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General Category => Rant and Vent => Topic started by: Premontre1969 on May 29, 2020, 05:56:22 PM

Title: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Premontre1969 on May 29, 2020, 05:56:22 PM
 I hate to see anyone take advantage of their position on the field to make a personal protest during the National Anthem. This is a time we respect our flag and what it represents; our constitution, freedom and justice for all. Many have given their lives to uphold the honor of our flag.

 That’s not to diminish the righteous cause of calling attention to police brutality against the black community. What just happened in Minneapolis underscores the focus that begs to be brought on this societal issue.

When we see a video of a policeman killing a man by pinning him with a knee to the neck we know that reflects a much more pervasive reality. Policemen have extraordinary power to enforce the law. While I believe that the vast majority of police are judicious and careful in exercising that power it is human nature that this power has great potential for abuse. Only through careful selection of officers and a high degree of recurrent training can we manage our police force in the appropriate use of those extraordinary powers.
 
We’ve all experienced or witnessed racial prejudice. In every walk of life we’ve experienced people with tender egos who don’t react well to a challenge. When those people become police officers there is an increased potential for abuse of power. We must demand well managed police departments with robust selection, training and supervision to assure and refine a pure attitude to protect and serve the public.

 But are we so powerless to move a righteous issue that we, effectively, cheap shot our constitution? Let me hear players address this issue in their press conference, interviews or on a radio show. They have ample opportunities to advance and highlight the issue and I hope that they do. But please do not belittle the moment we honor the very thing that stands for our guiding principles.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on May 29, 2020, 11:12:23 PM
So, a police officer kneeling on someone's neck for almost nine minutes, killing him, is worse than taking a knee during the anthem to protest actions like these?
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Premontre1969 on May 30, 2020, 03:40:34 AM
Ricky,
Of course it is worse. But rather than a glib comment or deed what can we do to ensure better police management? We’ve not heard much constructive comentary coming from the NFL. Honoring the flag affirms our support for our constitution, for equal rights and justice. Protesting at that moment, seems to me counter productive to a righteous cause.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on May 30, 2020, 09:43:11 AM
Ricky,
Of course it is worse. But rather than a glib comment or deed what can we do to ensure better police management? We’ve not heard much constructive comentary coming from the NFL. Honoring the flag affirms our support for our constitution, for equal rights and justice. Protesting at that moment, seems to me counter productive to a righteous cause.

Where to start? Why conflate these two issues? To muddy the waters and change the discussion to a different topic, rather than confront a very sensitive and deep seated problem that makes people very uncomfortable. Several high profile NFL players have weighed in on this issue, including J.J. Watt, Derrick Carr and even the untested but highly touted Joe Burrow. Mike Florio, a lawyer, is flat out calling this behavior murder. So, why bring up the protests during the anthems- which is what they were. There was NOBODY protesting the anthem, the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. That was nonsense meant to distract and confuse people, and get them talking about a non-issue (IMO). Rather than focusing on the point of the protest, which was to point out the racial disparity in treatment of individuals with (allegedly) equal rights by the police, the issue became "disrespecting the anthem and spitting on the flag and hating America". Are things getting better or worse? People calling police because: a black kid is cutting someone's lawn in white neighborhood; a black kid is selling bottles of water 'without a permit'; an eight year old black kid allegedly touched a (white) woman inappropriately in a mini-mart, but it turned out (seen on surveillance video) that his back back brushed her buttocks accidentally while he walked past her with his mom; the swimming pool party fiasco in McKinney, Texas, where police were called to a swimming pool party in a upper class white neighborhood, and police pulled guns on unarmed teens who wearing swimsuits; the numerous shootings caught on video, which are all too common. Not to mention the little boy playing in a park with a toy gun, shot down within seconds of a police car pulling up within feet of him.
This is the issue we should be addressing- not roiling the waters with complaints about how someone protests police misconduct. This is becoming all too common- next, there will be those who challenge me with "Well, the next time you feel threatened, call Colin Kaepernick to help." Which totally misses the point. This isn't about hating police officers- this is about police officers flagrantly and illegally mistreating and killing the people they're supposed to protect. And these people are overwhelmingly non-white.
Also, please don't bring up the Michael Brown case in Ferguson, Missouri. After a thorough investigation, the officer in that case acted to protect his life. However, the police department of Ferguson was determined to have spent and inordinate amount of time and effort fining minorities for extremely minor violations, with the threat of jail time if they didn't pay. A systemic extra tax for not being white.
What can be done? Nothing, as long as people want to ignore the problem and complain about peripheral issues. Because that is much preferable than trying to delve into one's true feelings about race, rather than simply repeating, "I'm not racist" while our actions and lack of actions make these outrages possible.

Another player has added his outrage over this latest incident. Not that it will matter. Because this is a problem with human nature.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/05/30/andy-dalton-decries-inexcusable-and-horrific-treatment-of-george-floyd-and-others/
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on May 30, 2020, 10:13:36 AM
So, a police officer kneeling on someone's neck for almost nine minutes, killing him, is worse than taking a knee during the anthem to protest actions like these?

The County autopsy revealed that George Floyd didnt die as a direct result of the kneeing.   He didn't die from asfixiation (spell) or damage to his trachea.   He died from underlying conditions. (heart issues, diabetes and possible intoxication.)     It doesn't mean the kneeing wasn't a contributing factor, but it wasn't the major factor on why he died.  what people don't know is there were three officers kneeing on him.  one at the neck, one on his back and one on his legs to restrain him.  You cant see the other 2 because of the vehicle.  It will be interesting to see what he did to require that type of restraint.

It doesnt mean the officers are free and clear.  He/They will still likely go through the court process for several severe charges (third degree murder, civil rights violations...)     

The family is having another autopsy done.   

Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: scoremore on May 30, 2020, 11:03:54 AM
Might have been other health factors that contributed to his death.  Regardless this was straight up murder as far as I am concerned.  As far as protest they are justified.  Black or White we are all shocked and outraged by this. That is a far cry from looting and burning down the city.  Antifa is the group that is agitating the situation.  They should be called out but guess that's politically incorrect.  Radical anarchists.  When the mayor tells the police to stand down and let riots and looting go unchecked is also a problem.  Just encourages more.  The poor people of the community are the ones who suffer the most.  Horrible situation and the last thing this country needs right now.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: RT on May 30, 2020, 11:27:13 AM
The masses continued to get played. Covid-19 is running out of steam so back to the old reliable racism card, it works every time.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/leaders-say-riot-damage-not-caused-by-minnesotans/ar-BB14Omod?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on May 30, 2020, 12:30:46 PM
So, a police officer kneeling on someone's neck for almost nine minutes, killing him, is worse than taking a knee during the anthem to protest actions like these?

The County autopsy revealed that George Floyd dint die as a direct result of the kneeing.   He didn't die from asfixiation (spell) or damage to his trachea.   He died from underlying conditions. (heart issues, and possible intoxication.)     It doesn't mean the kneeing wasn't a contributing factor, but it wasn't the major factor on why he died.  what people don't know is there were three officers kneeing on him.  on at the neck, one on his back and one on his legs to restrain him.  You cant see the other 2 because of the vehicle.

It doesnt mean the officers are free and clear.  He/They will still likely go through the court process for several severe charges on many levels.

First, thanks for not taking the original bait and switch of protests during the anthem. I'm aware of the multiple officers kneeling on Floyd, and the report by the coroner. Here is the article:

https://www.mystateline.com/news/national/medical-examiner-no-evidence-george-floyd-died-of-strangulation/

The family is going to bring in an outside expert to do a second autopsy, because they don't trust the local coroner, which seems apt, since he felt it necessary to cast doubt by adding in "and any potential intoxicants in his system", apparently pre-judging the toxicology report:

https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/ex-nyc-medical-examiner-to-perform-autopsy-on-george-floyd/

I also saw that there were other officers kneeling on Floyd. Which raises a very simple question: why were they all kneeling on him? There was no apparent reason for this; why not just put him in the back of a patrol car, buckle him in and wait? And why kneel on his neck for almost nine minutes, three of which he was apparently unconscious? Don't you find all this perhaps a bit- excessive? And the guy was repeatedly saying he couldn't breathe; bystanders were also concerned about his health. The police officers were more interested in "crowd control" than Floyd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMGUAHBFmjk

This was a deadly abuse of power. To say he would have died anyway of something else is true. But the situation greatly contributed to his death. So, a police officer kneels on someone's neck for almost nine minutes, but the person had underlying health issues. That doesn't make the action any more defensible or understandable or legitimize that behavior. Apparently, part of the training of this officer was that prolonged behavior like his was likely to cause problems, and shouldn't be used in restraining a suspect. This is part of the problem- that non-white suspects are routinely treated very differently than white suspects. Here is a study on this issue:

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/police-officer-shootings-gun-violence-racial-bias-crime-data/595528/

What we need is to recognize this as a problem and address it head on. This won't be easy, since we don't like talking about race since it immediately gets swept up in side issues. Similar to what is being attempted in this thread.





Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on May 30, 2020, 12:37:22 PM
The masses continued to get played. Covid-19 is running out of steam so back to the old reliable racism card, it works every time.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/leaders-say-riot-damage-not-caused-by-minnesotans/ar-BB14Omod?ocid=spartanntp

So, at least 100,000 dead from Covid-19 is "the masses continue[d] to get  played"? How so? And "back to the old reliable racism card" is a very loaded statement, IMO. So, please explain both these statements further. I have my own opinions of these comments, and even went back and deleted some rather inflammatory rhetoric, but I'll keep those to myself and give you a chance to expand on these statements before commenting further.

Upon further review, the article you linked to posits that most of the protesters aren't from Minneapolis. No evidence offered, just another baseless charge of "outside agitators", something that was very common back in the mid-60's, when the nation experienced those "long, hot summers" of rioting across the nation for several years. But, exactly how is this a "race card"? This is just another attempt to distract from the problem- that non-whites are treated far differently, and usually much more harshly by police. Why is that? How can it be ended? How do we go about solving problems, rather than ignoring them or denying any problem exists?

Just found this at CheeseheadTV. Thoughtful, insightful and intelligent responses to the death of George Floyd. Perhaps we could all learn something from reading and thinking about these comments:

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/packers-players-provide-thought-provoking-responses-to-crisis-in-minneapolis-551
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: RT on May 31, 2020, 09:20:30 AM
https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/09/police-violence-against-black-men-rare-heres-what-data-actually-say/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Lemoine
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on May 31, 2020, 12:12:27 PM
https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/09/police-violence-against-black-men-rare-heres-what-data-actually-say/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Lemoine

https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/04/16/000-people-in-the-us-are-killed-every-year-in-police-shootings-how-many-are-preventable/
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: RT on May 31, 2020, 12:42:24 PM
https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/09/police-violence-against-black-men-rare-heres-what-data-actually-say/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Lemoine

https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/04/16/000-people-in-the-us-are-killed-every-year-in-police-shootings-how-many-are-preventable/

https://www.dailywire.com/news/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Premontre1969 on May 31, 2020, 04:56:25 PM
I was angered at the police killing of George Floyd and encouraged players to speak out on the issue of police brutality against the black community, rather than protest it during the anthem.

The collective anger of the country has led to many protest gatherings. Antifa and criminals have highjacked these lawful protests to loot and destroy. My heart goes out to our law enforcement officers who are often abused and injured upholding law and order. Patrick Underwood, a federal officer was shot and killed in Oakland. I’m afraid that the name of one black man ‘George Floyd’ will be long remembered while the name of another, ‘Patrick Underwood’ will not matter.

Let’s not give anarchy another opportunity to highjack peaceful protest and disrespect our social contract. I encourage law enforcement to rise above the code of brotherhood and police their own.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on May 31, 2020, 05:57:39 PM
https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/09/police-violence-against-black-men-rare-heres-what-data-actually-say/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Lemoine

https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/04/16/000-people-in-the-us-are-killed-every-year-in-police-shootings-how-many-are-preventable/

https://www.dailywire.com/news/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler

OK, so police kill twice as many blacks as whites. Break that down as a percentage of population. That a lot of these shootings are justified is undeniable. What is also undeniable is that unarmed black men are being killed by police who are overreacting. The race of the officer is irrelevant- these are the people who are supposed to protect us, not oppress us or have us end up dead because you were stopped for a broken taillight; or not having a licence plate on the front and back of your vehicle; or playing with a toy gun in a park, or trying to pass bad currency.
Yet these did occur. As far as your latest attempt to whitewash police behavior, cherry picking cases and pointing out how this was justified in that particular case is interesting, but irrelevant. We have a case where a police officer knelt on the neck of a suspect for almost nine minutes, including three minutes when the suspect was non-responsive. The suspect repeatedly said he couldn't breathe, begged for his life, and the officer continued to kneel on his neck. Trying to obfuscate this with 'sometimes the suspect deserves it' is irrelevant to this case. The suspect was unarmed, handcuffed, there were four police officers there, and they did nothing to defuse the situation or take any care in the treatment of the suspect. Stick with the case at hand, and please don't try to throw out red herrings. Two citations, two strikes.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on May 31, 2020, 06:05:15 PM
I was angered at the police killing of George Floyd and encouraged players to speak out on the issue of police brutality against the black community, rather than protest it during the anthem.

The collective anger of the country has led to many protest gatherings. Antifa and criminals have highjacked these lawful protests to loot and destroy. My heart goes out to our law enforcement officers who are often abused and injured upholding law and order. Patrick Underwood, a federal officer was shot and killed in Oakland. I’m afraid that the name of one black man ‘George Floyd’ will be long remembered while the name of another, ‘Patrick Underwood’ will not matter.

Let’s not give anarchy another opportunity to highjack peaceful protest and disrespect our social contract. I encourage law enforcement to rise above the code of brotherhood and police their own.

Your intentions are good, but you still don't "get it". You blame antifa and criminals (OK, criminals as a group are to be condemned by everyone)
for the riots becoming violent. But where is the proof? As far as the shooting of Patrick Underwood, that is also a tragedy. But at this time, there is no evidence of who did this or why. Can we jump to conclusions? Sure. We should wait and see when a police officer kills an suspect; but if a public servant is killed, then just blaming someone you don't like is acceptable. Here's an article on the shooting:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/05/31/federal-protection-services-officer-killed-in-oakland-drive-by-shooting-identified/

In the meantime, lets take a look at who is inciting this violence, because there is suspicion on both left and right agitators:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/31/us/george-floyd-protests-white-supremacists-antifa.html

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/30/officials-blame-differing-groups-of-outsiders-for-violence-across-u-s/

It would be nice if police officers held each other accountable and worked toward treating all citizens with respect, civility and restraint. As far as criminals go? Go the route that Sean Connery put forth in "The Untouchables". Paraphrasing: "If he wants to fight, use your club; if he pulls a knife, you pull a gun; if he pulls a gun, he's dead."
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: RT on May 31, 2020, 06:12:46 PM
https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/09/police-violence-against-black-men-rare-heres-what-data-actually-say/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Lemoine

https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/04/16/000-people-in-the-us-are-killed-every-year-in-police-shootings-how-many-are-preventable/

https://www.dailywire.com/news/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler

OK, so police kill twice as many blacks as whites. Break that down as a percentage of population. That a lot of these shootings are justified is undeniable. What is also undeniable is that unarmed black men are being killed by police who are overreacting. The race of the officer is irrelevant- these are the people who are supposed to protect us, not oppress us or have us end up dead because you were stopped for a broken taillight; or not having a licence plate on the front and back of your vehicle; or playing with a toy gun in a park, or trying to pass bad currency.
Yet these did occur. As far as your latest attempt to whitewash police behavior, cherry picking cases and pointing out how this was justified in that particular case is interesting, but irrelevant. We have a case where a police officer knelt on the neck of a suspect for almost nine minutes, including three minutes when the suspect was non-responsive. The suspect repeatedly said he couldn't breathe, begged for his life, and the officer continued to kneel on his neck. Trying to obfuscate this with 'sometimes the suspect deserves it' is irrelevant to this case. The suspect was unarmed, handcuffed, there were four police officers there, and they did nothing to defuse the situation or take any care in the treatment of the suspect. Stick with the case at hand, and please don't try to throw out red herrings. Two citations, two strikes.

Well you are consistent, you can't get the facts straight regardless of the topic. I supply real data and you supply the mental masturbation. Thanks for playing.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on May 31, 2020, 06:37:20 PM
Well you are consistent, you can't get the facts straight regardless of the topic. I supply real data and you supply the mental masturbation. Thanks for playing.

So, since I disagree, I'm wrong. As usual, your arrogance and egotism are on display. As far as "facts", in the article you offer from the Daily Wire, the lecturer mentions two shootings that disturbed "the left." Does the lecturer then go on to delve into these shooting to show how they were justified? Nope. Bring up other incidents where the facts are wildly different. If this is what passes for "facts" in your world, I truly pity you.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on May 31, 2020, 09:24:43 PM
Upon further thought, you haven't yet written a word about the death of George Floyd. You wrote that Covid was getting stale, so the media now turned to the race card. You offered links to articles which said blacks aren't being killed by police at an unusual rate. You linked to a different article which effectively argued the same thing. But the incident itself? Crickets. So, how about a straightforward statement on the death of George Floyd? Not a general denial of anything wrong, but your perception of what occurred. If you need to refresh your memory, there are lots of links online. 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Hands on June 01, 2020, 07:00:35 AM
It's offseason and these riots are real and are across the country so maybe we need the distraction. I've known so many policemen and women that have been working many years in that capacity. I could never do it. Too much politics in regards to who and how to arrest someone. They walk a fine line everyday and pray they never make a mistake like they did with Floyd. The politicians can't look bad to the voters so if they make a mistake...you are on your own.
After saying all of that, there are a lot of racism/dirty cops in every force, except for Mayberry, NC.  Putting politics aside if possible, the same goes for the FBI. If the Russian collusion and Gen Flynn hoaxes has shown it's not just the police force. So we have murderers and then riots because of the police, and independent prosecutor for the FBI.
Maybe the solution is the 50% rule. That is if you are in law enforcement and are found guilty of lying to Congress, killing a suspect, stealing, etc. that you have 50% increase of your punishment at sentencing. If you get 10 years for planting evidence, you would get 5 extra years added to your sentence. Maybe if anyone had the nads...make it also for all politicians.
Too often the American people have seen two different justice systems. Maybe it's time to change that.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 01, 2020, 08:33:54 AM
The death of Floyd was unfortunate and the cops involved need to be prosecuted according to the the law.

Im dont mind the peaceful protests at all, but the looting , burning, stealing and destroying of property isnt doing the black community any good and only enhances the stereotypes that comes with it.  Its not all black people, there are white and asian thugs in there too.

At the end of the day,  there should be steps taken for the African American in regards to better police treatment, but the stamp of these thugs committing rioting destruction will do far more harm than good.

People wont remember the protests, they'll remember the broken windows, fires,  and people walking out of stores with shoes, clothes and TVs without a second thought of morals or values. 

Its not a good look.

I dont think Americans are going to lend a sympathetic ear to this, some will, but the peaceful protests took a step forward, and the violence and destruction took four steps back.  JMO     
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 01, 2020, 09:06:15 AM
The death of Floyd was unfortunate and the cops involved need to be prosecuted according to the the law.

Im dont mind the peaceful protests at all, but the looting , burning, stealing and destroying of property isnt doing the black community any good and only enhances the stereotypes that comes with it.  Its not all black people, there are white and asian thugs in there too.

At the end of the day,  there should be steps taken for the African American in regards to better police treatment, but the stamp of these thugs committing rioting destruction will do far more harm than good.

People wont remember the protests, they'll remember the broken windows, fires,  and people walking out of stores with shoes, clothes and TVs without a second thought of morals or values. 

Its not a good look.

I dont think Americans are going to lend a sympathetic ear to this, some will, but the peaceful protests took a step forward, and the violence and destruction took four steps back.  JMO   

Good post. The question becomes, how many people are actually involved in the looting/burning? After all, the media, like a moth, is attracted to light/fires. Watch the news, and almost every night there is a brief story that contains a raging fire, an explosion or some sort of crash. It has optics that catch the eye, similar to the "Fast and Furious" franchise, or any Michael Bay film. There needs to be an investigation of who the looters are, and where they came from, and whether this is a coordinated effort or just a small group of locals.

Hands, bringing up peripheral issues and calling them "hoaxes" simply isn't true. I'll stop there, not agreeing to disagree, but suggesting you look into these issues outside of right wing publications, and get a different perspective. Try "Real Clear Politics" for a lot of conservative content, but some liberal viewpoints also. And look at all of them with skepticism, and examine them as if someone is trying to sell you a used car which was only driven by a little old lady from Pasadena on Sundays.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 01, 2020, 09:53:22 AM
The death of Floyd was unfortunate and the cops involved need to be prosecuted according to the the law.

Im dont mind the peaceful protests at all, but the looting , burning, stealing and destroying of property isnt doing the black community any good and only enhances the stereotypes that comes with it.  Its not all black people, there are white and asian thugs in there too.

At the end of the day,  there should be steps taken for the African American in regards to better police treatment, but the stamp of these thugs committing rioting destruction will do far more harm than good.

