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General Category => Green Bay Packers News Talk => Topic started by: RT on June 01, 2019, 01:37:18 PM

Title: Position look: CB/S
Post by: RT on June 01, 2019, 01:37:18 PM
This group should have some great competition for the last few roster spots. Several players are being cross-trained to handle playing inside and out. And the end volume of secondary players carried on the 53 has always varied with the CB and Safety population. Is the end number 10-11-12? How many Safeties 4-5-6?

Locks - Jaire Alexander, Kevin King, Josh Jackson, Tramon Williams, Darnell Savage, Adrian Amos

Some may disagree that Williams is a lock, but when looking at the lack of experience in the secondary and Williams being a stabilizing force in that room, it is hard for me to believe he is not a lock to make the 53.

In the Hunt - Tony Brown, Ka'Dar Hollman, Raven Greene

I kind of expect all 3 of these players to be on the 53, just not in that lock category for me.

Unknown - Josh Jones

Jones is a roster lock if he shows up and if the Packers don't trade him. I have no idea how this plays out, but am hoping he shows up and is part of this 2019 Packers team. The Packers would be a better team with him on the 53.

Longshots -  Nydair Rouse, Javien Hamilton, Kabion Ento, Will Redmond, Chandon Sullivan, Mike Tyson, Natrell Jamerson, Tray Matthews

I do expect a couple of players to come out of this group and make the 53, I have no guess to make at this moment as to who they are, only that roster spots are there to be won.

For me the number of true safeties kept will be interesting. In years past they have kept as many as 6, but I would not be surprised if they only kept 4 this season with several CB's having the ability to slide inside on passing downs.
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: B on June 01, 2019, 09:31:26 PM
I'm excited about the possibilities here. Jaire was the highest rated rookie corner, and  is an outstanding young talent. Kevin King, when healthy can be dominant. If those guys are healthy, the Packers are going to have a hell of a tandem. Throw in Josh Jackson, a play-making corner who I expect to make a BIG2nd season leap. Especially if as expected the Packers are generating pressure inside and out.

I love Tramon, but I think it's premature to call him a lock. Brown and Holman are young, hungry talents. I'll  comment on safety in a seperate post later.
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: RT on June 02, 2019, 06:37:36 AM
I'm excited about the possibilities here. Jaire was the highest rated rookie corner, and  is an outstanding young talent. Kevin King, when healthy can be dominant. If those guys are healthy, the Packers are going to have a hell of a tandem. Throw in Josh Jackson, a play-making corner who I expect to make a BIG2nd season leap. Especially if as expected the Packers are generating pressure inside and out.

I love Tramon, but I think it's premature to call him a lock. Brown and Holman are young, hungry talents. I'll  comment on safety in a seperate post later.

When it comes to Tramon I am just projecting what I think that Pettine thinks. Could they roll with a CB room of basically all 1st and 2nd year players? Possible I guess, but doubtful to me. His leadership and the lack of game experience by everyone else, IMO make him a lock to Pettine.

CB's and game experience.

Williams 183
Alexander 13
King 15
Jackson 16
Brown 11
Sullivan 5
Redmon 5
Hollman 0
Ento 0
Hamilton 0
Rouse 0

Just believe Pettine values him as a veteran leader regardless of his on the field skills.
 
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: Hands on June 02, 2019, 10:57:27 AM
I hate making comments that I haven't vetted, but here goes anyway....Tramon will almost be a lock on this team. He can play Safety if need be, but his steady presence as an experienced CB is very valuable to the Pack when you consider their injury history.
If everyone is healthy, then Alexander and King should be tough guys to get around. Add in Tramon, Brown and Jackson as backups and the whole DB corp will get solid grades.

The one guy I love is Sullivan. He came from a small school, but had some real talent. His coverage was rated very high by many scouts and just needs more seasoning. I hope he make the 53 but if not hope they can hide him on the PS while he does learn the pro game.   
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: RT on June 03, 2019, 06:58:47 AM

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I think it's possible Darnell Savage and Josh Jackson could eventually give the Packers versatility at slot CB and FS. Savage was great in the slot at Maryland. Jackson definitely has FS skills. Could be a deceptive wrinkle for Pettine if there's interchangeability there.
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: dannobanano on June 03, 2019, 07:50:40 AM

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I think it's possible Darnell Savage and Josh Jackson could eventually give the Packers versatility at slot CB and FS. Savage was great in the slot at Maryland. Jackson definitely has FS skills. Could be a deceptive wrinkle for Pettine if there's interchangeability there.
Good catch RT.

