 

Go with talent, and figure out how to use to it's max. 

One tangent on Belicheck.  He's not only good at chameleon-ing to his own players strengths.  But he's also good at chamelioning to his opponents. Their run/pass ratio is only slight above league normal; but from one individual game to the next, those can be widely variant.