People wont remember the protests, they'll remember the broken windows, fires,  and people walking out of stores with shoes, clothes and TVs without a second thought of morals or values. 

Its not a good look.

I dont think Americans are going to lend a sympathetic ear to this, some will, but the peaceful protests took a step forward, and the violence and destruction took four steps back.  JMO   

Good post. The question becomes, how many people are actually involved in the looting/burning? After all, the media, like a moth, is attracted to light/fires. Watch the news, and almost every night there is a brief story that contains a raging fire, an explosion or some sort of crash. It has optics that catch the eye, similar to the "Fast and Furious" franchise, or any Michael Bay film. There needs to be an investigation of who the looters are, and where they came from, and whether this is a coordinated effort or just a small group of locals.


I don't think this is a small group of looters, there may be some organization behind the destruction and fires, but the looting is being done by males, females, families, throughout the country.  IMO its a culture thing. 

At what point do you say, that's not right, 'm not going into that store and steal.   Meanwhile hundreds of people are stepping over broken glass and frames loading up shopping carts and heading to their cars.   

That's not a few locals, its a culture. 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 01, 2020, 10:11:48 AM
I don't think this is a small group of looters, there may be some organization behind the destruction and fires, but the looting is being done by males, females, families, throughout the country.  IMO its a culture thing. 

At what point do you say, that's not right, 'm not going into that store and steal.   Meanwhile hundreds of people are stepping over broken glass and frames loading up shopping carts and heading to their cars.   

That's not a few locals, its a culture.

Before responding, a bit more clarification is needed. What is the "culture" you blame for the looting? Please be specific, and feel free to expand on the "culture" you're describing.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 01, 2020, 10:45:29 AM
I don't think this is a small group of looters, there may be some organization behind the destruction and fires, but the looting is being done by males, females, families, throughout the country.  IMO its a culture thing. 

At what point do you say, that's not right, 'm not going into that store and steal.   Meanwhile hundreds of people are stepping over broken glass and frames loading up shopping carts and heading to their cars.   

That's not a few locals, its a culture.

Before responding, a bit more clarification is needed. What is the "culture" you blame for the looting? Please be specific, and feel free to expand on the "culture" you're describing.

The whole crime is cool, gangster life is great,  rap music talking about killing cops, culture  Its not all black people,   but as I mentioned, at what point does breaking down a store door and hundreds of people carrying out merchandise, and some just watching people do this.  Not just in one city but DOZENS across the country.   

Im talking about the looting which is separate from the protest.

Where are the values of the people committing these arson and looting crimes while complaining about police presence in their communities?






 



 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 01, 2020, 04:32:09 PM
I don't think this is a small group of looters, there may be some organization behind the destruction and fires, but the looting is being done by males, females, families, throughout the country.  IMO its a culture thing. 

At what point do you say, that's not right, 'm not going into that store and steal.   Meanwhile hundreds of people are stepping over broken glass and frames loading up shopping carts and heading to their cars.   

That's not a few locals, its a culture.

Before responding, a bit more clarification is needed. What is the "culture" you blame for the looting? Please be specific, and feel free to expand on the "culture" you're describing.

The whole crime is cool, gangster life is great,  rap music talking about killing cops, culture  Its not all black people,   but as I mentioned, at what point does breaking down a store door and hundreds of people carrying out merchandise, and some just watching people do this.  Not just in one city but DOZENS across the country.   

Im talking about the looting which is separate from the protest.

Where are the values of the people committing these arson and looting crimes while complaining about police presence in their communities?

Thank you for seeing that the looters/destroyers are separate from the people that are trying to protest peacefully. These are the outliers, not the majority by any means. This is wrong, no doubt about it. However, when peaceful protests are met with police violence, things can change quickly. And that is happening. Look around, read about some of the reactions by police to people who simply want to vent frustration and anger. When the protests against the Covid restrictions occurred, and heavily armed men wearing body armor were confronting police, there was no violence toward these people; no tear gas, no demands they clear the streets, no reaction to provocations. Instead, these people were allowed to vent their anger, though they were obviously trying to intimidate the people in charge. The looting/burning occurred after the police overreacted. Should it have happened? No, it was wrong and is being by many people, including the brother of George Floyd.

On another note, two autopsies of George Floyd. Both found the police officer as a major factor in the death. The county coroner also claimed to have found underlying health issues that contributed to his death; a new autopsy disputes that. Either way, the police officer should not have been kneeling on the guy's neck for almost nine minutes.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/george-floyd-death-homicide-family-independent-autopsy-finds/

A final thought. What can we do to make this situation better? How can we make this a better country for everyone? How can we make the words of the Pledge of Allegiance, of "liberty and justice for all" a reality?



Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: scoremore on June 02, 2020, 09:39:22 AM
Sorry Ricky you got it wrong.  Riots and looting were going to occur no matter what the police did.  That's what they do wait for a moment of weakness and strike.  Minneapolis tried the passive approach and made the situation much much worse.  Just emboldens them. Don't blame it on the cops.  Put the blame on the Mayor's and Governors who allowed their cities to burn.  See NYC as a perfect example. Weakness invites more not less looting and rioting.  As far as the movement the criminals completely lost me as far as the movement goes.  You can see what happens when things go unchecked.  The inner cities need more law enforcement not less.  Without law and order you can't have peace and prosperity.    Cops lives matter too.  I am beyond pissed at this situation.  This is no longer about George Floyd.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 02, 2020, 10:04:10 AM
Sorry Ricky you got it wrong.  Riots and looting were going to occur no matter what the police did.  That's what they do wait for a moment of weakness and strike.  Minneapolis tried the passive approach and made the situation much much worse.  Just emboldens them. Don't blame it on the cops.  Put the blame on the Mayor's and Governors who allowed their cities to burn.  See NYC as a perfect example. Weakness invites more not less looting and rioting.  As far as the movement the criminals completely lost me as far as the movement goes.  You can see what happens when things go unchecked.  The inner cities need more law enforcement not less.  Without law and order you can't have peace and prosperity.    Cops lives matter too.  I am beyond pissed at this situation.  This is no longer about George Floyd.

"I am beyond pissed at this situation." Congratulations- you now understand how "they" those "inner city" dwellers (and why is it that there is so much segregation in this society?) feel about the constant harassment of police. Being treated like second class citizens, routinely being harassed and humiliated by the police. Look at the areas where police actually talked with demonstrators, dealt with them like they were actually equal, and treated them with respect, and indicated they, too were not happy with the death of George Floyd. There were protests, but no looting. So, the idea is to "dominate" these protesters; to put them in their place; to let them know who is boss. And when this situation dies down, make sure you get much harsher and more brutal in your tactics to stop these people. The beatings will continue until morale improves; or until "they" understand who is in charge.

Perhaps we should reflect as a society- why do these things occur? Why does a segment of our society feel so alienated? Why is it that the only time we discuss these issues is when blacks decide that 'enough is enough', and that "I am beyond pissed at this situation", and resort to violence to fight back? And the response should be more violence? More oppression? And I reject completely the idea put forth by GM, that this is somehow part of black culture. Not plainly stated, but there nonetheless. And what do the protesters have to say about the looters?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/31/george-floyd-protesters-condemn-opportunistic-looting-violence

Let's not let the action of a few distract from the larger issues. And yes, it is a small percentage who are getting an outsized amount of attention.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: scoremore on June 02, 2020, 11:11:25 AM
Well because these liberal progressive mayors abandoned the inner city.  How many people get shot in Chicago every year?  It's also a two way street.  Why is it that cops racial profile?  I mean let's address the elephant in the room here.  You know as well as I do but don't want to say it. It's unfortunate but it is what it is.  Have you ever lived in a major metropolitan city?  Try driving into the inner city and see how you are treated and see how safe you feel.   Turn on the TV and watch all the looting going on.  What race are the people doing all the looting?  Black leaders have failed.  They are more interested in fanning the flames of racism to enrich themselves then actually making a difference in their communities.  I was sympathetic to the movement at first but no longer. 

That MN cop got what was coming to him.  Bad cop charged with murder and now on suicide watch.  No one condones his actions.  No one.  If I was a black man I would be ashamed at what has happened since.  They just set back the movement decades.  Sure I'll be condemned for speaking truth but I don't care.  I am not a racist don't care what anyone's skin color is.  Judge a person for who they are on the inside.  People need to be honest about what's going on before it can change though.

Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 02, 2020, 12:15:05 PM
And I reject completely the idea put forth by GM, that this is somehow part of black culture. Not plainly stated, but there nonetheless. And what do the protesters have to say about the looters?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/31/george-floyd-protesters-condemn-opportunistic-looting-violence

Let's not let the action of a few distract from the larger issues. And yes, it is a small percentage who are getting an outsized amount of attention.

Time to pull your head out Ricky,  the crime stats in this country are clear.   As you watch thousands of looters breaking into stores carrying out merchandise by the armful in every major city across the country.
 You can ignore it on high definition TV right in your living room if you like.  Boyfriends with girlfriends, kids, fathers, mothers walking, in cars, and bikes heading down to loot stores. Lack of  father figures in 70% of the black community homes.  You are watching a culture that is ok with disrespect for authority.  Not all blacks, but the numbers are telling.   As you watch the thousands of people entering the looted stores on TV, think about what it takes for a person to enter that store, steal loads of merchandise and where their values and morals came from.    "Can you take a picture of me walking out with a TV, I want to show my friends".   Wake up Ricky!!!!                   
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 02, 2020, 12:53:19 PM
scoremore and GM,

Pulled this video out at random. Please look at the video and tell me it's only one race doing the looting.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/02/video-shows-looters-ransacking-storefronts-in-philadelphia/

Now, as far as crime stats go, yes, blacks are proportionally over represented. However, the police arrest a guy doing a burglary, find 25 other cases that have the same MO, and it's the same guy who did them all. So, we have to be careful how we view statistics. They can be unreliable. I lived in Milwaukee for many years, couldn't get the job I wanted there, but was signed to teach in Texas, and been here ever since. Is Chicago does have a major problem with crime, especially murder. Some like to point out the strict gun laws and how they're not working. What this misses is that the states around Illinois- especially Indiana, have very lax gun laws, so getting guns and transporting them to Chicago is easy. But this is typical of a certain kind of thinking: find the worst examples, and apply them to an entire group. How about NYC? Last year, 300 murders. And Chicago? Try this- bad, but getting incrementally better:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/31/us/chicago-murders-drop-2019/index.html

Now, scoremore, you said you weren't a racist. GM, you probably have the same belief. Sorry to break it to you, and I'll try to be gentle, but yes you are. As am I. The difference is I know it and fight against it. This is not easy to believe or accept. And racism is not something I drop into conversations or use lightly. For example, don't like "Black Panther"? No, that doesn't make you racist, it makes you able to see an overhyped movie for what it is- overhyped. But reading your posts, it seems pretty clear that you are far from accepting "them" as being equal to "us".

Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 02, 2020, 01:13:53 PM
scoremore and GM,

Pulled this video out at random. Please look at the video and tell me it's only one race doing the looting.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/02/video-shows-looters-ransacking-storefronts-in-philadelphia/

Now, as far as crime stats go, yes, blacks are proportionally over represented. However, the police arrest a guy doing a burglary, find 25 other cases that have the same MO, and it's the same guy who did them all. So, we have to be careful how we view statistics. They can be unreliable. I lived in Milwaukee for many years, couldn't get the job I wanted there, but was signed to teach in Texas, and been here ever since. Is Chicago does have a major problem with crime, especially murder. Some like to point out the strict gun laws and how they're not working. What this misses is that the states around Illinois- especially Indiana, have very lax gun laws, so getting guns and transporting them to Chicago is easy. But this is typical of a certain kind of thinking: find the worst examples, and apply them to an entire group. How about NYC? Last year, 300 murders. And Chicago? Try this- bad, but getting incrementally better:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/31/us/chicago-murders-drop-2019/index.html

Now, scoremore, you said you weren't a racist. GM, you probably have the same belief. Sorry to break it to you, and I'll try to be gentle, but yes you are. As am I. The difference is I know it and fight against it. This is not easy to believe or accept. And racism is not something I drop into conversations or use lightly. For example, don't like "Black Panther"? No, that doesn't make you racist, it makes you able to see an overhyped movie for what it is- overhyped. But reading your posts, it seems pretty clear that you are far from accepting "them" as being equal to "us".

Its not a us vs them, its right vs wrong.   I look up to plenty of black people as role models and leaders.  I thank them for what they do.  As I mentioned its not all black people doing the looting.   The white people are thugs and losers too.  Im not accepting of people who physically hurt businesses, property and people, regardless of race.   
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 02, 2020, 01:41:14 PM
Right v. wrong. https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/06/02/myles-garrett-offers-to-help-family-of-man-killed-in-louisville-protest/

Sometimes, we live in two different realities. Here is an insight into a different viewpoint:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/kristatorres/unwritten-rules-for-a-young-black-man?origin=flipboard

And another viewpoint: https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/06/02/jeffery-lurie-we-have-battled-a-relentless-social-pandemic-our-entire-history/

We are letting the actions of a few get all the attention. We need to think and analyze, not over-react and lose sight of the real problem. The people doing the looting and burning are using this an an excuse to cover criminal actions. But let's not lose sight of the latest outrage that has occurred. Too often, we become numb to events. Mass shootings? Terrible. Thoughts and prayers. It's too early to talk about underlying issues. Move on until the next one. Rinse and repeat. This is a recipe for disaster. And it is coming.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Premontre1969 on June 02, 2020, 03:49:44 PM
It is unfortunate that well intentioned demonstrations should be so tarnished by anarchy. But despite the lawlessness I think we will come through this ordeal as a better society.

It is clear to all that the majority of White people understand and are sympathetic to injustice against the Black community. Those demonstrations are visual proof of a more integrated people expressing solidarity.

When peaceful protests have degenerated to criminal hooliganism it has often been more White than Black perpetrators.

It didn’t help that the Covid lockdown left many people bursting at the seams for some socialization, some action. Add alcoholic beverages to the party and peaceful demonstration can quickly take an ugly turn.

Obviously there remains significant racial ignorance in our society and it is manifested most glaringly in some police interactions. Officer Chauvin had a history of complaints so probably got away with many other abuses of power. But this is a time when almost everyone has a cell phone at the ready and many of those unjust interactions will be recorded and plastered on TV’s across the world. Our society has little tolerance for injustice so I am optimistic for better police training and supervision in the future.

I am also optimistic for continued improvement in race relations in a more caring and inclusive society.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 02, 2020, 04:09:42 PM
It is unfortunate that well intentioned demonstrations should be so tarnished by anarchy. But despite the lawlessness I think we will come through this ordeal as a better society.

It is clear to all that the majority of White people understand and are sympathetic to injustice against the Black community. Those demonstrations are visual proof of a more integrated people expressing solidarity.

When peaceful protests have degenerated to criminal hooliganism it has often been more White than Black purpetrators.

It didn’t help that the Covid lockdown left many people bursting at the seams for some socialization, some action. Add alcoholic beverages to the party and peaceful demonstration can quickly take an ugly turn.

Obviously there remains significant racial ignorance in our society and it is manifested most glaringly in some police interactions. Officer Chauvin had a history of complaints so probably got away with many other abuses of power. But this is a time when almost everyone has a cell phone at the ready and many of those unjust interactions will be recorded and plastered on TV’s across the world. Our society has little tolerance for injustice so I am optimistic for better police training and supervision in the future.

I am also optimistic for continued improvement in race relations in a more caring and inclusive society.

I hope you're right. But it's going to take a lot of hard work to achieve this goal. And I'm not sure that people are willing to do take on this difficult task.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 02, 2020, 04:18:12 PM
Agree with many of the posts here.  The officers involved need to be charged and let the courts make the call.  I do have to say that George Floyd didnt deserve what happened to him, nobody does, but this Saint had Fentanyl in his system, had recent meth involvement, and reportedly spit on police while being arrested.  Again he didnt deserve the treatment he got but you gotta do better than this on both sides.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 02, 2020, 06:33:10 PM
Agree with many of the posts here.  The officers involved need to be charged and let the courts make the call.  I do have to say that George Floyd didnt deserve what happened to him, nobody does, but this Saint had Fentanyl in his system, had recent meth involvement, and reportedly spit on police while being arrested.  Again he didnt deserve the treatment he got but you gotta do better than this on both sides.

No one is calling him a "Saint". And if he did spit on the police, that deserved a little rougher treatment. Also, just because he "had Fentanyl in his system or had recent meth involvement" is also not a factor in this. As noted, he didn't deserve this, and these constant attempts to find extenuating circumstances and to somehow give the police cause for their actions doesn't cut it with me. This is instead a very good example of why it will be so hard moving toward a more equal society.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 02, 2020, 07:02:58 PM
Agree with many of the posts here.  The officers involved need to be charged and let the courts make the call.  I do have to say that George Floyd didnt deserve what happened to him, nobody does, but this Saint had Fentanyl in his system, had recent meth involvement, and reportedly spit on police while being arrested.  Again he didnt deserve the treatment he got but you gotta do better than this on both sides.

No one is calling him a "Saint". And if he did spit on the police, that deserved a little rougher treatment. Also, just because he "had Fentanyl in his system or had recent meth involvement" is also not a factor in this. As noted, he didn't deserve this, and these constant attempts to find extenuating circumstances and to somehow give the police cause for their actions doesn't cut it with me. This is instead a very good example of why it will be so hard moving toward a more equal society.

Disagree on the factors which got him there.  Guy on drugs, passing conterfeit money, spitting on a cop, gets him  deservedly on the ground and detained.  Hes a big guy on drugs.  I got no issues with that whether he's black, white or green. The knee to the neck is where this goes wrong. 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 02, 2020, 07:52:11 PM
Agree with many of the posts here.  The officers involved need to be charged and let the courts make the call.  I do have to say that George Floyd didnt deserve what happened to him, nobody does, but this Saint had Fentanyl in his system, had recent meth involvement, and reportedly spit on police while being arrested.  Again he didnt deserve the treatment he got but you gotta do better than this on both sides.

No one is calling him a "Saint". And if he did spit on the police, that deserved a little rougher treatment. Also, just because he "had Fentanyl in his system or had recent meth involvement" is also not a factor in this. As noted, he didn't deserve this, and these constant attempts to find extenuating circumstances and to somehow give the police cause for their actions doesn't cut it with me. This is instead a very good example of why it will be so hard moving toward a more equal society.

Disagree on the factors which got him there.  Guy on drugs, passing conterfeit money, spitting on a cop, gets him  deservedly on the ground and detained.  Hes a big guy on drugs.  I got no issues with that whether he's black, white or green. The knee to the neck is where this goes wrong.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/healing-addiction/202006/george-floyd-s-toxicology-causes-toxic-stigma-and-prejudice
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 02, 2020, 08:01:49 PM
Agree with many of the posts here.  The officers involved need to be charged and let the courts make the call.  I do have to say that George Floyd didnt deserve what happened to him, nobody does, but this Saint had Fentanyl in his system, had recent meth involvement, and reportedly spit on police while being arrested.  Again he didnt deserve the treatment he got but you gotta do better than this on both sides.

No one is calling him a "Saint". And if he did spit on the police, that deserved a little rougher treatment. Also, just because he "had Fentanyl in his system or had recent meth involvement" is also not a factor in this. As noted, he didn't deserve this, and these constant attempts to find extenuating circumstances and to somehow give the police cause for their actions doesn't cut it with me. This is instead a very good example of why it will be so hard moving toward a more equal society.

Disagree on the factors which got him there.  Guy on drugs, passing conterfeit money, spitting on a cop, gets him  deservedly on the ground and detained.  Hes a big guy on drugs.  I got no issues with that whether he's black, white or green. The knee to the neck is where this goes wrong.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/healing-addiction/202006/george-floyd-s-toxicology-causes-toxic-stigma-and-prejudice

Good sympathetic article, but it doesnt change what got him arrested and detained.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: dannobanano on June 02, 2020, 08:47:40 PM
Agree with many of the posts here.  The officers involved need to be charged and let the courts make the call.  I do have to say that George Floyd didnt deserve what happened to him, nobody does, but this Saint had Fentanyl in his system, had recent meth involvement, and reportedly spit on police while being arrested.  Again he didnt deserve the treatment he got but you gotta do better than this on both sides.

https://lafuentehollywood.com/mixing-meth-and-fentanyl/
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 02, 2020, 10:38:52 PM
Agree with many of the posts here.  The officers involved need to be charged and let the courts make the call.  I do have to say that George Floyd didnt deserve what happened to him, nobody does, but this Saint had Fentanyl in his system, had recent meth involvement, and reportedly spit on police while being arrested.  Again he didnt deserve the treatment he got but you gotta do better than this on both sides.

https://lafuentehollywood.com/mixing-meth-and-fentanyl/

Another red herring. Another attempt to whitewash what happened. Did he mix meth and fentanyl? No. He had some amount of fentanyl in his system, according to the local ME. Why bring this up now? And he had used meth? Were there traces, or was this something that was told to the ME? In any case, having your neck knelt on for almost nine minutes, while repeatedly saying you couldn't breathe could have been a contributing factor also. To me, this makes the ME's office seem less credible.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 03, 2020, 12:56:04 PM
This monologue by Jimmy Kimmel is amazing. The only thing he may have gotten wrong is that the police didn't use tear gas, but smoke grenades to clear the protesters from the area in D.C. Other than that, he lays out a strong case, IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9XtUDB4ykA

This article probes the claims by the administration, and though tear gas might not have been used, a combination of smoke and chemical irritants could have a very similar effect. The claim by the administration of objects being thrown is being strongly disputed.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/06/03/floyd-protests-tear-gas-used-clear-park-trumps-walk/3128855001/
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 03, 2020, 04:31:55 PM
This monologue by Jimmy Kimmel is amazing. The only thing he may have gotten wrong is that the police didn't use tear gas, but smoke grenades to clear the protesters from the area in D.C. Other than that, he lays out a strong case, IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9XtUDB4ykA


The only thing missing from that Hollywood agenda garbage was Lance Armstrong telling it.  Spin, lies and BS. 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 03, 2020, 06:19:47 PM
This monologue by Jimmy Kimmel is amazing. The only thing he may have gotten wrong is that the police didn't use tear gas, but smoke grenades to clear the protesters from the area in D.C. Other than that, he lays out a strong case, IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9XtUDB4ykA


The only thing missing from that Hollywood agenda garbage was Lance Armstrong telling it.  Spin, lies and BS.