Just expanding on your post.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/03/darnell-savage-josh-jackson-could-unlock-full-potential-of-packers-secondary/
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: craig on June 03, 2019, 08:03:12 AM
Agree, this will be an interesting group. 

It could be the strongest/best, if the big four (Jaire+King, Amos+Savage) stay healthy and play great.  Those are four young, highly talented, and high investment-cost players.  There's a chance we'll love our secondary, that they'll make a ton of stops and possession-changes, whether by the occasional turnover, by PBU, and in other cases simply by covering well, and forcing QB's to extend and do things unproductive (coverage sack, throw out of bounds, throw underneath short of the sticks, scramble unsuccessfully, etc..). 

Lots of other Q's: 
1.  Jackson: Will he 2nd-year-leap, and emerge as a solid, capable NFL player in some capacity?  If so, what kind of usage will he get?  Boundary?  Slot corner?  Something more safety-esque? 
2.  Tramon?  Will age and decline be more marked, or will he still be pretty functional?
3.  Jones?  Will he be here?  If so, will he show improvement?  Will he be trusted?  How will he actually be used, between the traditional safety/coverage function versus the ILB-esque role? 
4.  It's mostly nickel-and-dime:  Who will get most of the nickle and dime snaps, after the big four?  Will they pretty much come between the above 3 Jackson-Tramon-Jones?  Or will some back-end guys crack even a healthy rotation? 
5.  Whether it's those three or others, will they be harmless and solid, maybe even good?  We know every defense attacks the weakest link; will the nickel and dime guys get gashed to death, or play very well and make a lot of stops? 
6.  Greene:  He looks like a specimen.  Will he emerge as a solid guy who can play, so that we don't notice him unfavorably?  Many UDFA guys show something and raise hopes, but never really have the full package; something is usually short in diagnostics even if not athleticism.  Will he emerge as a solid rotation-package guy on a winning NFL defense, or never quite reach that status? 
*RT has him perhaps more appropriately grouped with the hunters, but I think I'm viewing him more in the middle group, along with Jackson-Tramon-Jones (+Green)?  As a roster lock who might possibly get significant dime snaps even without injury.... 
7.  ILB:  How much will secondary guys be playing snaps in the ILB-esque role?  Rare, or tons? 
*If so, does it need to involve Jones-esque size? 
*Or will smaller guys like Greene or Jackson, or Amos himself, be up there? 
8.  AFter the big 4 and middle 4, will guys from the hunters/longshots pool emerge as rising, NFL-legit prospects who will grow into rotation usage in future?  Brown seems to have some NFL talent, but I'm not sure whether the old chip inside his head isn't too often set to overload!  Can he limit his stupid/awful penalties and avoid big errors enough to earn trust and snaps?  Hollman, might he emerge as a guy who's just a really good, fast, natural cover guy and isn't outmatched by NFL receivers?  Anybody from the longshots? 

RT, it almost seems like on paper there's a some 10 man definition:  the big 4, middle 4, then Brown + Hollman.  Seems a relatively shallow group on the back end, just volume-wise.  For cats like Greene, Brown, and Hollman to have such a direct road to roster seems somewhat unusual?  Or is it always that easy?   

National Injury League.   Probably at least one of the expected-10 will be injured before the opener, so at least one longshot seems probable to make it by necessity.  Given camp norms, it seems pretty likely that at least one of the longshots will show enough possibilities to make it as 11th man even if none of the expected 10 are injured: it seems to happen every year.  (Even if for every Tramon or Shields, there are 20 of the Dorleant-Donatello-Evans-types who make a roster and stir hope, but never actually develop into guys who are good rotation regulars.) 
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: B on June 03, 2019, 10:14:39 AM
Tony Brown is loaded with potential. He is another player who may make a significant 2nd year leap.