Please, break down the video and point out the "Spin, lies and BS." That the people protesting are separate from those taking advantage of the situation and looting? That "white privilege" means you aren't immediately a suspect? Please explain what he got wrong, and why.

And relating to the title in this thread, another voice chimes in with what will be an unpopular to many on here:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/06/03/aaron-rodgers-its-never-been-about-the-flag/
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: scoremore on June 03, 2020, 07:02:44 PM
This monologue by Jimmy Kimmel is amazing. The only thing he may have gotten wrong is that the police didn't use tear gas, but smoke grenades to clear the protesters from the area in D.C. Other than that, he lays out a strong case, IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9XtUDB4ykA


The only thing missing from that Hollywood agenda garbage was Lance Armstrong telling it.  Spin, lies and BS.

Right on GM.  Jimmy Kimmel is a shemale.  Media bias has never been more extreme. Um let's see the President has the guts to walk through the park that the "peaceful protestors" completely vandalized.  Trying to say we won't allow this in our country.  I watched it live couldn't believe he had the stones to do that.   Totally a strong move of leadership.  Then the media spins it into this BS.  The New York mayor just released 630 people arrested for looting and vandalism to go right back out on the streets and do it again.  Where is the outrage about this?  I am so disgusted by these liberal fools.  Watch your cities burn.  You voted for these people now you can live with the consequences.  How would you like to be NYPD.  The mayor tells you to stand down why your city burns.  Then decides OK arrest them.  Then he sets them all free.  Unbelievable.  I am beyond upset.  Ricky your a good dude but you have to put on your thinking cap and look at what is really going on here.  Don't quote your liberal articles written by shemales.  I won't read them because I don't care what some fool has to say.  I've been watching what is going on with my own eyes.  Don't need to listen to some pundits liberal spin.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 03, 2020, 08:42:38 PM
This monologue by Jimmy Kimmel is amazing. The only thing he may have gotten wrong is that the police didn't use tear gas, but smoke grenades to clear the protesters from the area in D.C. Other than that, he lays out a strong case, IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9XtUDB4ykA


The only thing missing from that Hollywood agenda garbage was Lance Armstrong telling it.  Spin, lies and BS.

Please, break down the video and point out the "Spin, lies and BS." That the people protesting are separate from those taking advantage of the situation and looting? That "white privilege" means you aren't immediately a suspect? Please explain what he got wrong, and why.

1.  "He is the President if we can call him that"

He is the President,  Kimmel's BS isnt going to change that no matter what his idiot followers think.

2.  "The President was wisked into a panic bunker on Friday"   

Trump went to the bunker on FRIDAY AFTERNOON for a short time to take a look around with the Secret Service.  There was no threat to the President at the White House.   Kimmell spins this like he was hiding.  Complete BS.  This wasnt at night when looting and fireworks start.  it was in the middle of the afternoon for a very short time, it had nothing to do with the current threat outside  The Secret Service is in charge of his protection, if they say go downstairs, he goes.   You saw what happened when they moved the crowd back, that would have happened 1000 fold if there was a legit threat.   The media is a joke and you should have learned that from the 2 year Russian Collusion BS that was a "locked in stone certainty".   

3.  "Tear gas and rubber bullets were used to move the crowd back". 

Complete BS.   The Park Police and the Secretary of the ARMY both said that didnt happen.  The President can go anywhere he wants, that includes every President (Clinton, Bush, Obama) and when he does the streets are cleared, its part of being in Washington DC.   If you are in that area, you will be moved quickly.  Of course the liberal media idiots like Kimmel dont tell you that. 

4.  "Trump says hes done more for Black people that every President since Lincoln"

I guess record low unemployment for the African American community doesnt count? 
__________________________________________________________________________________

I understand the need for the black community to seek social justices in certain areas but this killing of black men by police officers myth is vastly overblown.

In 2019, In the US

10 million arrests
1004 people shot by police
there were 41 unarmed people killed by police in the US
20 were white  (where's the outrage?, can you name any of them?)
9 were black (how many of them were going after a police officers gun?, the media plasters their names on the news every night)
12 were other races

Stats show that a police officer is more likely to be killed by a armed black man, than a unarmed black man is likely to be killed by a police officer.  Think about that when you see these idiots beating on cops as these liberal media idiots perpetuate the myth

Progress has been made in this area in the past year,   you never saw stats like that in 8 years of Obama and Biden,  the ALLEGED civil rights guys. 












Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 03, 2020, 09:23:57 PM
Trump is president in name only. He is facing a major crisis, and failing. For the second time. First Covid, now public outrage. What is needed is leadership. Sad.

He was "inspecting the bunker"? The timing is certainly interesting. And, no, the President doesn't go where the Secret Service goes; the Secret Service goes where he goes. Again, lack of leadership. Sad.

We can get into the weeds on this one, but the President decided it was a good time to show he could "dominate", and away he went for a photo-op. Yes, people are routinely re-routed during Presidential movements; but on short notice, and using troops to clear an area where there was a peaceful protest going on? For what purpose? To show who was in charge, and that protests will not be tolerated. Scary. Was tear gas used? I addressed that earlier. Rubber bullets in that particular situation? Don't know.

https://wtop.com/dc/2020/06/dc-george-floyd-protests-day-4/

Unemployment was indeed down. Good. However, Obama managed to cut the black unemployment rate in half, from about 16% to about 8%.. Trump lowered it another two points.

https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000006

As far as deaths by police officers, where did you get that info, because it is contrary to reality:

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

The charts are damning, but here is an excerpt from the article linked above:

Fig. 2 displays the ratio of lifetime risk for each racial–ethnic group relative to risk for whites for both men and women. Note that a rate ratio of 1 indicates equality in mortality risk relative to whites. The highest levels of inequality in mortality risk are experienced by black men. Black men are about 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police over the life course than are white men. Black women are about 1.4 times more likely to be killed by police than are white women. Although risks are estimated with less precision for American Indian/Alaska Native men and women than for other groups, we show that they face a higher lifetime risk of being killed by police than do whites. American Indian men are between 1.2 and 1.7 times more likely to be killed by police than are white men, and American Indian women are between 1.1 and 2.1 times more likely to be killed by police than are white women. Latino men are between 1.3 and 1.4 times more likely to be killed by police than are white men, but Latina women are between 12% and 23% less likely to be killed by police than are white women. Both Asian/Pacific Islander men and women are more than 50% less likely to be killed by police than are white men and women, respectively.



Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 03, 2020, 09:45:14 PM
Right on GM.  Jimmy Kimmel is a shemale.  Media bias has never been more extreme. Um let's see the President has the guts to walk through the park that the "peaceful protestors" completely vandalized.  Trying to say we won't allow this in our country.  I watched it live couldn't believe he had the stones to do that.   Totally a strong move of leadership.  Then the media spins it into this BS.  The New York mayor just released 630 people arrested for looting and vandalism to go right back out on the streets and do it again.  Where is the outrage about this?  I am so disgusted by these liberal fools.  Watch your cities burn.  You voted for these people now you can live with the consequences.  How would you like to be NYPD.  The mayor tells you to stand down why your city burns.  Then decides OK arrest them.  Then he sets them all free.  Unbelievable.  I am beyond upset.  Ricky your a good dude but you have to put on your thinking cap and look at what is really going on here.  Don't quote your liberal articles written by shemales.  I won't read them because I don't care what some fool has to say.  I've been watching what is going on with my own eyes.  Don't need to listen to some pundits liberal spin.

"Shemale"? Seriously? That is just really, really bad. Attack the argument, not the orator. Name calling should have gone out in middle school, or at worst high school. Not that any serious person would make up nasty names for his opponents.

So, you believe Trump was showing leadership? He had "stones" to have the military clear out a crowd of protesters (not looters or rioters; let's not conflate the two). Then, once a perimeter was established, he walked with a group of white men to stand with a Bible in his hand. Has he ever read it, or understood the fundamental idea of the New Testament? How about showing leadership by understanding why people are angry? How about trying to defuse the situation? How about making a statement that shows compassion, caring or even a flicker of human decency? As far as the "630 people arrested for looting and vandalism", can you provide a link on this? I can't find anything online. There are reports of people being released from Rikers Island due to the Covid threat.

I found live streams online, but can't vouch for the quality. OK, watched a few minutes. Raw footage shot in real time from ground level. Did this include the clearing of the park? If so, please provide a link to that also. If it shows vandalism being done by the protesters, fine. If not, please offer some proof.



Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Hands on June 04, 2020, 06:44:45 AM
Two different viewpoints, so two different opinions. Now, thanks to sloppy reporting and inaccurate reports....two different versions of the truth. It's amazing!
People may say this is police brutality, but in reality it could be a lot more sinister. Everyone knows that the officer that killed Floyd and Floyd worked together at the same club/bar...right? Do people know that?
Floyd passes counterfeit money (does everyone even know that?) and the first guy on the scene is someone who knows him and has worked with him for several years. I find that pretty significant. It could have been a set-up and Floyd was the patsy and realized too late that there was nothing he could do. I just don't think an officer answers a counterfeit money bill call on his radio that quickly unless he knew what was going to happen, and who was going to do it.
Another question, do people know or even care that Michael Brown in Ferguson, never said..."hands up don't shoot" and in fact tried to grab the police officer's gun?
Ricky, Trump went through 2.5 years of fake reports and investigations that have since been proven to be lies and now the DOJ will be handing out indictments to prove it. You say he is the president in name only and that's fine because everyone has an opinion. But when people say he's a racist....These are points to understand why I think that opinion may be wrong. Because a racist would never work this hard for people he hated.
He managed lowest unemployment ever for blacks and Hispanics.
Created Opportunity Zones in underdeveloped communities
Eliminated sentencing disparities from Clinton-era crime bill which has freed many blacks that have been jailed for years.
Let’s not forget the 360M$ grant to support HBCUs like Virginia Union, etc. All of these could have been done by Obama or even Bush…but they weren’t. If he’s a racist…he’s doing a poor job at it.
His response to the China flu, implemented a travel ban (which was mocked by everyone who dislikes him) and shutdown the economy. I think that was his biggest mistake, but just my opinion. The deaths in NY,NJ,MA,PA,MI were in large part of sending infected patient back into their nursing homes. Cuomo said he was following CDC guidelines, but later admitted it was his mistake in the NY Post. You can blame Trump for that, but the states governors was running the shutdowns.
So I disagree with the job performance you gave him, but that is why we vote. I may not like him, but I also know he's no politician so he's never going to be smooth like past presidents. That's the difference IMHO, he gets the job done, where others just talk about doing something.
 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: scoremore on June 04, 2020, 07:13:43 AM
So much for hiding Ricky.  Totally a bold move that lawlessness won't stand. 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 04, 2020, 07:35:31 AM


He was "inspecting the bunker"? The timing is certainly interesting. And, no, the President doesn't go where the Secret Service goes; the Secret Service goes where he goes. Again, lack of leadership. Sad.

"Trump was wisked away to a bunker"   Wisked by who?  If the Secret Service follows Trump who is wisking him?  Ricky , you clearly dont understand the media goes out of their way to make up things about Trump and constantly put things in a negative light.  There was never a threat to Trump, the White House is a fortress.  He has NO reason to worry about security there.   The President can go wherever he wants, its up to the Secret Service to make it happen, if there is a threat, the Secret Service takes him to a safe place.    They control where he goes in that initial timeframe to get him out of harms way.       




We can get into the weeds on this one, but the President decided it was a good time to show he could "dominate", and away he went for a photo-op. Yes, people are routinely re-routed during Presidential movements; but on short notice, and using troops to clear an area where there was a peaceful protest going on? For what purpose? To show who was in charge, and that protests will not be tolerated. Scary. Was tear gas used? I addressed that earlier. Rubber bullets in that particular situation? Don't know.

If Trump wants to go to the Church, he goes, he doesn't decide how things are cleared or what is used.  Thats up to the Police, Secret Service and in this case the Army.  As usual It was fake news and a false report.   Pull your head out of your ass, Ricky.   Do you think he would sit down with his security and decides if tear gas and rubber bullets are going to be used?   Trump is in charge, and in case you missed it the protests are still going on,  Your delusional thinking about protests not being tolerated is 100% BS.  You saw what his security can do in a moments notice, yet the protesters are allowed to come back and are still there in the days following.   Thats 100% garbage from your news source.



Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 04, 2020, 07:55:45 AM
Right on GM.  Jimmy Kimmel is a shemale.  Media bias has never been more extreme. Um let's see the President has the guts to walk through the park that the "peaceful protestors" completely vandalized.  Trying to say we won't allow this in our country.  I watched it live couldn't believe he had the stones to do that.   Totally a strong move of leadership.  Then the media spins it into this BS.  The New York mayor just released 630 people arrested for looting and vandalism to go right back out on the streets and do it again.  Where is the outrage about this?  I am so disgusted by these liberal fools.  Watch your cities burn.  You voted for these people now you can live with the consequences.  How would you like to be NYPD.  The mayor tells you to stand down why your city burns.  Then decides OK arrest them.  Then he sets them all free.  Unbelievable.  I am beyond upset.  Ricky your a good dude but you have to put on your thinking cap and look at what is really going on here.  Don't quote your liberal articles written by shemales.  I won't read them because I don't care what some fool has to say.  I've been watching what is going on with my own eyes.  Don't need to listen to some pundits liberal spin.

 How about trying to defuse the situation? How about making a statement that shows compassion, caring or even a flicker of human decency?

The President in this case doesnt have a lot of the power the Mayors and Governors have.  He has made many statements regarding the sadness of the events and the officers should be charged to the fullest extent of the law.   As far as the human decency BS,  this noncompassionate, undecent President is leading us through the worldwide caronavirus pandemic.  He put $1000+ in every bank account in the country, blacks, whites, hispanics, asians, just two months ago.  Time to wake up Ricky and stop getting your info from agenda driven sources.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 04, 2020, 08:58:10 AM
Two different viewpoints, so two different opinions. Now, thanks to sloppy reporting and inaccurate reports....two different versions of the truth. It's amazing!

Inaccurate reporting, in that not all the nuances were correct; wait for a correction, which Kimmel did the next night, for example.

People may say this is police brutality, but in reality it could be a lot more sinister. Everyone knows that the officer that killed Floyd and Floyd worked together at the same club/bar...right? Do people know that?

Yes, I for did know that. They worked security at the same night club for a while. Not years, as you said, but an overlapping period of a few months. Did they ever meet each other? Unknown. As usual, here's a source:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/chauvin-floyd-club-employment/


loyd passes counterfeit money (does everyone even know that?) and the first guy on the scene is someone who knows him and has worked with him for several years. I find that pretty significant. It could have been a set-up and Floyd was the patsy and realized too late that there was nothing he could do. I just don't think an officer answers a counterfeit money bill call on his radio that quickly unless he knew what was going to happen, and who was going to do it.

Yes, it's well known that Floyd was trying to pass a counterfeit $20 bill. He also had traces of fentynal in his system, and may have been intoxicated. Also, somehow the ME has declared that he may have done meth recently. But the rest of this is bizarre. Floyd is being "set up" by who, and for what reason? And again, they didn't work together for "years". My goodness, I worked in the same school for over twenty years, and didn't meet all the people who worked there. It's a coincidence, not a conspiracy. Get a grip.


Another question, do people know or even care that Michael Brown in Ferguson, never said..."hands up don't shoot" and in fact tried to grab the police officer's gun?

I actually brought this up much earlier in this thread. What this has to do with the killing of George Floyd is unclear. That protesters continue to cite Brown as a "murder victim" is being done out of ignorance. It should stop. But it's also irrelevant to what happened to Floyd.

Ricky, Trump went through 2.5 years of fake reports and investigations that have since been proven to be lies and now the DOJ will be handing out indictments to prove it. You say he is the president in name only and that's fine because everyone has an opinion. But when people say he's a racist....These are points to understand why I think that opinion may be wrong. Because a racist would never work this hard for people he hated.

Again, all I can write is look into this with less bias and seek out wider sources than right wing publications. And don't take any of this without a big grain of salt. As far as racist, no, but clueless? Yes.


He managed lowest unemployment ever for blacks and Hispanics.
Created Opportunity Zones in underdeveloped communities
Eliminated sentencing disparities from Clinton-era crime bill which has freed many blacks that have been jailed for years.
Let’s not forget the 360M$ grant to support HBCUs like Virginia Union, etc. All of these could have been done by Obama or even Bush…but they weren’t. If he’s a racist…he’s doing a poor job at it.

As I pointed out, the unemployment rate for blacks dropped by half under Obama. The lowering of the unemployment rate continued under Trump. But it began earlier. Opportunity Zones were a bipartisan effort (meaning both parties actually agreed on something) that was signed into law by Trump. In that sense, he "created" them. But the structure and policies were created by the Congress. The Fair Sentencing Act was passed in 2010. That is when the disparities were first addressed. Trump continues that tradition. HBCU's? Here's a link exposing another exaggeration: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/01/23/trumps-claim-about-saving-hbcus-was-false-his-administration-has-largely-backed

His response to the China flu, implemented a travel ban (which was mocked by everyone who dislikes him) and shutdown the economy. I think that was his biggest mistake, but just my opinion. The deaths in NY,NJ,MA,PA,MI were in large part of sending infected patient back into their nursing homes. Cuomo said he was following CDC guidelines, but later admitted it was his mistake in the NY Post. You can blame Trump for that, but the states governors was running the shutdowns.

Agreed, the travel ban was correct. Just as the later travel ban from Brazil was a good move. But, he didn't "shut down the economy". He finally, at the constant urging of his medical advisors, asked for governors to impose strict rules. But this was done after the virus had clearly become a problem. He denied this, even going so far as to not allowing cruise ships that had Covid patients to dock- meaning that a lot more people got the virus than necessary. Why? Because he didn't want "his numbers to look bad when it's not our fault." He also disbanded the task force meant to prevent disease outbreaks like Covid. And though he blames Obama for "leaving the shelves empty" of needed medical equipment, he had three years to replenish those shelves.
https://khn.org/morning-breakout/white-house-task-force-to-disband-but-trump-will-retain-birx-fauci-as-pandemic-advisers/

He also continues to set a bad example- never wears a face mask, doesn't follow distancing recommendations, and constantly gives really bad advice on how to combat Covid. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/05/trumps-lies-about-coronavirus/608647/


So I disagree with the job performance you gave him, but that is why we vote. I may not like him, but I also know he's no politician so he's never going to be smooth like past presidents. That's the difference IMHO, he gets the job done, where others just talk about doing something.

Assuming we'll be allowed to vote. With the fears of Covid, and states shutting down polling places, it will become much harder to vote in person. Why? Most of the volunteers are retired, and therefore much older, and fall into the group most susceptible to Covid. The answer would be mail-in ballots. But that, of course would lead to massive fraud. Though Trump does this, as does his Press Secretary/spokeswoman. And the states that have turned to mail-in voting have virtually record of fraud. But if the number of voters can be kept smaller, and certain communities excluded or reduced? This could be the path to re-election for Trump. Which would be fraudulent.

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/494189-lets-put-the-vote-by-mail-fraud-myth-to-rest

Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 04, 2020, 09:07:31 AM
So much for hiding Ricky.  Totally a bold move that lawlessness won't stand.

I already addressed this. So he gets soldiers to clear out an area, stands around while surrounded by hundreds of heavily armed troops, and this is a show of strength. No, it's a show of intimidation. An attempt to show who's in charge; that peaceful protests won't be tolerated. This is NOT a defense of the looters/burners. The protesters and looters are two separate, distinct groups. And the makeup of the looters has yet to be fully determined. And of course Trump was just "inspecting" the bunker. So, he reads hears about the claims he was in the bunker, and decides to show everyone how he's not afraid. Did he use this opportunity to address the community or the nation? Nope. Stand there with a bunch of older white guys, hold a Bible upside down, and pose for photos. You see this as strength. I see this as a pathetic, and meant to fan the flames of division in this country. We need someone to step forward and try to heal the wounds, not make grandstanding gestures to try to show how macho he is.

I've been repeatedly accused of not being properly informed. OK. So, this thread started with another misunderstanding- that the protests during the anthem were disrespectful to said song, or the troops (past and present, living and dead), or the flag, or all of the above. It didn't matter that the reason for the protest was carefully explained. Because feelings and beliefs are more important than facts. So, considering the recent events in this country- how would you (and this is a generic call to everyone who posts here) feel if players took some time to protest before or after the game? Would you consider that appropriate? Acceptable? Or would you be really offended? If the protests didn't happen during the anthem, would they be more palatable? Or are protests themselves unacceptable by football players while on a field of play? 

Finally, a video sent out by the Packers: https://twitter.com/packers/status/1268539283591356416?s=20
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 04, 2020, 10:29:16 AM
So much for hiding Ricky.  Totally a bold move that lawlessness won't stand.

I already addressed this. So he gets soldiers to clear out an area, stands around while surrounded by hundreds of heavily armed troops, and this is a show of strength. No, it's a show of intimidation. An attempt to show who's in charge; that peaceful protests won't be tolerated.

Meanwhile, the peaceful protesters are allowed to form up and are there again this morning.  So much for untolerated protests!!!   No reports of hand grenades or protesters being shot.  Dont worry though your news source will come up with something.    Nice Spin attempt Ricky

Heavily armored troops?   Who told you that??  NONE of those military troops are carrying guns,  NONE of them!!!!  They arent allowed.   They are there to play a secondary role to the police, nothing more.    More garbage spin from your news source.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 04, 2020, 02:37:34 PM
Meanwhile, the peaceful protesters are allowed to form up and are there again this morning.  So much for untolerated protests!!!   No reports of hand grenades or protesters being shot.  Dont worry though your news source will come up with something.    Nice Spin attempt Ricky

Heavily armored troops?   Who told you that??  NONE of those military troops are carrying guns,  NONE of them!!!!  They arent allowed.   They are there to play a secondary role to the police, nothing more.    More garbage spin from your news source.

The protesters were cleared from the park so Trump could have a photo op. And Trump never has called for prosecution to the fullest of the officers involved, as far a I can tell. He did say the events were terrible, then immediately turned to stirring the pot. Three sentences about the death of Floyd:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-by-the-president-39/

At a time we need someone to be compassionate and caring, while also working to defuse the situation, we have a faux tough guy. Oh, and about the bunker? If he was taken there by the Secret Service for his protection- that is their job, after all- why not just say that? This is the guy that isn't a politician, and "tells it like it is." And it's not like he doesn't like to blame others for anything that goes wrong. And, no, Trump did not hand out the stimulus checks; that was the Congress acting in a bipartisan manner; he simply signed the bill. And then demanded that his name be on the checks, as if he was giving this money out of his own pocket. But that is the problem- Trump truly sees everything as an extension of him. If the Treasury issues checks, Trump wants all the credit.

Harry Truman had a plaque on his desk in the Oval Office that said "The Buck Stops Here". For Trump, it's more like Sgt. Schultz from "Hogan's Heroes":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34ag4nkSh7Q

Upon further review, no rubber bullets used to clear the park. I was wrong. But there is this report from a DC TV station about what they found at the scene after the park was cleared. I still lean toward the Park Service not knowing if tear gas was used, or if was a mixture of smoke grenades and pepper balls.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/tear-gas-washington-dc-protests-st-johns-church/65-7e9a67c7-e40b-47a2-8060-3f7d908139dd
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Shinesman on June 04, 2020, 09:55:17 PM
If you think Trump failed during Covid, you're just trying not to pay attention. He was the first to suggest travel restrictions and was lambasted. He also allowed the states to enforce their own safe standards. Most did. It killed their economies. I'm still waiting on the millions of deaths some people said would happen on here. Instead, the survivability rate of known cases is greater than 99%. So if by failing you mean, not panicking... well then you may have a point. You also seem to forget this fallout is world wide. The US is not the only place that took a major economic hit. Virtually all 1st world countries did. The only two that didnt get vastly affected were the ones who imposed zero lockdowns or restrictions, ironic.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 05, 2020, 08:23:19 AM
If you think Trump failed during Covid, you're just trying not to pay attention. He was the first to suggest travel restrictions and was lambasted. He also allowed the states to enforce their own safe standards. Most did. It killed their economies. I'm still waiting on the millions of deaths some people said would happen on here. Instead, the survivability rate of known cases is greater than 99%. So if by failing you mean, not panicking... well then you may have a point. You also seem to forget this fallout is world wide. The US is not the only place that took a major economic hit. Virtually all 1st world countries did. The only two that didnt get vastly affected were the ones who imposed zero lockdowns or restrictions, ironic.

You are correct on both of your points on the travel restrictions. But, Trump also knew this was dangers at least two months before he acted. He suggested the safety standards too late, and some studies have shown the death rate could have been much lower if he had acted sooner. There is also the lack of medical equipment needed for this, from face masks to protective gear. Again, he disbanded the pandemic response group that should have been planning for this. He could have imposed the Defense Authorization Act to get equipment manufactured; he didn't. Mass testing was needed, so there should have been a push to make sure more testing was available. He refused to let cruise ships with Covid dock in the US because it 'would make our numbers look bad'. For the same reason, he resisted testing, because he had gone on the record saying that Covid was overblown, would never happen here, and that there would be no large death rate. And what "some people on here would happen" is really irrelevant. We're not experts by any means. Trump did have experts, but ignored them, and continues to scorn wearing a mask, at one point calling it "politically correct." This is a stunning lack of leadership. And as far as the mortality rate, check out this chart from Johns Hopkins:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: scoremore on June 05, 2020, 09:29:44 AM
Ricky that is total BS.  He acted sooner than any country in the world.  The Democrats roundly criticized him when he shut down travel from China.  That was January. Remember that?  They were also too busy putting on their fake impeachment hearings to pay attention to what was going on.  Trump acted very aggressively had the Dems been in charge it would have been much much worse.  Quit quoting liberal rags.  The media lies and their hate for Trump is readily apparent.   Go to Zerohedge for some straight news.  You know the real news that the liberal media tries to bury.  Their are some op ed shock pieces in there just ignore them.  Where I go to get the real news.  Media bias is shocking.  They dropped trying to be objective years ago.  Try watching Fox to get the other side of the story.  At least if you get both sides you'll be able to better discern the truth. It's unfortunate the press is so terrible.  Have to dig to get to the truth. 

When the pandemic first broke out death toll was estimated to be in the millions in this country.  We are a little over 100K.  I view that as a success.  If you want to lay blame put if where it belongs.  Squarely on China who covered Covid up and then proceeded to export it to the rest of the world.   WHO who also covered it up for China. 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 05, 2020, 09:37:21 AM
If you think Trump failed during Covid, you're just trying not to pay attention.

Trump should have seen this pandemic coming.  He should have built the ventilators himself,  and had a vaccine ready for this virus nobody heard of.  A real leader would have toured every assisted living home affected regardless of the risk and should have flown there on a commercial airline.  And lastly,  why didnt he spend weekends sewing PPE for hospitals across the country?  Poor leadership.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: dannobanano on June 05, 2020, 10:45:09 AM
Agree with many of the posts here.  The officers involved need to be charged and let the courts make the call.  I do have to say that George Floyd didnt deserve what happened to him, nobody does, but this Saint had Fentanyl in his system, had recent meth involvement, and reportedly spit on police while being arrested.  Again he didnt deserve the treatment he got but you gotta do better than this on both sides.

https://lafuentehollywood.com/mixing-meth-and-fentanyl/

Another red herring. Another attempt to whitewash what happened. Did he mix meth and fentanyl? No. He had some amount of fentanyl in his system, according to the local ME. Why bring this up now? And he had used meth? Were there traces, or was this something that was told to the ME? In any case, having your neck knelt on for almost nine minutes, while repeatedly saying you couldn't breathe could have been a contributing factor also. To me, this makes the ME's office seem less credible.

ricky, I was providing additional context for the fentanyl/meth reference because it is a toxic combination. Whether it had any bearing on his death or not is not the point here. You know it's going to be brought up in the course of the trial, so it bears being mentioned in this discussion.

I'm not trying to whitewash anything with posting that link.

Just wondering if anyone here will be willing to move to Minneapolis after they defund & dismantle the police department?

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/minneapolis-city-council-members-aim-to-dismantle-police-department-rethink-public-safety

I already live in the TC's north metro. Anyone else?
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 05, 2020, 01:18:07 PM
ricky, I was providing additional context for the fentanyl/meth reference because it is a toxic combination. Whether it had any bearing on his death or not is not the point here. You know it's going to be brought up in the course of the trial, so it bears being mentioned in this discussion.

I'm not trying to whitewash anything with posting that link.

Just wondering if anyone here will be willing to move to Minneapolis after they defund & dismantle the police department?

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/minneapolis-city-council-members-aim-to-dismantle-police-department-rethink-public-safety

I already live in the TC's north metro. Anyone else?

danno, I respect your posts about the Packers. But I stand by my statement. Will this be brought up at trial? Of course- the defense will do whatever it can to make Floyd look bad, while trying to make Chauvin look as reasonable and human as possible. That is the job of lawyers. But in this discussion, about the question of whether the officer needed to put his knee on Floyd's neck for almost nine minutes? Irrelevant. This is not a court of law; this is a chat board, where non-experts can exchange opinions. By posting the link to the possible effects of fentanyl mixed with meth, you were explicitly offering a scenario where the police officer had less culpability. This may not be what you intended, but that is what you accomplished, in my view. I'm sure others will see this differently; fine. I can only tell you my thoughts.

Now, as to the alleged "defunding and dismantling" of the Minneapolis police force, two members of the city council did indeed call for "dismantling". However, you apparently didn't read the article very carefully. Here is the key point of discussion:

City Council President Lisa Bender, a fellow Democrat, later replied, "Yes. We are going to dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department and replace it with a transformative new model of public safety."

It's not clear how they would "dismantle" the police department; the lawmakers did not elaborate.


People on the council blowing off steam, grandstanding and running their mouths to appeal to their base- basic politics. The last sentence is the key one: they weren't offering any clear plan, just flapping their gums. If and when the council comes up with a plan, we'll have time to examine it and determine whether it is viable or not. As far as defunding, it's LAPD that is doing that. Here is an analysis of why; this also reeks of politics: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-04/lapd-budget-cuts-garcetti-protests-explainer

I'm sure the following quote from the linked article will outrage a lot of people; it should. Another instance of a politician making a stupid comment. Will there be an apology? I certainly hope so, because rhetoric like that is not going to help:

Council President Nury Martinez and several of her colleagues proposed the same reductions for the LAPD, which would eliminate the increase planned in Garcetti’s budget.

“While a complete overhaul of the city’s budget will take time, we can begin to slowly dismantle those systems that are designed to harm people of color,” Martinez said. “A preliminary cut to the LAPD budget will not solve everything, but it’s a step in the right direction.”



 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: dannobanano on June 05, 2020, 02:04:02 PM
ricky, I was providing additional context for the fentanyl/meth reference because it is a toxic combination. Whether it had any bearing on his death or not is not the point here. You know it's going to be brought up in the course of the trial, so it bears being mentioned in this discussion.

I'm not trying to whitewash anything with posting that link.

Just wondering if anyone here will be willing to move to Minneapolis after they defund & dismantle the police department?

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/minneapolis-city-council-members-aim-to-dismantle-police-department-rethink-public-safety

I already live in the TC's north metro. Anyone else?

danno, I respect your posts about the Packers. But I stand by my statement. Will this be brought up at trial? Of course- the defense will do whatever it can to make Floyd look bad, while trying to make Chauvin look as reasonable and human as possible. That is the job of lawyers. But in this discussion, about the question of whether the officer needed to put his knee on Floyd's neck for almost nine minutes? Irrelevant. This is not a court of law; this is a chat board, where non-experts can exchange opinions. By posting the link to the possible effects of fentanyl mixed with meth, you were explicitly offering a scenario where the police officer had less culpability. This may not be what you intended, but that is what you accomplished, in my view. I'm sure others will see this differently; fine. I can only tell you my thoughts.

Now, as to the alleged "defunding and dismantling" of the Minneapolis police force, two members of the city council did indeed call for "dismantling". However, you apparently didn't read the article very carefully. Here is the key point of discussion:

City Council President Lisa Bender, a fellow Democrat, later replied, "Yes. We are going to dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department and replace it with a transformative new model of public safety."

It's not clear how they would "dismantle" the police department; the lawmakers did not elaborate.


People on the council blowing off steam, grandstanding and running their mouths to appeal to their base- basic politics. The last sentence is the key one: they weren't offering any clear plan, just flapping their gums. If and when the council comes up with a plan, we'll have time to examine it and determine whether it is viable or not. As far as defunding, it's LAPD that is doing that. Here is an analysis of why; this also reeks of politics: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-04/lapd-budget-cuts-garcetti-protests-explainer

I'm sure the following quote from the linked article will outrage a lot of people; it should. Another instance of a politician making a stupid comment. Will there be an apology? I certainly hope so, because rhetoric like that is not going to help:

Council President Nury Martinez and several of her colleagues proposed the same reductions for the LAPD, which would eliminate the increase planned in Garcetti’s budget.

“While a complete overhaul of the city’s budget will take time, we can begin to slowly dismantle those systems that are designed to harm people of color,” Martinez said. “A preliminary cut to the LAPD budget will not solve everything, but it’s a step in the right direction.”


I have NO sympathy for the police officer who did that to Floyd. This cop is/was a POS and deserves to get put away a long time. His list of bad deeds reflects poorly on the people who had oversight of him for years and who were/are bound to protect the citizens of Minneapolis regardless of the color of their skin.

Amy Klobuchar had the chance to can his butt back in 2006 but passed the buck until she left her position as Hennepin County Attorney and the case was dropped after she left by the incoming new HC Attorney. Typical politician (Klobuchar). Let someone else clean up your mess and then point fingers. Maybe the "change" we hear talked about should include people like her as well.

At the same time, Floyd was no saint, and more on that will come out in the trial. While his death was and should have been prevented, and is an indictment against "bad seeds" within law enforcement, the overarching point that has/is being made about him has elevated him to "martyr" status. And, I'm sorry, he was no Joan of Arc.

And a lot of innocent people in many communities are now suffering because of this whole sordid incident. Who's going to protest for all those people?

As for how you interpreted my other post reveals more than you know.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 05, 2020, 02:38:59 PM
Im not so sure this is the slam dunk everybody thinks it is.  The officers should and will be punished, no question.  IMO, there is a lot more to this case than the video.  Yes, it is hard to watch and they will likely end up with jail time for the officer(s)

Follow me here. Pure Speculation on some of it.

They arrest George Floyd

Put him in cuffs, the police report says he spit on at least one officer.

Now here is where the questions come in.  George Floyd tested positive for Covid 19,  Did Floyd know that?  (Dont know).  Did he tell the the officers he had Covid19 and then spit on them?  (Dont Know)

If he did, that changes a lot about how he was treated.   

Is having Covid 19 and spitting in a officer's face (Speculation) the same as shooting at an officer and missing?  You could die from either one.

They reportedly put him in the car and reportedly took him out the other side for some reason (dont know why (spitting?), but we'll find out),   Get him on the ground with his head facing the other way and hold him until help arrived.

Kneeling on his neck clearly isnt the best way to do that, but it was a way keep him from spitting on anybody else.  He died from being restrained.   Clearly the officers fault, but was it murder.  The kneeling officer's past record will and should be part of this.

I think there will be jail time for them, there will be a lot of pressure to convict, but we'll see.  Dont be surprised if this doesnt go exactly how the nation wants and we get riots 2.0.     

Im not saying this is what happened, I dont know, but I believe there will be a lot more to this than what we currently know.

Whats important here, is we get to the truth, and the officers get what they should get.  Whatever the facts say that is and according to the law, not public opinion or  media frenzy.     

 

   
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 05, 2020, 03:05:24 PM

I have NO sympathy for the police officer who did that to Floyd. This cop is/was a POS and deserves to get put away a long time. His list of bad deeds reflects poorly on the people who had oversight of him for years and who were/are bound to protect the citizens of Minneapolis regardless of the color of their skin.

Amy Klobuchar had the chance to can his butt back in 2006 but passed the buck until she left her position as Hennepin County Attorney and the case was dropped after she left by the incoming new HC Attorney. Typical politician (Klobuchar). Let someone else clean up your mess and then point fingers. Maybe the "change" we hear talked about should include people like her as well.

At the same time, Floyd was no saint, and more on that will come out in the trial. While his death was and should have been prevented, and is an indictment against "bad seeds" within law enforcement, the overarching point that has/is being made about him has elevated him to "martyr" status. And, I'm sorry, he was no Joan of Arc.

And a lot of innocent people in many communities are now suffering because of this whole sordid incident. Who's going to protest for all those people?

As for how you interpreted my other post reveals more than you know.

More than fair. Even when angry, you try to stick to facts, rather than personal attacks. Thank you. I now see where you're going with this, and partially agree. Floyd was not a saint, but he was the latest victim in a long list of non-whites who were killed in police interactions that should not have been fatal. I will immediately disavow the Michael Brown case- that was justified. The treatment of the poorer people of Ferguson by the police, though, was a huge problem. And that was not just one bad officer, but the entire department. That innocent people had their businesses destroyed through the actions of looters is appalling; those people should be arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and are, indeed, POS's. Who will protest for them? Perhaps organizing a march in support of store owners who were looted would be a good idea.
Go for it.

As far as Klobuchar, here are two articles looking at the same issue; notice how the accounts differ.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/amy-klobuchar-declined-to-prosecute-derek-chauvin-who-kneeled-on-george-floyd-for-other-violent-encounters

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/28/amy-klobuchar-passed-prosecuting-derek-chauvin-min/


 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 05, 2020, 03:30:24 PM
Im not so sure this is the slam dunk everybody thinks it is.  The officers should and will be punished, no question.  IMO, there is a lot more to this case than the video.  Yes, it is hard to watch and they will likely end up with jail time for the officer(s)

Follow me here. Pure Speculation on some of it.

They arrest George Floyd

Put him in cuffs, the police report says he spit on at least one officer.

Now here is where the questions come in.  George Floyd tested positive for Covid 19,  Did Floyd know that?  (Dont know).  Did he tell the the officers he had Covid19 and then spit on them?  (Dont Know)

If he did, that changes a lot about how he was treated.   

Is having Covid 19 and spitting in a officer's face (Speculation) the same as shooting at an officer and missing?  You could die from either one.

They reportedly put him in the car and reportedly took him out the other side for some reason (dont know why (spitting?), but we'll find out),   Get him on the ground with his head facing the other way and hold him until help arrived.

Kneeling on his neck clearly isnt the best way to do that, but it was a way keep him from spitting on anybody else.  He died from being restrained.   Clearly the officers fault, but was it murder.  The kneeling officer's past record will and should be part of this.

I think there will be jail time for them, there will be a lot of pressure to convict, but we'll see.  Dont be surprised if this doesnt go exactly how the nation wants and we get riots 2.0.     

Im not saying this is what happened, I dont know, but I believe there will be a lot more to this than what we currently know.

Whats important here, is we get to the truth, and the officers get what they should get.  Whatever the facts say that is and according to the law, not public opinion or  media frenzy.     

 

   

Putting aside your speculation, I'll offer an alternative: facts. At least one of the officers holding down Floyd got a "hobble" which would have effectively controlled Floyd without kneeling on him. He was overruled.

https://abc13.com/george-floyd-death-officers-police-minneapolis/6232838/

Here is the relevant part of the article, dealing with an alternative to kneeling on his neck for almost nine minutes:

The complaint against Lane, 37, notes that while he suggested to Chauvin that Floyd should be rolled over he "took no actions to assist Mr. Floyd, to change his position, or to reduce the force the officers were using against Mr. Floyd."

Kueng's complaint says the 26-year-old was positioned between Chauvin and Lane and could hear their comments. Thao, 34, was seen in the cellphone video standing near a crowd of bystanders, and his complaint says although he fetched a hobble restraint - designed to restrict the movement of a person in custody - from the squad car, "the officers decided not to use it and maintained their positions."
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 05, 2020, 04:05:25 PM
Im not so sure this is the slam dunk everybody thinks it is.  The officers should and will be punished, no question.  IMO, there is a lot more to this case than the video.  Yes, it is hard to watch and they will likely end up with jail time for the officer(s)

Follow me here. Pure Speculation on some of it.

They arrest George Floyd

Put him in cuffs, the police report says he spit on at least one officer.

Now here is where the questions come in.  George Floyd tested positive for Covid 19,  Did Floyd know that?  (Dont know).  Did he tell the the officers he had Covid19 and then spit on them?  (Dont Know)

If he did, that changes a lot about how he was treated.   