Here is part of an advanced scouting report after coming out of Alabama:

A magnetic player who draws the attention of positive and negative publicity but an extremely talented skillset, featuring speed, athleticism and toughness. Possesses keen instincts and strong ball awareness; tracks and locates the ball well. Shows fluid change of direction, squares up and tackles like a linebacker—big hitter. In addition to being the fastest member on the Crimson Tide, he’s also known to be one of the funniest and is credited with raising the team’s energy level. Registered eight special teams tackles in 2015 on punt and kick coverages. Was suspended four games by the NCAA for his helmet-to-helmet hit on Clemson wide receiver Mike Williams (Chargers) in 2016 and reportedly failed a drug test leading up to the playoff game against Michigan State. An Olympic-level hurdler, Brown recently recorded the fourth-fastest 60-meter hurdle time in the university’s history and has been timed in the mid-4.3 range. Both of his parents were student-athletes at Texas Tech. Has started at safety when Eddie Jackson went down to injury, has also started at slot corner but is talented enough to play outside and projects as a solid starting number two cornerback at the next level.
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: dannobanano on June 03, 2019, 11:51:58 AM
Agree B!

Brown showed potential last year. What he suffered from was lack of focus and poor decision making. If the coaches can clean that part of his game up, he makes for a possible solid #4. He's got terrific size at 6-0/200#'s.

Would be a big plus for the secondary to see him make solid improvements.

ps........
Prime Time liked him at the NFL Combine.

https://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/story/sports/college/alabama/2018/03/05/alaama-defensive-back-tony-brown-impresses-hall-famer-deion-sanders-nfl-combine/396968002/

Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: dannobanano on June 07, 2019, 12:45:49 PM
Well, here's more evidence that Adrian Amos may have been one of the best FA signings/bargains this off season.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/07/packers-adrian-amos-ranked-among-nfls-best-11-safeties/


[The Green Bay Packers added one of the more highly regarded safeties in the NFL during free agency.
Doug Farrar of Touchdown Wire recently ranked the NFL’s best 11 safeties, and Adrian Amos – who signed a four-year deal with the Packers in March – cracked the list.

Just barely. Amos came in at No. 11.
Farrar believes Amos will give the Packers a versatile and reliable safety for the backend of Mike Pettine’s defense.
“Amos also showed the ability to blitz off the edge and contest against the run, but it’s as a single-high and two-deep safety that he’ll likely make his bones in Titletown,” Farrar wrote. “An assignment-correct player with impressive field range and closing ability, Amos has the potential to become one of the league’s best deep safeties. He’ll certainly have the opportunity in his new home.”
The Packers desperately needed to add a quality player at safety this offseason. The starting duo of Ha Ha Clinton-Dix and Kentrell Brice wasn’t good enough for much of last year, and now both are gone.

Amos and rookie Darnell Savage could give Pettine an interchangeable set of safeties, even if Amos is more of a traditional strong safety.
“If you had to say, Adrian would probably lean towards being a strong safety, and Darnell obviously leaning towards free safety,” Pettine said last month. “But they’re interchangeable. … You want them to major in what they’re best at, but I think both of them can do it all.”
Just for reference’s sake: Clinton-Dix, who signed with the Bears, did not make the list.]
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: dannobanano on June 10, 2019, 06:31:08 PM
I found this article to be highly entertaining!!
ROFLMAO!!

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/10/bears-believe-ha-ha-clinton-dix-was-a-better-player-than-adrian-amos/
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: RT on June 11, 2019, 12:54:51 PM
DC Mike Pettine says rookie CB Ka'Dar Hollman is still learning, but has impressed with his press-man ability: "There's been times when he's had practices where you had to go back and see if a ball even got caught on him."

More Pettine on Hollman, who has been mostly running with 1s and 2s: "He's been up against some of our better guys and more than held his own. It's not like he's been kicking butt in the JV game and feeling good about it."
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: craig on June 11, 2019, 02:17:21 PM
Thanks, RT, that's pretty neat.  Certainly his job to lose, given how wide open that back several spots are in the WR room. 
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: RT on June 11, 2019, 03:17:46 PM
This is one of the really fun things to me craig. Every year a few of the late round picks or UDFA's seem to come out of nowhere and surprise, last year MVS seemed like the most unlikely of the 3rd day WR's to emerge from the group, but he did. The early reviews on Hollman are good, yet we have heard nothing from the other 3rd day picks so far. When the pads go on things could change quickly.
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: dannobanano on June 11, 2019, 05:45:24 PM
Seriously, I've been critical of Trevor for quite a while, and have said that I thought he had no chance to make this squad.