Is having Covid 19 and spitting in a officer's face (Speculation) the same as shooting at an officer and missing?  You could die from either one.

They reportedly put him in the car and reportedly took him out the other side for some reason (dont know why (spitting?), but we'll find out),   Get him on the ground with his head facing the other way and hold him until help arrived.

Kneeling on his neck clearly isnt the best way to do that, but it was a way keep him from spitting on anybody else.  He died from being restrained.   Clearly the officers fault, but was it murder.  The kneeling officer's past record will and should be part of this.

I think there will be jail time for them, there will be a lot of pressure to convict, but we'll see.  Dont be surprised if this doesnt go exactly how the nation wants and we get riots 2.0.     

Im not saying this is what happened, I dont know, but I believe there will be a lot more to this than what we currently know.

Whats important here, is we get to the truth, and the officers get what they should get.  Whatever the facts say that is and according to the law, not public opinion or  media frenzy.     

 

   

Putting aside your speculation, I'll offer an alternative: facts. At least one of the officers holding down Floyd got a "hobble" which would have effectively controlled Floyd without kneeling on him. He was overruled.

https://abc13.com/george-floyd-death-officers-police-minneapolis/6232838/

Here is the relevant part of the article, dealing with an alternative to kneeling on his neck for almost nine minutes:

The complaint against Lane, 37, notes that while he suggested to Chauvin that Floyd should be rolled over he "took no actions to assist Mr. Floyd, to change his position, or to reduce the force the officers were using against Mr. Floyd."

Kueng's complaint says the 26-year-old was positioned between Chauvin and Lane and could hear their comments. Thao, 34, was seen in the cellphone video standing near a crowd of bystanders, and his complaint says although he fetched a hobble restraint - designed to restrict the movement of a person in custody - from the squad car, "the officers decided not to use it and maintained their positions."


A hobble isnt going to prevent Floyd from spitting on anyone during the process IF spitting was the issue with him.   
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 05, 2020, 04:56:07 PM

A hobble isnt going to prevent Floyd from spitting on anyone during the process IF spitting was the issue with him.

This is getting into the area of science fiction. IF Floyd did spit on an officer, as you speculate; and if he did know he had covid, as you speculate; and if he did spit in the face of an officer, which you speculate; and if he told the officer he had covid, which you speculate; then putting him in a hobble would mean he mean he's have the ability to spit, yes. Maybe he'd even have gotten as high as the shin of an officer,maybe. Not optimal, but the alternative was killing him by kneeling on his neck for almost nine minutes, and ignoring repeated pleas that he couldn't breathe. I one breath (which you can have because no one is kneeling on your neck for almost nine minutes), you say that Chauvin was totally wrong. Yet you repeatedly try to spin scenarios- including this entirely fictional speculation- that somehow, Floyd deserved it, or brought it on himself. He didn't. The police had a safer alternative to restrain him; they went with a much more dangerous strategy, and killed him. 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 05, 2020, 05:35:35 PM

A hobble isnt going to prevent Floyd from spitting on anyone during the process IF spitting was the issue with him.

This is getting into the area of science fiction. IF Floyd did spit on an officer, as you speculate; and if he did know he had covid, as you speculate; and if he did spit in the face of an officer, which you speculate; and if he told the officer he had covid, which you speculate; then putting him in a hobble would mean he mean he's have the ability to spit, yes.

Thank you, so the hobble wouldnt have been effective.


Not optimal, but the alternative was killing him by kneeling on his neck for almost nine minutes, and ignoring repeated pleas that he couldn't breathe. I one breath (which you can have because no one is kneeling on your neck for almost nine minutes), you say that Chauvin was totally wrong.

Chauvin was wrong and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent.  Not sure I can make that any more clear.


 Yet you repeatedly try to spin scenarios- including this entirely fictional speculation- that somehow, Floyd deserved it, or brought it on himself. He didn't. The police had a safer alternative to restrain him; they went with a much more dangerous strategy, and killed him.

Ricky, we all saw what happened.  What happened before the video is important too.  Keep in mind your "fictional speculation" that nothing happened before is just that too.  These officers deserve to have their case heard no matter what you think.  It may help the officers, it may hurt them.   Jump to all the conclusions you want.  Whats important is what happened.  I think Ive been exceptionally clear that this is pure speculation and a possibility.   If you think these officers got to this sight and were hellbent on killing George Floyd, the media has raised you well.            



Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 05, 2020, 06:58:34 PM

A hobble isnt going to prevent Floyd from spitting on anyone during the process IF spitting was the issue with him.

This is getting into the area of science fiction. IF Floyd did spit on an officer, as you speculate; and if he did know he had covid, as you speculate; and if he did spit in the face of an officer, which you speculate; and if he told the officer he had covid, which you speculate; then putting him in a hobble would mean he mean he's have the ability to spit, yes.

Thank you, so the hobble wouldnt have been effective.


Not optimal, but the alternative was killing him by kneeling on his neck for almost nine minutes, and ignoring repeated pleas that he couldn't breathe. I one breath (which you can have because no one is kneeling on your neck for almost nine minutes), you say that Chauvin was totally wrong.

Chauvin was wrong and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent.  Not sure I can make that any more clear.


 Yet you repeatedly try to spin scenarios- including this entirely fictional speculation- that somehow, Floyd deserved it, or brought it on himself. He didn't. The police had a safer alternative to restrain him; they went with a much more dangerous strategy, and killed him.

Ricky, we all saw what happened.  What happened before the video is important too.  Keep in mind your "fictional speculation" that nothing happened before is just that too.  These officers deserve to have their case heard no matter what you think.  It may help the officers, it may hurt them.   Jump to all the conclusions you want.  Whats important is what happened.  I think Ive been exceptionally clear that this is pure speculation and a possibility.   If you think these officers got to this sight and were hellbent on killing George Floyd, the media has raised you well.            



If the officers had stood behind his head, which they easily could have done with the hobble, he could spit an ocean and not do any harm. After that, you again go into science fiction. Again, I read the words, but constantly see justifications for the officer's behavior, even going so far as creating scenarios out of an allegation and then spinning fantasies. Do I believe the officers should have their day in court? Please cite where I said they shouldn't; or when I called them names, or otherwise used disrespectful words. First, it's making up scenarios about what might have happened; now, it's making up things I never wrote. What happened before the video started? I posted this earlier, and now I'll re-post it. I found this easily. Maybe you should try doing some research, rather than making up scenarios out of nothing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDd5GlrgvsE

Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: scoremore on June 05, 2020, 07:19:22 PM
Interesting theories floating around.  Regardless of the circumstance no justification for what happened.  He was killed.  If he had COVID and was spitting on the officers that could also be construed as attempted murder.  Pretty serious offense in it's own right.  Maybe if that is the case they will reduce the charge.  Facts will come out at trial but the fake media won't report it if it doesn't fit the narrative.  Saw Goodell issuing an apology to the players.  For what?  Not listening?  Didn't they fund like 100 mil to help the cause? 

If they start kneeling during the national anthem again I'll be done with football permanently.  I have been a lifelong Packer fan but disrespecting the flag and our country is something I won't tolerate.  Protesting racial injustice is fine.  JUST DON"T  DISRESPECT OUR COUNTRY AND THE FLAG.  That's exactly what kneeling during the Anthem is.  Rodgers says it's not about that.  Well then do it another way.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 05, 2020, 07:38:55 PM
Interesting theories floating around.  Regardless of the circumstance no justification for what happened.  He was killed.  If he had COVID and was spitting on the officers that could also be construed as attempted murder.  Pretty serious offense in it's own right.  Maybe if that is the case they will reduce the charge.  Facts will come out at trial but the fake media won't report it if it doesn't fit the narrative.  Saw Goodell issuing an apology to the players.  For what?  Not listening?  Didn't they fund like 100 mil to help the cause? 

If they start kneeling during the national anthem again I'll be done with football permanently.  I have been a lifelong Packer fan but disrespecting the flag and our country is something I won't tolerate.  Protesting racial injustice is fine.  JUST DON"T  DISRESPECT OUR COUNTRY AND THE FLAG.  That's exactly what kneeling during the Anthem is.  Rodgers says it's not about that.  Well then do it another way.

Agree 100% on the anthem.  He had COVID it was in his autopsy, a key is to whether he knew it, and if he told the officers. 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 05, 2020, 09:50:03 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8cUa6JMVC8
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Bignutz on June 06, 2020, 04:08:35 AM
Trump is president in name only. He is facing a major crisis, and failing. For the second time. First Covid, now public outrage. What is needed is leadership. Sad.

He was "inspecting the bunker"? The timing is certainly interesting. And, no, the President doesn't go where the Secret Service goes; the Secret Service goes where he goes. Again, lack of leadership. Sad.

We can get into the weeds on this one, but the President decided it was a good time to show he could "dominate", and away he went for a photo-op. Yes, people are routinely re-routed during Presidential movements; but on short notice, and using troops to clear an area where there was a peaceful protest going on? For what purpose? To show who was in charge, and that protests will not be tolerated. Scary. Was tear gas used? I addressed that earlier. Rubber bullets in that particular situation? Don't know.

https://wtop.com/dc/2020/06/dc-george-floyd-protests-day-4/

Unemployment was indeed down. Good. However, Obama managed to cut the black unemployment rate in half, from about 16% to about 8%.. Trump lowered it another two points.

https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000006

As far as deaths by police officers, where did you get that info, because it is contrary to reality:

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

The charts are damning, but here is an excerpt from the article linked above:

Fig. 2 displays the ratio of lifetime risk for each racial–ethnic group relative to risk for whites for both men and women. Note that a rate ratio of 1 indicates equality in mortality risk relative to whites. The highest levels of inequality in mortality risk are experienced by black men. Black men are about 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police over the life course than are white men. Black women are about 1.4 times more likely to be killed by police than are white women. Although risks are estimated with less precision for American Indian/Alaska Native men and women than for other groups, we show that they face a higher lifetime risk of being killed by police than do whites. American Indian men are between 1.2 and 1.7 times more likely to be killed by police than are white men, and American Indian women are between 1.1 and 2.1 times more likely to be killed by police than are white women. Latino men are between 1.3 and 1.4 times more likely to be killed by police than are white men, but Latina women are between 12% and 23% less likely to be killed by police than are white women. Both Asian/Pacific Islander men and women are more than 50% less likely to be killed by police than are white men and women, respectively.



failing? no

https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/351527


It's not about Covid or the riots, It's about the election.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Bignutz on June 06, 2020, 04:16:36 AM
Interesting theories floating around.  Regardless of the circumstance no justification for what happened.  He was killed.  If he had COVID and was spitting on the officers that could also be construed as attempted murder.  Pretty serious offense in it's own right.  Maybe if that is the case they will reduce the charge.  Facts will come out at trial but the fake media won't report it if it doesn't fit the narrative.  Saw Goodell issuing an apology to the players.  For what?  Not listening?  Didn't they fund like 100 mil to help the cause? 

If they start kneeling during the national anthem again I'll be done with football permanently.  I have been a lifelong Packer fan but disrespecting the flag and our country is something I won't tolerate.  Protesting racial injustice is fine.  JUST DON"T  DISRESPECT OUR COUNTRY AND THE FLAG.  That's exactly what kneeling during the Anthem is.  Rodgers says it's not about that.  Well then do it another way.

I agree with you. Football was always a way to escape from personal problems, politics, worries etc. This crap has ruined it for a lot of people
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 06, 2020, 08:35:23 AM
This particular issue has been  deadhorse). There is no sense in talking about this again. In fact, it seems this thread has run it's useful life. Perhaps it should be put to rest, along with the other political thread that was begun to be hopeful, but was hijacked for other purposes. I want to offer my personal thanks to Mark for letting us vent and exchange ideas on this political issue; especially on a site that I've always used to "escape from personal problems, politics, worries, etc. This crap has ruined it for a lot of people"

But, a final thought. If a player kneels during the anthem, and gets booed by the crowd, I'll immediately assume they're booing the anthem and the flag. Because of course they are. And nothing will dissuade me from that belief.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 06, 2020, 10:41:45 AM

But, a final thought. If a player kneels during the anthem, and gets booed by the crowd, I'll immediately assume they're booing the anthem and the flag. Because of course they are. And nothing will dissuade me from that belief.

People arent going to boo during the anthem, if they boo it will be before or more likely after.   And people with their heads stuck in the mud will think they are booing the anthem.

It would be like Brett Favre coming back to Green Bay while playing for Minnesota and thinking they are booing Brad Childress.   
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 06, 2020, 11:30:18 AM

But, a final thought. If a player kneels during the anthem, and gets booed by the crowd, I'll immediately assume they're booing the anthem and the flag. Because of course they are. And nothing will dissuade me from that belief.

People arent going to boo during the anthem, if they boo it will be before or more likely after.   And people with their heads stuck in the mud will think they are booing the anthem.

It would be like Brett Favre coming back to Green Bay while playing for Minnesota and thinking they are booing Brad Childress.

Wrong. Any booing would be against the anthem and flag, and disrespectful to our troops.


Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Premontre1969 on June 06, 2020, 06:42:47 PM
I completely understand people wanting politics out of the game.

But you can’t deny there’s a strong argument to be made against racial injustice and police brutality. In my lifetime I’ve seen our nation evolve to become much more inclusive and intolerant of racism. We see this in the public demonstrations themselves, which are generally more white than black. We know there is much more to do. Will we take positive and concrete steps in the way we teach our youth and achieve better managed law enforcement?

My hope is that we will be a better society moving forward in brotherhood, mutual respect and a better future for the black race. I pray that race becomes a non-issue.

This is the time for action so that we can achieve true progress, not at a football game. To say that protests during the anthem “was never about the flag” is obtuse on its face. We honor the flag because it represents our guiding values and principles, freedom and justice for all. The flag represents our constitution and that’s what powers our ability to right the wrongs of racial injustice, of crimes committed against our constitutional guarantees. Protesting at that moment is inappropriate and despicable to the sensibilities of many Americans. Yes, you have a constitutional right to do so but it will stink badly to the majority of your audience.

Sportswriters highjack this issue for click bait. Trump highjacks it for political gain. I support efforts made for social justice. Now is the time to achieve progress, just not during the anthem. If players want to make a statement during a game I hope they do it before or after we honor the flag. But please don’t highjack that moment to do it.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: marklawrence on June 06, 2020, 09:24:30 PM
Police shoot blacks twice as often as whites.

However, police shoot blacks who are committing violent felonies 20% less often than they shoot white who are committing violent felonies.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 06, 2020, 10:20:04 PM
Police shoot blacks twice as often as whites.

However, police shoot blacks who are committing violent felonies 20% less often than they shoot white who are committing violent felonies.

Police account for less than 1% of black male shootings.  Can that be improved? YES,  but it gives perspective of where the problems are, and not a bunch of media driven BS we are seeing. 23 shooting deaths in Chicago over 2 days last week.  Nothing but crickets from the media.

Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: scoremore on June 07, 2020, 07:37:23 AM
Yes GM.  What is needed in the inner cities is increase law enforcement.  Also allow people to own guns to defend themselves.  Fact is liberal city mayors refuse to clean up the streets in these areas.  No law and order you can't have peace and prosperity.  Really what is needed also improve the educational system.  They have tried economic incentives etc but it won't work if you are not safe to operate a business.  The liberal answer is to defund the police and hand cuff them.  The exact opposite of what should be done.  I do sympathize with the movement but the anger is misplaced.  It won't change until the streets are cleaned up and people can feel safe.  Oh well my 2 cents.  Black people need to vote for change and stop electing these corrupt brain dead city officials.  Just throwing money at the problem won't work either.  Safe streets and improve the schools.  Churches are also important and focus on family. 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Fargofootball on June 07, 2020, 09:39:12 AM
Are people of color having their civil rights violated by police more often than whites?  Has it always been this way?

If a report of a Soviet KGB officer kneeling on the neck of a citizen of the USSR causing his death and the authorities responded with " he had complications that led to his death", then a video is released showing what we could all see, the officer causing slow painful death by his actions, would we think all the same thoughts presented in this thread?

It would be likely we would blame the soviet  SYSTEM for it, just as the protesters today blaming systematic racism in our justice system.

Would we suggest more guns, unsafe streets, or blaming  it on the violence people committed among themselves? How does that keep people's civil rights from being violated by the police?

That is what the protest is about, That is what Black Lives Matter is about.

I'm a 66 year old white man from Cedar Rapids, Iowa and I am the change and is sorry it took so long to understand what the BLM movement was about. 







Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on June 07, 2020, 12:33:43 PM
Yes GM.  What is needed in the inner cities is increase law enforcement.  Also allow people to own guns to defend themselves. 

More people were killed in Chicago in a year than in the entire UK, where it is very difficult for anyone to own more than a shotgun for things like pheasant. The police in the UK do not normally carry guns (there are special firearms units, but their guns are normally locked away). Perhaps the answer for the USA is less guns, not more.

Forget the old quote "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" because it is misleading. Just owning a gun increases the odds that you will kill someone, especially in moments of high emotion.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 07, 2020, 12:43:45 PM
Thank you Fargofootball. The first step toward solving a problem is admitting you have a problem. Then, try listening to people who have a different viewpoint. And try to have an open mind. The complaints from the black community about heavy handed police tactics is not something new; it's been going on for decades. Either this is a mass delusion spanning generations, an urban myth, or a fact. As so many on here deny anything is wrong; or say something is wrong, but it's only a few "bad apples"; or yes, it's not good, but look at these stats about how bad these people are, and how it's part of their culture. All of these have been put forward on this thread. And deny you are racist, or have any racist thoughts, and then, to be fair, and to look at this from all sides, because we have to be fair and get all the "facts"; and if necessary, just make things up and call it "speculation" cite cherry picked stats without context or with the ability to truly analyze what these stats represent. And deny, deny, deny that you are racist.

OneTwoSixFive, saying that more guns will solve gun violence is like saying that more cars will solve traffic jams. Also, seriously, if BLM protesters were marching as heavily armed and armored as the guys going to state capitals who were demanding their states re-open immediately, does anyone think the response of the police would have been as calm and non-confrontational?
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: scoremore on June 07, 2020, 02:00:15 PM
Yes GM.  What is needed in the inner cities is increase law enforcement.  Also allow people to own guns to defend themselves. 

More people were killed in Chicago in a year than in the entire UK, where it is very difficult for anyone to own more than a shotgun for things like pheasant. The police in the UK do not normally carry guns (there are special firearms units, but their guns are normally locked away). Perhaps the answer for the USA is less guns, not more.

Forget the old quote "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" because it is misleading. Just owning a gun increases the odds that you will kill someone, especially in moments of high emotion.

Your argument is flawed.  When implementing gun control law abiding citizens can't own them.  Do you think criminals care?  No so you have criminals with guns and law abiding citizens defenseless.  Highest crime areas all have strict gun control measures in place.  I get what you are saying and makes sense in theory but it's not the way it works in the real world. 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 07, 2020, 03:14:25 PM
Your argument is flawed.  When implementing gun control law abiding citizens can't own them.  Do you think criminals care?  No so you have criminals with guns and law abiding citizens defenseless.  Highest crime areas all have strict gun control measures in place.  I get what you are saying and makes sense in theory but it's not the way it works in the real world.

Your arguments are incorrect.

https://lawcenter.giffords.org/facts/gun-violence-statistics/

New York City? Tough gun laws. https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/opinion/commentary/why-new-york-has-such-low-rate-gun-death.html

Chicago? https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/the-myths-and-truths-about-chicagos-guns-and-murder-rate/167390/

Texas? https://www.politifact.com/article/2019/sep/06/fact-checking-figures-about-gun-violence-texas/

Finally, is there a correlation between gun ownership and gun deaths? https://www.safehome.org/resources/gun-laws-and-deaths/

Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on June 07, 2020, 03:50:55 PM

OneTwoSixFive, saying that more guns will solve gun violence is like saying that more cars will solve traffic jams.

Er, no, I was saying the opposite.
Taking your analogy, it would be LESS cars cause fewer traffic jams (which they will). I was replying to Scoremore who (indirectly) advocates more gun ownership, I think the sheer number of guns and their availability is a part of the USA's problems..............but it's hard to change things when you have your Bill of Rights 2nd amendment.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: RT on June 07, 2020, 05:42:25 PM
Thank you Fargofootball. The first step toward solving a problem is admitting you have a problem. Then, try listening to people who have a different viewpoint. And try to have an open mind. The complaints from the black community about heavy handed police tactics is not something new; it's been going on for decades. Either this is a mass delusion spanning generations, an urban myth, or a fact. As so many on here deny anything is wrong; or say something is wrong, but it's only a few "bad apples"; or yes, it's not good, but look at these stats about how bad these people are, and how it's part of their culture. All of these have been put forward on this thread. And deny you are racist, or have any racist thoughts, and then, to be fair, and to look at this from all sides, because we have to be fair and get all the "facts"; and if necessary, just make things up and call it "speculation" cite cherry picked stats without context or with the ability to truly analyze what these stats represent. And deny, deny, deny that you are racist.

OneTwoSixFive, saying that more guns will solve gun violence is like saying that more cars will solve traffic jams. Also, seriously, if BLM protesters were marching as heavily armed and armored as the guys going to state capitals who were demanding their states re-open immediately, does anyone think the response of the police would have been as calm and non-confrontational?

You do love to wheel the sword of calling people a racist around.

Racism definition - prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

As a child I knew many that fit the description, today I do not know a single person that thinks their 'race is superior'. As a child who's mother was a 'half-breed' and gave birth to 6 'mutts' (my grandmother was a full blooded Cherokee), I saw more than my share of prejudice. As much as the left try's to fan the flames of hatred, the data does not support their claims.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Larry+Elder+leaves+The+Rubin+Report+speechless.&docid=13888763334050&mid=E24B41D532EC9361C64BE24B41D532EC9361C64B&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 07, 2020, 06:27:08 PM
Despite the media fanning the flames of this    incident, and people burning down cities,  there is little, if any evidence of a racial crime.    Police brutality - Yes,
 Racially motivated?- questionable at this point.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Fargofootball on June 07, 2020, 06:43:09 PM
Thank you Fargofootball. The first step toward solving a problem is admitting you have a problem. Then, try listening to people who have a different viewpoint. And try to have an open mind. The complaints from the black community about heavy handed police tactics is not something new; it's been going on for decades. Either this is a mass delusion spanning generations, an urban myth, or a fact. As so many on here deny anything is wrong; or say something is wrong, but it's only a few "bad apples"; or yes, it's not good, but look at these stats about how bad these people are, and how it's part of their culture. All of these have been put forward on this thread. And deny you are racist, or have any racist thoughts, and then, to be fair, and to look at this from all sides, because we have to be fair and get all the "facts"; and if necessary, just make things up and call it "speculation" cite cherry picked stats without context or with the ability to truly analyze what these stats represent. And deny, deny, deny that you are racist.

OneTwoSixFive, saying that more guns will solve gun violence is like saying that more cars will solve traffic jams. Also, seriously, if BLM protesters were marching as heavily armed and armored as the guys going to state capitals who were demanding their states re-open immediately, does anyone think the response of the police would have been as calm and non-confrontational?

You do love to wheel the sword of calling people a racist around.

Racism definition - prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

As a child I knew many that fit the description, today I do not know a single person that thinks their 'race is superior'. As a child who's mother was a 'half-breed' and gave birth to 6 'mutts' (my grandmother was a full blooded Cherokee), I saw more than my share of prejudice. As much as the left try's to fan the flames of hatred, the data does not support their claims.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Larry+Elder+leaves+The+Rubin+Report+speechless.&docid=13888763334050&mid=E24B41D532EC9361C64BE24B41D532EC9361C64B&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

The dictionary also defines racism as the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

I also can't say  I know anyone who says they are superior to others, but watching the march of white men carrying torches chanting " Jews will not replace us" is as racist as it gets. Won't quote stats or refer vids on this one, I'll just refer to Nazi Germany to support my claim.

Am glad if you are not facing racism, but it does abound in America in many forms.

PS
This is the 3rd post I've placed on this site and zero other sites about something other than football.

I understand why the Mods make some of the choices to shut down threads at times as just these 3 posts have wore me out trying put words to meaning and not be offensive doing it.

I wish it was my last but I will continue to speak out rather than sit on the sideline in quiet support. 








Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: scoremore on June 07, 2020, 06:58:33 PM
https://www.zerohedge.com/economics/minneapolis-city-council-disband-citys-police-department

Just another twist to the story.  This is where it all began.  They looted, rioted, and burned the city.  The progressive liberals who are in charge decided to disband the police dept?  Anyone on the left care to defend this action?  The insanity is beyond the pale.  BTW...4 cops who were involved with Floyd.  White, Asian, Latino, and Black.   All 4 are now being charged.  Defunding and disbanding the police department is the exact opposite of what should happen.  The best way to help those poor inner city people (not just black) is to make their streets safe.  Not turning a blind eye to the problem.  Certainly not declaring war on the the Police.  Glad I don't live in Minneapolis.  Hey they are all Vikings fans anyway so screw em ;D
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Fargofootball on June 07, 2020, 07:06:58 PM
Despite the media fanning the flames of this    incident, and people burning down cities,  there is little, if any evidence of a racial crime.    Police brutality - Yes,
 Racially motivated?- questionable at this point.

Please do tell me how you define a racial crime or when police brutality is racially motivated?
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: scoremore on June 07, 2020, 07:32:17 PM
Fargo you are inferring that the cops behavior was racially motivated.  There is no evidence that I have seen to that affect.  4 cops involved (White, Asian, Latino, and Black).  Anyone of them could have stopped Floyd's death.  You see a white guy on a black guy's neck so it's automatically racially motivated?  Maybe it was but again none of us really know.  Agree with GM police brutality for sure but that's as far as you can go with certainty.  There is more to the story always is.  The truth will come out eventually on what happened and why until then have to reserve judgement.  You may not like this answer but it's the truth.  We simply don't know if it was racially motivated or not. 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: RT on June 07, 2020, 08:07:18 PM
https://www.facebook.com/mrctv/videos/292591268796378/
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 07, 2020, 10:27:40 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aZ205Muu8A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL_IX8yX_JU
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 07, 2020, 10:46:06 PM
https://www.zerohedge.com/economics/minneapolis-city-council-disband-citys-police-department

Just another twist to the story.  This is where it all began.  They looted, rioted, and burned the city.  The progressive liberals who are in charge decided to disband the police dept?  Anyone on the left care to defend this action?  The insanity is beyond the pale.  BTW...4 cops who were involved with Floyd.  White, Asian, Latino, and Black.   All 4 are now being charged.  Defunding and disbanding the police department is the exact opposite of what should happen.  The best way to help those poor inner city people (not just black) is to make their streets safe.  Not turning a blind eye to the problem.  Certainly not declaring war on the the Police.  Glad I don't live in Minneapolis.  Hey they are all Vikings fans anyway so screw em ;D

Who is "They" as in "They looted, rioted and burned the city." First, check out some videos on looters- you might be surprised by what you see. Second, there were scattered cases of looting- and those people should have been arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But the cities are not burning; and from what I've seen, the incidence of looting seems to be diminishing, because protesters and police are both trying to stop that violence: https://www.wsj.com/articles/at-george-floyd-protests-police-and-protesters-try-to-stop-looting-11591377543

Right now, the city council, as per the article you linked, said they don't know what exactly they are going to do; right now, it's rhetoric, and they are going to be looking for answers, and trying to find a better way of policing the city. How will that look? We don't know. The council members said the same thing. But of course, since it's the police that might be impacted, we can't wait and see. In the case of George Floyd, though, there were lots of posters who were more than willing to cast around for anything that would make him look bad, including making up scenarios based on pure speculation.

Time to take a deep breath, take a look at what is actually happening rather than panicking and falling prey to irrational fear.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 07, 2020, 10:50:19 PM
https://www.facebook.com/mrctv/videos/292591268796378/

Run by L. Brent Bozell, here is something found when you google the site name:

The Media Research Center (MRC) is an American politically conservative content analysis group based in Reston, Virginia, founded in 1987 by L. Brent Bozell III. It characterizes itself as a media watchdog, whereas the Columbia Journalism Review considers it "propaganda clothed as critique".

Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 07, 2020, 10:54:49 PM

OneTwoSixFive, saying that more guns will solve gun violence is like saying that more cars will solve traffic jams.

Er, no, I was saying the opposite.
Taking your analogy, it would be LESS cars cause fewer traffic jams (which they will). I was replying to Scoremore who (indirectly) advocates more gun ownership, I think the sheer number of guns and their availability is a part of the USA's problems..............but it's hard to change things when you have your Bill of Rights 2nd amendment.

Sorry. It's not the Second Amendment, but people's abuse of this right that is causing problems. For years, owning a hunting rifle was enough for almost everyone. Now, it seems there is a small segment of society that wants to have their own armory filled with military grade weapons. For what purpose? This is not an argument that you can't have them. The question is why?
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 07, 2020, 11:09:33 PM
You do love to wheel the sword of calling people a racist around.

Racism definition - prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

As a child I knew many that fit the description, today I do not know a single person that thinks their 'race is superior'. As a child who's mother was a 'half-breed' and gave birth to 6 'mutts' (my grandmother was a full blooded Cherokee), I saw more than my share of prejudice. As much as the left try's to fan the flames of hatred, the data does not support their claims.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Larry+Elder+leaves+The+Rubin+Report+speechless.&docid=13888763334050&mid=E24B41D532EC9361C64BE24B41D532EC9361C64B&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

No RT, I don't "love to wheel the sword of calling people a racist around." I find it distasteful but necessary. If someone writes something that is racist, and defends those statements, what should I do? I've decided that speaking plainly against what I perceive as racist is something that needs to be done. And "The Rubin Report" is an avowed right wing channel devoted to a specific viewpoint. A bit more on this channel:

Search Results
Featured snippet from the web
Blaze Media is an American conservative media company. It was founded in 2018 as a result of a merger between TheBlaze and CRTV LLC.


This is the problem. We don't watch the same programs; we don't listen to the same commentators; we don't talk to each other. We take our stands, gather the facts that we believe will support our position, and ignore anything that might shake our core beliefs. Now, of course, this is only the Left that does this; the Right are logical, sensible and carefully consider all viewpoints before taking a stand.  ::)
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Fargofootball on June 08, 2020, 03:15:55 AM
Fargo you are inferring that the cops behavior was racially motivated.  There is no evidence that I have seen to that affect.  4 cops involved (White, Asian, Latino, and Black).  Anyone of them could have stopped Floyd's death.  You see a white guy on a black guy's neck so it's automatically racially motivated?  Maybe it was but again none of us really know.  Agree with GM police brutality for sure but that's as far as you can go with certainty.  There is more to the story always is.  The truth will come out eventually on what happened and why until then have to reserve judgement.  You may not like this answer but it's the truth.  We simply don't know if it was racially motivated or not.

I do suspect some racial motivation in what happened. I don't believe this would of happened if his skin was white. His boss even thinks he is a bit racist. (see below)
Again I ask, Please do tell me how you define a racial crime or when police brutality is racially motivated?

The races of the other cops mean little as 2 were rookies (both started in Dec 2019) and voiced concerns for Floyd but were ordered twice by the 19 YR veteran  to just wait till the ambulance arrives.
But they should have stopped it.

I worked for the public for 30 yrs as a bus driver (I trained all the drivers in operation procedures) . If I had 17 complaints filed against me in 19 yrs, like Chauvin, I would no longer be trusted and if they were able likely fired. I would not be allowed to instruct anyone if still employed regardless how good I was.


Chauvin was also given citations. From:
https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/what-personnel-files-show-for-4-officers-charged-in-george-floyds-death/89-e2fa248a-866c-4500-a3dd-ac12712e0120

 Files show he won two medals of valor, one in 2006 for being part of a group of officers who opened fire on a stabbing suspect who pointed a shotgun at them, and another in 2008 for a domestic violence incident in which Chauvin broke down a bathroom door and shot a suspect in the stomach. 

He also won medals of commendation in 2008 after he and his partner tackled a fleeing suspect who had a pistol in his hand, and in 2009 for single-handedly apprehending a group of gang members while working as an off-duty security guard at the El Nuevo Rodeo, a Minneapolis nightclub.

Since his arrest, the former owner of the club, Maya Santamaria, said Chauvin and Floyd both worked there as security guards at various times but that she wasn’t sure if they had known one another. She said Chauvin was unnecessarily aggressive on nights when the club had a black clientele, quelling fights by dousing the crowd with pepper spray and calling in several police squad cars as backup, a tactic she called “overkill.”

From : https://apnews.com/69beaad97dcea2dce6c2184e0f5b5e4e

She said Chauvin got along well with the club’s Latino regulars, but his tactics toward unruly customers on what she referred to as “African American” nights led her to speak to him about it.

“I told him I thought this is unnecessary to be pepper-sprayed. The knee-jerk reaction of being afraid, it seemed overkill,” Santamaria said. “It was a concern and I did voice my opinion, but police officers have a way of justifying what they do.”

She said she was shocked to see the video of Chauvin pinning Floyd to the ground with his knee, even as Floyd complained that he couldn’t breathe.

“I thought he would have more of a conscience,” she said. “Even if he is a bit of racist, he’s a human being. … At what point does your humanity overpower your racial bias?”

So now we know more than we did. I'm comfortable with my stance.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on June 08, 2020, 07:21:49 AM

OneTwoSixFive, saying that more guns will solve gun violence is like saying that more cars will solve traffic jams.

Er, no, I was saying the opposite.
Taking your analogy, it would be LESS cars cause fewer traffic jams (which they will). I was replying to Scoremore who (indirectly) advocates more gun ownership, I think the sheer number of guns and their availability is a part of the USA's problems..............but it's hard to change things when you have your Bill of Rights 2nd amendment.

Sorry. It's not the Second Amendment, but people's abuse of this right that is causing problems. For years, owning a hunting rifle was enough for almost everyone. Now, it seems there is a small segment of society that wants to have their own armory filled with military grade weapons. For what purpose? This is not an argument that you can't have them. The question is why?

I'm about as sorry as you are Ricky (ie not sorry). The 2nd Amendment is an empowerment to people to own firearms. How can you say out of one side of your mouth that they have that right and then complain out of the other side when some people abuse it..............that is statistically bound to happen, people being as individual as they are.

Living in a society largely without firearms (as I do), doesn't mean you won't get punched, stuck with a knife, or hit with a hammer, but it is a little tougher (for most of us) to kill or maim up close and in your face, than it is to do the same with no more than a twitch of your finger. Guns are dangerous, most especially when wielded by people who are sociopathic, or not very stable, or under the effect of drink/drugs, or in a highly emotional state.

Anyway, I never meant for this to turn into an extended second discussion, separate from the main thread, so apologies for that.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 08, 2020, 07:51:22 AM
Packers related on the current issue of the day:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/06/08/billy-turner-no-nervousness-in-packers-conversations-about-racism/
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: RT on June 08, 2020, 09:02:22 AM
https://www.facebook.com/mrctv/videos/292591268796378/

Run by L. Brent Bozell, here is something found when you google the site name:

The Media Research Center (MRC) is an American politically conservative content analysis group based in Reston, Virginia, founded in 1987 by L. Brent Bozell III. It characterizes itself as a media watchdog, whereas the Columbia Journalism Review considers it "propaganda clothed as critique".

Did you actually watch it?
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 08, 2020, 10:12:17 AM
Fargo you are inferring that the cops behavior was racially motivated.  There is no evidence that I have seen to that affect.  4 cops involved (White, Asian, Latino, and Black).  Anyone of them could have stopped Floyd's death.  You see a white guy on a black guy's neck so it's automatically racially motivated?  Maybe it was but again none of us really know.  Agree with GM police brutality for sure but that's as far as you can go with certainty.  There is more to the story always is.  The truth will come out eventually on what happened and why until then have to reserve judgement.  You may not like this answer but it's the truth.  We simply don't know if it was racially motivated or not.

I do suspect some racial motivation in what happened. I don't believe this would of happened if his skin was white. His boss even thinks he is a bit racist. (see below)
Again I ask, Please do tell me how you define a racial crime or when police brutality is racially motivated?

The races of the other cops mean little as 2 were rookies (both started in Dec 2019) and voiced concerns for Floyd but were ordered twice by the 19 YR veteran  to just wait till the ambulance arrives.
But they should have stopped it.

I worked for the public for 30 yrs as a bus driver (I trained all the drivers in operation procedures) . If I had 17 complaints filed against me in 19 yrs, like Chauvin, I would no longer be trusted and if they were able likely fired. I would not be allowed to instruct anyone if still employed regardless how good I was.


Chauvin was also given citations. From:
https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/what-personnel-files-show-for-4-officers-charged-in-george-floyds-death/89-e2fa248a-866c-4500-a3dd-ac12712e0120

 Files show he won two medals of valor, one in 2006 for being part of a group of officers who opened fire on a stabbing suspect who pointed a shotgun at them, and another in 2008 for a domestic violence incident in which Chauvin broke down a bathroom door and shot a suspect in the stomach. 

He also won medals of commendation in 2008 after he and his partner tackled a fleeing suspect who had a pistol in his hand, and in 2009 for single-handedly apprehending a group of gang members while working as an off-duty security guard at the El Nuevo Rodeo, a Minneapolis nightclub.

Since his arrest, the former owner of the club, Maya Santamaria, said Chauvin and Floyd both worked there as security guards at various times but that she wasn’t sure if they had known one another. She said Chauvin was unnecessarily aggressive on nights when the club had a black clientele, quelling fights by dousing the crowd with pepper spray and calling in several police squad cars as backup, a tactic she called “overkill.”

From : https://apnews.com/69beaad97dcea2dce6c2184e0f5b5e4e

She said Chauvin got along well with the club’s Latino regulars, but his tactics toward unruly customers on what she referred to as “African American” nights led her to speak to him about it.

“I told him I thought this is unnecessary to be pepper-sprayed. The knee-jerk reaction of being afraid, it seemed overkill,” Santamaria said. “It was a concern and I did voice my opinion, but police officers have a way of justifying what they do.”

She said she was shocked to see the video of Chauvin pinning Floyd to the ground with his knee, even as Floyd complained that he couldn’t breathe.

“I thought he would have more of a conscience,” she said. “Even if he is a bit of racist, he’s a human being. … At what point does your humanity overpower your racial bias?”

So now we know more than we did. I'm comfortable with my stance.

There's nothing here, you MAY? have shown some proof of being a bad cop, or even bad person, that doesnt prove this was a racist killing.  You need to show some social  media racial stuff he posted,  show he was part of a hate group, left some racial thing at the scene of the crime, or something of the like.   You can say if Floyd was white this wouldnt have happened, can you prove that??  NO,     As stated, at this point this being a racial crime is questionable.           
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 08, 2020, 10:44:19 AM
Packers related on the current issue of the day:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/06/08/billy-turner-no-nervousness-in-packers-conversations-about-racism/

Sounds great, the NFL's issue with racism and curbing it isnt a problem for me.   If the Packers want to tackle racism, go for it.

This issue comes when you hijack the anthem and flag.  kneeling is no different when the anthem comes on some clown comes out of the tunnel on a unicycle and juggling tennis balls with a spotlight on him.  Would you support that??    Its disrespectful, IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT THE CAUSE IS.   its wrong, and kneeling for a cause is going to backfire again.

If the NFL wants to hold a 20 minute BLM pep rally before/after the anthem or at halftime,  GO FOR IT.   After the looting of the cities, Middle America isnt going to go for the trampling of the flag again and Godell is miscalculating if he thinks getting all these players on board right now is going to do it.  IMO. 

Respect for that flag should come before any social cause you or I can think of. 



   



   
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Fargofootball on June 08, 2020, 11:57:11 AM
Fargo you are inferring that the cops behavior was racially motivated.  There is no evidence that I have seen to that affect.  4 cops involved (White, Asian, Latino, and Black).  Anyone of them could have stopped Floyd's death.  You see a white guy on a black guy's neck so it's automatically racially motivated?  Maybe it was but again none of us really know.  Agree with GM police brutality for sure but that's as far as you can go with certainty.  There is more to the story always is.  The truth will come out eventually on what happened and why until then have to reserve judgement.  You may not like this answer but it's the truth.  We simply don't know if it was racially motivated or not.

I do suspect some racial motivation in what happened. I don't believe this would of happened if his skin was white. His boss even thinks he is a bit racist. (see below)
Again I ask, Please do tell me how you define a racial crime or when police brutality is racially motivated?

The races of the other cops mean little as 2 were rookies (both started in Dec 2019) and voiced concerns for Floyd but were ordered twice by the 19 YR veteran  to just wait till the ambulance arrives.
But they should have stopped it.

I worked for the public for 30 yrs as a bus driver (I trained all the drivers in operation procedures) . If I had 17 complaints filed against me in 19 yrs, like Chauvin, I would no longer be trusted and if they were able likely fired. I would not be allowed to instruct anyone if still employed regardless how good I was.


Chauvin was also given citations. From:
https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/what-personnel-files-show-for-4-officers-charged-in-george-floyds-death/89-e2fa248a-866c-4500-a3dd-ac12712e0120

 Files show he won two medals of valor, one in 2006 for being part of a group of officers who opened fire on a stabbing suspect who pointed a shotgun at them, and another in 2008 for a domestic violence incident in which Chauvin broke down a bathroom door and shot a suspect in the stomach. 

He also won medals of commendation in 2008 after he and his partner tackled a fleeing suspect who had a pistol in his hand, and in 2009 for single-handedly apprehending a group of gang members while working as an off-duty security guard at the El Nuevo Rodeo, a Minneapolis nightclub.

Since his arrest, the former owner of the club, Maya Santamaria, said Chauvin and Floyd both worked there as security guards at various times but that she wasn’t sure if they had known one another. She said Chauvin was unnecessarily aggressive on nights when the club had a black clientele, quelling fights by dousing the crowd with pepper spray and calling in several police squad cars as backup, a tactic she called “overkill.”