But if he has turned a corner, I am all for it.

After last year, maybe he took a looooooong look in the mirror and made a decision to change his approach.

You can't teach speed, and he has speed to burn.

Good for Trevor, so far. I wish him all the best and hope this continues into training camp.
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: craig on June 11, 2019, 07:55:42 PM
I errantly typed "WR" when I meant secondary; Hollman has seemingly a pretty thin competition at the back of the cornerback crowd. 

But as for Davis, what was wrong with his approach?  Are you talking something attitudinal, like lazy or cocky or something?  Or technique-wise? 
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: B on June 12, 2019, 03:33:23 AM
Interesting assesment :o craig. Holman, who has outstanding athletic ability, has impressed in shorts - which is noteworthy good news. However, I totally disagree with your assertion that there is pretty thin competition at the back of the cornerback crowd. 


Tony Brown, who played in 11 games last season as a rookie out of Alabama, has equally impressive athleticism.

Will Redmon was an early 2016 3rd round pic (No. 68 overall) is finally healthy after starting his career with a serious knee injury.

Natrell Jamerson, fifth round (2018 No. 164 overall)  out of the University of Wisconsin played in 10 games as a rookie.

Chandon Sullivan spent his rookie season on the Eagles’ practice squad and active roster, appearing in five games with one start. Sullivan recorded 11 tackles (seven solo) and a pass defensed.

IMO that is a pretty deep and talented back end of a position headed up by Alexander, King, Jackson  and Williams, and that is without even considering any of this year's undrafted free agent possibilities
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on June 12, 2019, 06:14:07 AM
Trying to get a bead on the final 53 is very difficult this early in the process. A week or two of training camp and a published depth chart would help to clarify things. I'll try it anyway.

To try and get a handle on the makeup of the CB/S numbers, I'm projecting this year will be a 25/25 split (ie 25 on offense, 25 on defense), plus 3 on ST to make up the 53. They might go an extra guy on either offense or defense for a more unbalanced look, but it's unlikely to be more than a 26/24 split.

So, 25 on defense. It would be reasonable to suppose that there would be about 11 guys between DL and Edge. I'd guess at Clark, Daniels, Lowry, M.Adams, Lancaster, Keke, Z.Smith, P.Smith, Fackrell, Gary, + one other. (Total 11).

At ILB, maybe Martinez, Burks, Crawford, Summers. (Total 4).

That leaves 10 for CB/S. I had Amos/Savage/Greene/J.Jones as the four safeties. The six CBs were King, Alexander, J.Jackson, T.Williams, T.Brown, K.Hollman. There is always some potential crossover between S and CB, but at this early stage it looks like a possible roster.

Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: B on June 12, 2019, 06:24:21 AM
I agree 1265, my point was that there is some pretty high quality athleticism, talent and competition at the back end of the cornerback position.
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on June 12, 2019, 07:40:24 AM
I agree 1265, my point was that there is some pretty high quality athleticism, talent and competition at the back end of the cornerback position.

No argument from me there. All that investiture in the backfield over many years (and in fact, in the defense in general), coupled with the team commitment to high RAS players everywhere, aided by a high-quality DC, means I am much more enthusiastic about their prospect of them being a top quality defense for the next several years. Even if T.Williams is right at the very end of his career, most of the CB/S room is young talent. I'm pretty happy with what the Packers have there, at this time.
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: RT on June 12, 2019, 11:42:36 AM
Hopefully not the kiss of death.


Zach Heilprin


WR Davante Adams likes rookie safety Darnell Savage:

"He’s going to be that guy. I can tell. We got a steal."
Title: Re: Position look: CB/S
Post by: craig on June 12, 2019, 10:32:06 PM
B, I think there may be several spots available between that crowd.  So, I'd think even if some of those other guys do well, our own 6th rounder has the job to lose.  Particularly if the coordinator is talking up his coverage skills. 

I admit I have a ton of respect for NFL management teams, others as well as our own.  I also know released guys often get 2nd chances and sometimes make it back into the league.