From : https://apnews.com/69beaad97dcea2dce6c2184e0f5b5e4e

She said Chauvin got along well with the club’s Latino regulars, but his tactics toward unruly customers on what she referred to as “African American” nights led her to speak to him about it.

“I told him I thought this is unnecessary to be pepper-sprayed. The knee-jerk reaction of being afraid, it seemed overkill,” Santamaria said. “It was a concern and I did voice my opinion, but police officers have a way of justifying what they do.”

She said she was shocked to see the video of Chauvin pinning Floyd to the ground with his knee, even as Floyd complained that he couldn’t breathe.

“I thought he would have more of a conscience,” she said. “Even if he is a bit of racist, he’s a human being. … At what point does your humanity overpower your racial bias?”

So now we know more than we did. I'm comfortable with my stance.

There's nothing here, you MAY? have shown some proof of being a bad cop, or even bad person, that doesnt prove this was a racist killing.  You need to show some social  media racial stuff he posted,  show he was part of a hate group, left some racial thing at the scene of the crime, or something of the like.   You can say if Floyd was white this wouldnt have happened, can you prove that??  NO,     As stated, at this point this being a racial crime is questionable.           

Thanks for your response.
I'm thankful you feel I may have shown something.  I won't  chant slogans, claim it's all some right wing, left wing or media conspiracy, but try to get to the truth as best as I can.
I put stock in what  Maya Santamaria had to say even if others don't.  As his boss she addressed the situation with him.
I feel  that is a piece of "You need to show some social  media racial stuff he posted,  show he was part of a hate group, left some racial thing at the scene of the crime, or something of the like. "


Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 08, 2020, 12:03:11 PM
Fargo you are inferring that the cops behavior was racially motivated.  There is no evidence that I have seen to that affect.  4 cops involved (White, Asian, Latino, and Black).  Anyone of them could have stopped Floyd's death.  You see a white guy on a black guy's neck so it's automatically racially motivated?  Maybe it was but again none of us really know.  Agree with GM police brutality for sure but that's as far as you can go with certainty.  There is more to the story always is.  The truth will come out eventually on what happened and why until then have to reserve judgement.  You may not like this answer but it's the truth.  We simply don't know if it was racially motivated or not.

I do suspect some racial motivation in what happened. I don't believe this would of happened if his skin was white. His boss even thinks he is a bit racist. (see below)
Again I ask, Please do tell me how you define a racial crime or when police brutality is racially motivated?

The races of the other cops mean little as 2 were rookies (both started in Dec 2019) and voiced concerns for Floyd but were ordered twice by the 19 YR veteran  to just wait till the ambulance arrives.
But they should have stopped it.

I worked for the public for 30 yrs as a bus driver (I trained all the drivers in operation procedures) . If I had 17 complaints filed against me in 19 yrs, like Chauvin, I would no longer be trusted and if they were able likely fired. I would not be allowed to instruct anyone if still employed regardless how good I was.


Chauvin was also given citations. From:
https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/what-personnel-files-show-for-4-officers-charged-in-george-floyds-death/89-e2fa248a-866c-4500-a3dd-ac12712e0120

 Files show he won two medals of valor, one in 2006 for being part of a group of officers who opened fire on a stabbing suspect who pointed a shotgun at them, and another in 2008 for a domestic violence incident in which Chauvin broke down a bathroom door and shot a suspect in the stomach. 

He also won medals of commendation in 2008 after he and his partner tackled a fleeing suspect who had a pistol in his hand, and in 2009 for single-handedly apprehending a group of gang members while working as an off-duty security guard at the El Nuevo Rodeo, a Minneapolis nightclub.

Since his arrest, the former owner of the club, Maya Santamaria, said Chauvin and Floyd both worked there as security guards at various times but that she wasn’t sure if they had known one another. She said Chauvin was unnecessarily aggressive on nights when the club had a black clientele, quelling fights by dousing the crowd with pepper spray and calling in several police squad cars as backup, a tactic she called “overkill.”

From : https://apnews.com/69beaad97dcea2dce6c2184e0f5b5e4e

She said Chauvin got along well with the club’s Latino regulars, but his tactics toward unruly customers on what she referred to as “African American” nights led her to speak to him about it.

“I told him I thought this is unnecessary to be pepper-sprayed. The knee-jerk reaction of being afraid, it seemed overkill,” Santamaria said. “It was a concern and I did voice my opinion, but police officers have a way of justifying what they do.”

She said she was shocked to see the video of Chauvin pinning Floyd to the ground with his knee, even as Floyd complained that he couldn’t breathe.

“I thought he would have more of a conscience,” she said. “Even if he is a bit of racist, he’s a human being. … At what point does your humanity overpower your racial bias?”

So now we know more than we did. I'm comfortable with my stance.

There's nothing here, you MAY? have shown some proof of being a bad cop, or even bad person, that doesnt prove this was a racist killing.  You need to show some social  media racial stuff he posted,  show he was part of a hate group, left some racial thing at the scene of the crime, or something of the like.   You can say if Floyd was white this wouldnt have happened, can you prove that??  NO,     As stated, at this point this being a racial crime is questionable.           

Thanks for your response.
I'm thankful you feel I may have shown something.  I won't  chant slogans, claim it's all some right wing, left wing or media conspiracy, but try to get to the truth as best as I can.
I put stock in what  Maya Santamaria had to say even if others don't.  As his boss she addressed the situation with him.
I feel  that is a piece of "You need to show some social  media racial stuff he posted,  show he was part of a hate group, left some racial thing at the scene of the crime, or something of the like. "

That doesnt mean something wont come up,  he could have been a Grand Wizard of the KKK,  we'll just have to see what comes out.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 08, 2020, 12:07:29 PM
Packers related on the current issue of the day:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/06/08/billy-turner-no-nervousness-in-packers-conversations-about-racism/

Sounds great, the NFL's issue with racism and curbing it isnt a problem for me.   If the Packers want to tackle racism, go for it.

This issue comes when you hijack the anthem and flag.  kneeling is no different when the anthem comes on some clown comes out of the tunnel on a unicycle and juggling tennis balls with a spotlight on him.  Would you support that??    Its disrespectful, IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT THE CAUSE IS.   its wrong, and kneeling for a cause is going to backfire again.

If the NFL wants to hold a 20 minute BLM pep rally before/after the anthem or at halftime,  GO FOR IT.   After the looting of the cities, Middle America isnt going to go for the trampling of the flag again and Godell is miscalculating if he thinks getting all these players on board right now is going to do it.  IMO. 

Respect for that flag should come before any social cause you or I can think of. 

And when fans start booing occurs during the anthem, claiming they are booing the players, they are in reality disrespecting the anthem, the flag and the troops.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 08, 2020, 12:22:46 PM
Packers related on the current issue of the day:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/06/08/billy-turner-no-nervousness-in-packers-conversations-about-racism/

Sounds great, the NFL's issue with racism and curbing it isnt a problem for me.   If the Packers want to tackle racism, go for it.

This issue comes when you hijack the anthem and flag.  kneeling is no different when the anthem comes on some clown comes out of the tunnel on a unicycle and juggling tennis balls with a spotlight on him.  Would you support that??    Its disrespectful, IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT THE CAUSE IS.   its wrong, and kneeling for a cause is going to backfire again.

If the NFL wants to hold a 20 minute BLM pep rally before/after the anthem or at halftime,  GO FOR IT.   After the looting of the cities, Middle America isnt going to go for the trampling of the flag again and Godell is miscalculating if he thinks getting all these players on board right now is going to do it.  IMO. 

Respect for that flag should come before any social cause you or I can think of. 

And when fans start booing occurs during the anthem, claiming they are booing the players, they are in reality disrespecting the anthem, the flag and the troops.

Complete delusional nonsense.    The flag has been around for 244 years, the National Anthem around for 206 years.  Became the official anthem in 1931.  Can you name  one instance where people booed the flag and anthem before this kneeling stuff started???  You cant, its the kneeling.

Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 08, 2020, 12:55:48 PM
Complete delusional nonsense.    The flag has been around for 244 years, the National Anthem around for 206 years.  Became the official anthem in 1931.  Can you name  one instance where people booed the flag and anthem before this kneeling stuff started???  You cant, its the kneeling.

GM, since you haven't yet gotten the point of my rebuttals, I'll explain. Since the players have made it crystal clear, repeatedly ad nauseum that they are NOT kneeling to protest anything other than police violence, and you and others refuse to believe them (is that delusional nonsense, or cognitive dissonance?), I turned that argument on it's head. By (supposedly) refusing to believe that fans booing the players would mean they are disrespecting the anthem, flag and troops, I was seeking to point out the fallacies of your belief. In short, I was yanking your chain, and the collective chains of anyone who can't won't listen to the players, but continue to believe a false narrative. I don't believe this was on the level of "Now go get your shine box!", but an attempt to use irony to get my point across.

Actually, I agree that kneeling during the anthem will indeed be counterproductive. But yes, players will be kneeling to protest police violence. And you and others will perceive this as disrespect to the flag. I understand your position, and I disagree. 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: scoremore on June 08, 2020, 02:06:11 PM
It is disrespecting the flag.  I don't care what twist you guys put on it.  We all have our opinions.  50% of the fan base will be pissed off.  They went down that road and it didn't go well.  If they want to make a statement do it another way.  Why kneel when the know if offends so many?  Duh?  When fans start tuning out and revenues fall (again) and players salaries are impacted maybe they will get the message. 

I like how some of you guys try to defend the idiocy of declaring war on the police.  You just saw cities burn when the police were told to stand down.  Duh?  For all you who support the Minneapolis council would you support deconstructing the police in your neighborhood?

Think with your head rather than your heart.  That's the problem with progressive liberalism.  Well intentioned but the results of such policies are often catastrophic.  All major inner cities with high crime and murder rates are ran by liberals.  Strict gun control laws and weak law enforcement.  Duh? Not interested in reading your links either.  I have made my stance quite clear and don't need to further comment.  I live in a rural area where we don't have these kind of problems.  Don't care what happens in these cities.  People who vote for clowns will reap what they sow. 

I see players kneeling during the anthem I will tune out permanently.  Not going to go through that crap again.  The NFL is going to be in for a very rude awakening as are the players if they try that again.  When you hear booing in the stadiums it will be squarely directed at those who refuse to stand.  Make no mistake about it.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Fargofootball on June 08, 2020, 03:39:52 PM
It is disrespecting the flag.  I don't care what twist you guys put on it.  We all have our opinions.  50% of the fan base will be pissed off.  They went down that road and it didn't go well.  If they want to make a statement do it another way.  Why kneel when the know if offends so many?  Duh?  When fans start tuning out and revenues fall (again) and players salaries are impacted maybe they will get the message. 

I like how some of you guys try to defend the idiocy of declaring war on the police.  You just saw cities burn when the police were told to stand down.  Duh?  For all you who support the Minneapolis council would you support deconstructing the police in your neighborhood?

Think with your head rather than your heart.  That's the problem with progressive liberalism.  Well intentioned but the results of such policies are often catastrophic.  All major inner cities with high crime and murder rates are ran by liberals.  Strict gun control laws and weak law enforcement.  Duh? Not interested in reading your links either.  I have made my stance quite clear and don't need to further comment.  I live in a rural area where we don't have these kind of problems.  Don't care what happens in these cities.  People who vote for clowns will reap what they sow. 

I see players kneeling during the anthem I will tune out permanently.  Not going to go through that crap again.  The NFL is going to be in for a very rude awakening as are the players if they try that again.  When you hear booing in the stadiums it will be squarely directed at those who refuse to stand.  Make no mistake about it.
Rant on about the Liberal establishment, protest against them if you feel the need to. That is your right. If I don't like it, too bad for me. That's the good old USA.
IMHO the MAJORITY, if not all of all NFL players and coaches will be kneeling whenever games start whether the anthem is played or not. Good chance you won't like this season and choose to miss it.
As long as it's legal one should be able to message/protest any way one chooses. Don't like, too bad. That's the good old USA.







Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: scoremore on June 08, 2020, 04:09:50 PM
It is disrespecting the flag.  I don't care what twist you guys put on it.  We all have our opinions.  50% of the fan base will be pissed off.  They went down that road and it didn't go well.  If they want to make a statement do it another way.  Why kneel when the know if offends so many?  Duh?  When fans start tuning out and revenues fall (again) and players salaries are impacted maybe they will get the message. 

I like how some of you guys try to defend the idiocy of declaring war on the police.  You just saw cities burn when the police were told to stand down.  Duh?  For all you who support the Minneapolis council would you support deconstructing the police in your neighborhood?

Think with your head rather than your heart.  That's the problem with progressive liberalism.  Well intentioned but the results of such policies are often catastrophic.  All major inner cities with high crime and murder rates are ran by liberals.  Strict gun control laws and weak law enforcement.  Duh? Not interested in reading your links either.  I have made my stance quite clear and don't need to further comment.  I live in a rural area where we don't have these kind of problems.  Don't care what happens in these cities.  People who vote for clowns will reap what they sow. 

I see players kneeling during the anthem I will tune out permanently.  Not going to go through that crap again.  The NFL is going to be in for a very rude awakening as are the players if they try that again.  When you hear booing in the stadiums it will be squarely directed at those who refuse to stand.  Make no mistake about it.
Rant on about the Liberal establishment, protest against them if you feel the need to. That is your right. If I don't like it, too bad for me. That's the good old USA.
IMHO the MAJORITY, if not all of all NFL players and coaches will be kneeling whenever games start whether the anthem is played or not. Good chance you won't like this season and choose to miss it.
As long as it's legal one should be able to message/protest any way one chooses. Don't like, too bad. That's the good old USA.

Sure is.  Money talks and BS walks in the good ole USA.  The NFL will suffer as a result.  I can live without the Packers.  If they take a knee during the anthem I'll tune out and so will many other fans. Athletes getting rich in the good ole USA shouldn't be biting the hand that feeds them.  No one argues it they want to make a statement just need to find another way to do it.  You saw the blow back that resulted last time.  It will happen again but this time the damage will run far deeper and more permanent.  If they want to take a knee in solidarity before the anthem no problem with that at all.  Good idea and that would be the correct approach. 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 08, 2020, 05:36:07 PM
It is disrespecting the flag.  I don't care what twist you guys put on it.  We all have our opinions.  50% of the fan base will be pissed off.  They went down that road and it didn't go well.  If they want to make a statement do it another way.  Why kneel when the know if offends so many?  Duh?  When fans start tuning out and revenues fall (again) and players salaries are impacted maybe they will get the message. 

I like how some of you guys try to defend the idiocy of declaring war on the police.  You just saw cities burn when the police were told to stand down.  Duh?  For all you who support the Minneapolis council would you support deconstructing the police in your neighborhood?

Think with your head rather than your heart.  That's the problem with progressive liberalism.  Well intentioned but the results of such policies are often catastrophic.  All major inner cities with high crime and murder rates are ran by liberals.  Strict gun control laws and weak law enforcement.  Duh? Not interested in reading your links either.  I have made my stance quite clear and don't need to further comment.  I live in a rural area where we don't have these kind of problems.  Don't care what happens in these cities.  People who vote for clowns will reap what they sow. 

I see players kneeling during the anthem I will tune out permanently.  Not going to go through that crap again.  The NFL is going to be in for a very rude awakening as are the players if they try that again.  When you hear booing in the stadiums it will be squarely directed at those who refuse to stand.  Make no mistake about it.
Rant on about the Liberal establishment, protest against them if you feel the need to. That is your right. If I don't like it, too bad for me. That's the good old USA.
IMHO the MAJORITY, if not all of all NFL players and coaches will be kneeling whenever games start whether the anthem is played or not. Good chance you won't like this season and choose to miss it.
As long as it's legal one should be able to message/protest any way one chooses. Don't like, too bad. That's the good old USA.

Sure is.  Money talks and BS walks in the good ole USA.  The NFL will suffer as a result.  I can live without the Packers.  If they take a knee during the anthem I'll tune out and so will many other fans. Athletes getting rich in the good ole USA shouldn't be biting the hand that feeds them.  No one argues it they want to make a statement just need to find another way to do it.  You saw the blow back that resulted last time.  It will happen again but this time the damage will run far deeper and more permanent.  If they want to take a knee in solidarity before the anthem no problem with that at all.  Good idea and that would be the correct approach.

I will watch the Packers but that's it, no other games and every sponsor of those Packer games will get a letter and a boycott from me.  Its  about the misuse of the platform for me.

I may send one to that My Pillow guy just for the annoying commercials as a practice letter.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 08, 2020, 05:41:25 PM
Sure is.  Money talks and BS walks in the good ole USA.  The NFL will suffer as a result.  I can live without the Packers.  If they take a knee during the anthem I'll tune out and so will many other fans. Athletes getting rich in the good ole USA shouldn't be biting the hand that feeds them.  No one argues it they want to make a statement just need to find another way to do it.  You saw the blow back that resulted last time.  It will happen again but this time the damage will run far deeper and more permanent.  If they want to take a knee in solidarity before the anthem no problem with that at all.  Good idea and that would be the correct approach.

Just to be clear, if ANY NFL player kneels, you'll stop watching the games. What if no Packers players kneels? Just curious. And I do emphasize. I haven't watched, listened to or followed baseball in any way, shape or form since their last strike. It wasn't even the strike that did  it. It was the commercials afterward, with Billy Crystal telling me I had to forgive and forget; I needed baseball, and I couldn't live without it. That was the last straw for me. And I used to attend every Brewers home opener, and at least a couple dozen games a year.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 08, 2020, 08:01:39 PM
Would love to see this, if true.

Paul Sperry
@paulsperry_
·
8h
BREAKING: Minnesota Attorney General Keith "X" Ellison refuses to publicly release video footage from the body cams of accused cops who struggled with 6-4, 235-lb George Floyd. Footage is said to reveal Floyd violently resisting arrest and fighting with cops inside police vehicle.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 08, 2020, 10:04:39 PM
Would love to see this, if true.

Paul Sperry
@paulsperry_
·
8h
BREAKING: Minnesota Attorney General Keith "X" Ellison refuses to publicly release video footage from the body cams of accused cops who struggled with 6-4, 235-lb George Floyd. Footage is said to reveal Floyd violently resisting arrest and fighting with cops inside police vehicle.

Release it, and let the arguments begin. Though Sperry himself is a staunch conservative, and just as you should take a "wait and see" approach when someone makes claims on the Left, so with the Right. By the way, about the "dismantling" of the police department, this is how it might look if they do move forward with this idea:

(Note that in the article, there are repeated warnings about trying to make too much of this change)

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 08, 2020, 10:28:40 PM
The video may show why they had to restrain him.  The neck will be tough for the defense, but you also must add in the fentenyl and its bad effects on the heart rate breathing and the respitory system and how much that played a part.   We'll see, but this may not be a slam dunk.  This could drag out a long, long time but dude will see jail time. IMO
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: RT on June 09, 2020, 01:51:49 AM
Would love to see this, if true.

Paul Sperry
@paulsperry_
·
8h
BREAKING: Minnesota Attorney General Keith "X" Ellison refuses to publicly release video footage from the body cams of accused cops who struggled with 6-4, 235-lb George Floyd. Footage is said to reveal Floyd violently resisting arrest and fighting with cops inside police vehicle.

Release it, and let the arguments begin. Though Sperry himself is a staunch conservative, and just as you should take a "wait and see" approach when someone makes claims on the Left, so with the Right. By the way, about the "dismantling" of the police department, this is how it might look if they do move forward with this idea:

(Note that in the article, there are repeated warnings about trying to make too much of this change)

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/

Here is something found when you google the site name:

CityLab Left-Center biased based on editorial positions that align with left.

And since it has a left bias I guess it is not even worth linking too. Is that how it works ricky? Like you discrediting a site because it might have a right bias and not even bother to open it to view the content.

The ricky quote, ' This is the problem. We don't watch the same programs; we don't listen to the same commentators; we don't talk to each other. We take our stands, gather the facts that we believe will support our position, and ignore anything that might shake our core beliefs. Now, of course, this is only the Left that does this; the Right are logical, sensible and carefully consider all viewpoints before taking a stand'. Kind of a hypocrite don't you think.

As for the article, it is nice to see an example of reform that is working and can give other cities something to work off of. Now if we could get some reform to the public educational system and put an end to the bigotry that is being pushed on the young we would will have a chance at real change for the coming generations.   
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 09, 2020, 05:45:30 AM
Here is something found when you google the site name:

CityLab Left-Center biased based on editorial positions that align with left.

And since it has a left bias I guess it is not even worth linking too. Is that how it works ricky? Like you discrediting a site because it might have a right bias and not even bother to open it to view the content.

The ricky quote, ' This is the problem. We don't watch the same programs; we don't listen to the same commentators; we don't talk to each other. We take our stands, gather the facts that we believe will support our position, and ignore anything that might shake our core beliefs. Now, of course, this is only the Left that does this; the Right are logical, sensible and carefully consider all viewpoints before taking a stand'. Kind of a hypocrite don't you think.

Hypocrite? Hardly. I saw the article and linked to it, because it was very careful to point out that Camden is more of an experiment in progress than a definitive answer. I googled the name, and Citylab was originally affiliated with The Atlantic, but was purchased by Bloomburg. So, yes, a Left political bias. But they also seemed to be careful to make the article nuanced. So, absolutely, as with anything, take it in with an eye toward pushing an agenda, or bias, or just plain being wrong. Try to have an open mind, but always treat anything political as if you're dealing with a used car salesman.


As for the article, it is nice to see an example of reform that is working and can give other cities something to work off of. Now if we could get some reform to the public educational system and put an end to the bigotry that is being pushed on the young we would will have a chance at real change for the coming generations.

Beautifully stated. This would be a titanic undertaking; but the last two words in American are "I can". The problem is that this sort of introspection has occurred repeatedly, and we fall back into the easy, comfortable path of denial and "not me" that prevents real change.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 09, 2020, 06:13:47 AM
Part 1 of new video, clear trouble getting him in car. 

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1270253260201275392?s=20
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 09, 2020, 06:21:02 AM
Part 2, video cuts short of what happened in car (Imagine that from the liberal media).  Police body cams could show what happened if released.

They ended up pulling him out of the car on the passenger side and onto the ground.

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1270253262105542656?s=20
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 09, 2020, 06:40:13 AM
GM, these are relatively old videos. They were part of a longer video that I posted twice. It shows it more clearly, but Floyd was being uncooperative after being compliant earlier. Definitely, release the body cam footage.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 09, 2020, 06:48:32 AM
GM, these are relatively old videos. They were part of a longer video that I posted twice. It shows it more clearly, but Floyd was being uncooperative after being compliant earlier. Definitely, release the body cam footage.

I saw the video of the initial arrest you posted, that cut off when they walked  him to the car.  Did yours have the footage of getting him in the car?
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Premontre1969 on June 09, 2020, 07:20:59 PM
 I’m afraid that some players will kneel during the anthem from now on. They’ve convinced themselves that it gets headlines and will want the same attention the media has lavished on Kaepernick.

I think it’s time the NFL does the anthem in the pre-game show, before the players take the field. Don’t give them the opportunity to create the distraction.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 09, 2020, 08:05:48 PM
I’m afraid that some players will kneel during the anthem from now on. They’ve convinced themselves that it gets headlines and will want the same attention the media has lavished on Kaepernick.

I think it’s time the NFL does the anthem in the pre-game show, before the players take the field. Don’t give them the opportunity to create the distraction.

What do you think?

Agree, I think the league will try it with kneeling the first few weeks, and depending on the backlash will
A: Not do the Anthem at all
B.  Do it with the players in the lockerroom
C.  If you come out for the anthem, you must stand otherwise stay in until its over.

There's going to be somebody who insists on coming out and kneeling as a stunt.  That's where the Color Guard rifles come into play.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Minny Packer Fan on June 09, 2020, 08:18:39 PM
I lurk here a lot but rarely post.  I enjoy the back and forth on some of these issues we face.  I want to add when your discussing the accused there is one fundamental right that I and everyone should hold dear:

A key principle of the American criminal justice system is that a defendant accused of a crime is presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. This protection comes from the due process guarantees in the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments of the U.S. Constitution.

Everyone deserves this right.  While people can argue about what they see on a video or what they heard from a prosecutor or a TV anchor, this bedrock principle of our country is so important, especially right now.

Before judging, let all the evidence be presented and then and only then judge.  Many people seem to have forgotten this principle in this era of rush to judgment.  I doubt any of us has seen all the evidence and we certainly at this point cannot pretend to know the intentions of the accused.  Our society depends on this right.  I live in the Minneapolis area and I still have confidence that our justice system can work.  Patience and an open mind to hear all the facts are required right now as this is very important to the family and friends of the deceased, the people of Minneapolis, and the accused.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 09, 2020, 10:21:08 PM
I’m afraid that some players will kneel during the anthem from now on. They’ve convinced themselves that it gets headlines and will want the same attention the media has lavished on Kaepernick.

I think it’s time the NFL does the anthem in the pre-game show, before the players take the field. Don’t give them the opportunity to create the distraction.

What do you think?

This was how it was done until a few years ago. Then, the NFL decided the players should be on the field for some reason. Quite possibly a quid pro quo for getting the "free" flyovers and military color guards to assist in the pregame ceremonies. So, let the players warm up, return to the locker room until after the ceremonies, just like they did for years. Here is a link, if anyone cares to read it:

https://people.com/politics/nfl-players-national-anthem-2009-government-payments/
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 09, 2020, 10:24:15 PM
I lurk here a lot but rarely post.  I enjoy the back and forth on some of these issues we face.  I want to add when your discussing the accused there is one fundamental right that I and everyone should hold dear:

A key principle of the American criminal justice system is that a defendant accused of a crime is presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. This protection comes from the due process guarantees in the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments of the U.S. Constitution.

Everyone deserves this right.  While people can argue about what they see on a video or what they heard from a prosecutor or a TV anchor, this bedrock principle of our country is so important, especially right now.

Before judging, let all the evidence be presented and then and only then judge.  Many people seem to have forgotten this principle in this era of rush to judgment.  I doubt any of us has seen all the evidence and we certainly at this point cannot pretend to know the intentions of the accused.  Our society depends on this right.  I live in the Minneapolis area and I still have confidence that our justice system can work.  Patience and an open mind to hear all the facts are required right now as this is very important to the family and friends of the deceased, the people of Minneapolis, and the accused.

Of course the accused should be given their day in court. If you could point out who said they shouldn't, please provide their poster name and quote them directly, or cut/paste the post that denies these rights. And recall that George Floyd also should have had those rights if he were still alive.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: RT on June 10, 2020, 12:40:31 AM
I lurk here a lot but rarely post.  I enjoy the back and forth on some of these issues we face.  I want to add when your discussing the accused there is one fundamental right that I and everyone should hold dear:

A key principle of the American criminal justice system is that a defendant accused of a crime is presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. This protection comes from the due process guarantees in the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments of the U.S. Constitution.

Everyone deserves this right.  While people can argue about what they see on a video or what they heard from a prosecutor or a TV anchor, this bedrock principle of our country is so important, especially right now.

Before judging, let all the evidence be presented and then and only then judge.  Many people seem to have forgotten this principle in this era of rush to judgment.  I doubt any of us has seen all the evidence and we certainly at this point cannot pretend to know the intentions of the accused.  Our society depends on this right.  I live in the Minneapolis area and I still have confidence that our justice system can work.  Patience and an open mind to hear all the facts are required right now as this is very important to the family and friends of the deceased, the people of Minneapolis, and the accused.

Thanks for the reminder Minny Packer fan, the court of public opinion certainly has him guilty already. If he has a good lawyer he will probably do no time and they will attempt to burn the city to the ground again. The troubles in Minneapolis are far from over.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on June 10, 2020, 06:48:22 AM
Probably going to have to move this trial somewhere else.  Finding an impartial jury will be tough and you dont want them  traveling through what looks like a boarded up war zone to get to trial every day. Due to the media coverage you are probably going to have to sequester the jury.  We'll see, if they dont make a deal, this trial could take some time.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: OneTwoSixFive on June 11, 2020, 02:56:20 AM
While the racial element to the treatment of Floyd is what the public has latched onto, it is not the only element.

What tends to be forgotten is that regardless of race this is unacceptable treatment of a person.

I was shocked at the TV footage of this, not because Floyd was black, but because it was one person killing another person.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Hands on June 15, 2020, 09:43:43 AM
Just heard that the CDC and WHO both came out and said Floyd died of Covid-19....so there won't  be a trial....
just kidding on a Monday morning. Actually we have had several deaths/homicides in either Dallas or Houston that were blamed on the Wuhan virus...
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 15, 2020, 10:50:30 AM
Just heard that the CDC and WHO both came out and said Floyd died of Covid-19....so there won't  be a trial....
just kidding on a Monday morning. Actually we have had several deaths/homicides in either Dallas or Houston that were blamed on the Wuhan virus...

You live in Texas too? We're in the RGV. And yes, Covid cases are on the rise as the lockdown eases. Why? Because people refuse to take precautions. Go the grocery store, and about half the people shopping aren't masked. We went to South Padre for a few days once it re-opened, and we, along with the staff of the hotel we were at, were the only ones wearing masks. If this was only a matter of personal preference- such as not wearing a seat belt- I'd be fine with it. But you can infect others; there is no cure; and the death rate is pegged at over 5% (from RealClearPolitics). This rises very quickly with age- and we're both retired. So I get a little testy when others want to impose extend their idea of personal freedom to "I don't care if I infect you". Or as Ken Paxton, the Texas AG said, if you're old, you should be willing to die to keep the economy going. I'm hoping he'll lead by example, the sooner the better.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem - Police Unions
Post by: Premontre1969 on June 16, 2020, 04:46:40 PM
Police Union’s

We hear lots of talk about the big Pharma lobby in Washington but the police union’s lobby is every bit as powerful. They now have the Democratic side refusing to allow Policeman decertification’s into the pending legislation. Even if a policeman has a record of abuse and complaints the police union will not accept this positive and needed managerial tool.

Do the players really want to effect real change or do they just want to be politically correct on the surface and grandstand on the field for personal glorification? If they want real change I implore them to take a stand against the police union lobby in Washington. Are they even paying attention? Come on NFL, let's hear you too.

Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Premontre1969 on June 16, 2020, 09:07:47 PM
I’m also questioning the sincerity of protesters. If you really want change make your voice heard by your Congressman. Both of the recent shootings of black men were committed by police officers with mulitple complaints on their record. Proposed legislation would end police immunity or allow managers to decertify a bad cop.

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/06/14/us/14reuters-minneapolis-police-congress.html

If you’re not making a poltical effort I discount your sincerity. Take the next step and express your support directly to your Congressman.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Hands on June 17, 2020, 06:29:56 AM
Just heard that the CDC and WHO both came out and said Floyd died of Covid-19....so there won't  be a trial....
just kidding on a Monday morning. Actually we have had several deaths/homicides in either Dallas or Houston that were blamed on the Wuhan virus...

You live in Texas too? We're in the RGV. And yes, Covid cases are on the rise as the lockdown eases. Why? Because people refuse to take precautions. Go the grocery store, and about half the people shopping aren't masked. We went to South Padre for a few days once it re-opened, and we, along with the staff of the hotel we were at, were the only ones wearing masks. If this was only a matter of personal preference- such as not wearing a seat belt- I'd be fine with it. But you can infect others; there is no cure; and the death rate is pegged at over 5% (from RealClearPolitics). This rises very quickly with age- and we're both retired. So I get a little testy when others want to impose extend their idea of personal freedom to "I don't care if I infect you". Or as Ken Paxton, the Texas AG said, if you're old, you should be willing to die to keep the economy going. I'm hoping he'll lead by example, the sooner the better.
Ricky, you're a valley guy...how about that. Live in McKinney and love South Padre. Actually it was our Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick who said that.
My daughter-in-law has a sister in Dallas that leans to the left. She's a pathologist and said the positive numbers are due to the large number of testing they are doing. She said the key is hospitalizations and if they are increasing. She doesn't wear a mask around me but does going to stores.
Ricky, we're also similar ages. We are the vulnerable ones so yes we are going to wear mask for a while until this settles down.
Paxton's from McKinney. Funny thing....his wife is really the political star of that family. Talking to Ken when I see him in our grocery store, which is often, you figure he's a smart guy. Talk to his wife and you think....future Gov or Senator. Whole different level of smarts.
Anyway stay safe we are the ones that are vulnerable have to protect ourselves.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 17, 2020, 10:24:32 AM
Hands, yep, we moved here about 26 years ago after getting recruited for teaching jobs, and never left. Anyway, you're right about it not being Paxton, but Patrick. And you're also correct about hospitalizations being the gold standard of Covid increases. And Texas is indeed seeing higher hospitalization numbers, I believe, due to people just not being careful. We can't control what others do, just try to minimize the risk for us and those around us: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-coronavirus-highest-day-hospitalized-patients/
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Hands on June 17, 2020, 04:25:27 PM
We moved to Dallas area from Greenville SC about 24 years ago. At my wife's 60th birthday party a close friend and native Texan gave her a plaque saying she was now a true Texan. He has since past on but she has that plaque up and tells everyone how proud she is of it.
Where are you from originally?
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on June 17, 2020, 06:45:26 PM
We moved to Dallas area from Greenville SC about 24 years ago. At my wife's 60th birthday party a close friend and native Texan gave her a plaque saying she was now a true Texan. He has since past on but she has that plaque up and tells everyone how proud she is of it.
Where are you from originally?

Sheboygan, Wisconsin. Halfway between Milwaukee and Green Bay on Lake Michigan. Hated the winters. Grew up in a house on a corner with a two car garage. And a lot of snowy winters. And the snow plows came around several times, pushing the snow further and further back, so you had to shovel out the driveway three-four times after a big snowfall. I'll take the occasional hurricane anytime, thanks.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on July 02, 2020, 02:13:20 PM
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/07/02/report-nfl-to-play-black-national-anthem-before-season-openers/

sooo, are they kneeling for this one too??     
 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on July 02, 2020, 03:17:23 PM
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/07/02/report-nfl-to-play-black-national-anthem-before-season-openers/

sooo, are they kneeling for this one too??   

Interesting question. We'll see. By the way, has anyone ever heard of this anthem before this? Here is something from the NAACP (perhaps they should re-think the name of this organization; after all "Colored People" seems a bit dated; maybe they could be the NAAPC (People of Color)?  :P

https://www.naacp.org/naacp-history-lift-evry-voice-and-sing/
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: redfox33 on September 14, 2020, 06:53:57 AM
I served under my country as is my grandson now. My brother died serving in nam. He got cancer from repeat agent orange and died. His last response was he fought for freedom and honored the American Flag, and he is dyeing a free man. I live in MN and when the team refused to honor the flag it was a slap in my brothers face as if he was wrong. After wiping the tears away i could not watch the game. As one of the owners i feel disgraced and shamed. Its just not right for any reason.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on September 14, 2020, 12:49:16 PM
I served under my country as is my grandson now. My brother died serving in nam. He got cancer from repeat agent orange and died. His last response was he fought for freedom and honored the American Flag, and he is dyeing a free man. I live in MN and when the team refused to honor the flag it was a slap in my brothers face as if he was wrong. After wiping the tears away i could not watch the game. As one of the owners i feel disgraced and shamed. Its just not right for any reason.

First and foremost, Thank you for your service.  Keep your head up and ride this out.   There are millions of people that feel the same way.  TV numbers are down and rightfully so.  I understand what the NFL is targeting, and its good.  The method is the problem.  I think the "End Racism" slogan is much more effective than BLM because that has turned into something I dont think even the NFL expected.  JMO.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Minny Packer Fan on September 14, 2020, 03:18:04 PM

First and foremost, Thank you for your service.  Keep your head up and ride this out.   There are millions of people that feel the same way.  TV numbers are down and rightfully so.  I understand what the NFL is targeting, and its good.  The method is the problem.  I think the "End Racism" slogan is much more effective than BLM because that has turned into something I dont think even the NFL expected.  JMO.

I agree that the "End Racism" slogan may be a more effective approach than BLM.  I think everybody supports the notion that Black Lives Matter, but many people, if they read what the organization "Black Lives Matter" stands for in their charter and the backgrounds of the individuals who are in charge of it will question or disagree with things in the organization's platform.  Players may want to distinguish between the two and this may be a good way to do it.

Apparently ratings for the the season opener between the Chiefs-Texans on Thursday night game were down about 11-16% from last years Packers-Bears game depending on who reported it.  Its just one game.  On the other hand, it was just reported that the ratings for the Cowboys-Rams game were down over 25% from last years first Sunday night game.  And the Cowboys are usually a solid draw.  Again, just one game....but if the trend continues...I would expect the networks to use that in negotiating the new TV contract amounts.   
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on September 15, 2020, 09:56:24 AM
I agree that the "End Racism" slogan may be a more effective approach than BLM.  I think everybody supports the notion that Black Lives Matter, but many people, if they read what the organization "Black Lives Matter" stands for in their charter and the backgrounds of the individuals who are in charge of it will question or disagree with things in the organization's platform.  Players may want to distinguish between the two and this may be a good way to do it.

Apparently ratings for the the season opener between the Chiefs-Texans on Thursday night game were down about 11-16% from last years Packers-Bears game depending on who reported it.  Its just one game.  On the other hand, it was just reported that the ratings for the Cowboys-Rams game were down over 25% from last years first Sunday night game.  And the Cowboys are usually a solid draw.  Again, just one game....but if the trend continues...I would expect the networks to use that in negotiating the new TV contract amounts.

Like so many other things, you can look at the same data and come away with different conclusions.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/ct-nfl-tv-ratings-20190911-vndcvaa7nzhhhb42fudrxf7oky-story.html

Meanwhile, apparently NFL merchandise is flying off the shelves. So, either the NFL is in trouble, or they're doing fine. I'm not going to argue either case, just present another viewpoint from someone else. Because I'm going to watch the games if possible, but probably won't buy any merch- I've already got about six Packers T-shirts, four or five caps, a sweatshirt, swim trunks and several workout shorts. So I'm good.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: Minny Packer Fan on September 15, 2020, 10:58:26 AM
I agree that the "End Racism" slogan may be a more effective approach than BLM.  I think everybody supports the notion that Black Lives Matter, but many people, if they read what the organization "Black Lives Matter" stands for in their charter and the backgrounds of the individuals who are in charge of it will question or disagree with things in the organization's platform.  Players may want to distinguish between the two and this may be a good way to do it.

Apparently ratings for the the season opener between the Chiefs-Texans on Thursday night game were down about 11-16% from last years Packers-Bears game depending on who reported it.  Its just one game.  On the other hand, it was just reported that the ratings for the Cowboys-Rams game were down over 25% from last years first Sunday night game.  And the Cowboys are usually a solid draw.  Again, just one game....but if the trend continues...I would expect the networks to use that in negotiating the new TV contract amounts.

Like so many other things, you can look at the same data and come away with different conclusions.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/ct-nfl-tv-ratings-20190911-vndcvaa7nzhhhb42fudrxf7oky-story.html

Meanwhile, apparently NFL merchandise is flying off the shelves. So, either the NFL is in trouble, or they're doing fine. I'm not going to argue either case, just present another viewpoint from someone else. Because I'm going to watch the games if possible, but probably won't buy any merch- I've already got about six Packers T-shirts, four or five caps, a sweatshirt, swim trunks and several workout shorts. So I'm good.

Is the date of that report correct September of 2019?  Granted...yes...I will be very interested in how the full slate of games turned out.  I would imagine that the Buc's (Brady) against the Saints (Brees) matchup did very well for Fox.  Hopefully they are able to keep the rating at least steady.  I'm also seeing rating drops in the NBA and MLB, but with COVID-19 and everything, we are not at normal and peoples viewing habits I think are in flux right now.  If anybody could do it...its the NFL.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: iarwain on September 24, 2020, 10:42:20 PM
A few more tweets from Colin Kaepernick, showing what he is about:

"The white supremacist institution of policing that stole Breonna Taylor’s life from us must be abolished for the safety and well being of our people."

"When civility leads to death, revolting is the only logical reaction.
The cries for peace will rain down, and when they do, they will land on deaf ears, because your violence has brought this resistance.
We have the right to fight back!
Rest in Power George Floyd"
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on September 25, 2020, 11:08:47 AM
A few more tweets from Colin Kaepernick, showing what he is about:

"The white supremacist institution of policing that stole Breonna Taylor’s life from us must be abolished for the safety and well being of our people."

"When civility leads to death, revolting is the only logical reaction.
The cries for peace will rain down, and when they do, they will land on deaf ears, because your violence has brought this resistance.
We have the right to fight back!
Rest in Power George Floyd"

Exactly what change has happened after 4 months of violence?   The law is the law, burning buildings down doesn't change it.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on October 07, 2020, 05:12:04 PM
https://www.theblaze.com/amp/nba-to-pull-blm-messages-next-season-2648132130?__twitter_impression=true

Well, that was fun.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on October 07, 2020, 06:03:36 PM
https://www.theblaze.com/amp/nba-to-pull-blm-messages-next-season-2648132130?__twitter_impression=true

Well, that was fun.

Pulled a statement from the article that was perceptive:

It should be noted that nearly all major sports have experienced a ratings decline in 2020 as off-schedule seasons and empty arenas have proven to be significant drawbacks for viewers. Given the confluence of events, it is difficult to determine precisely why fewer people are watching.

Sometimes things are more complicated than we want to believe.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: iarwain on October 07, 2020, 08:31:38 PM
Sometimes things are more complicated than we want to believe.
True, but I have no doubt the injection of politics into sports is one factor in the ratings decline.  Especially with the NBA, who have taken it further than most.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: ricky on October 07, 2020, 09:14:33 PM
Sometimes things are more complicated than we want to believe.
True, but I have no doubt the injection of politics into sports is one factor in the ratings decline.  Especially with the NBA, who have taken it further than most.

No argument on that point. But some people say that is the only reason for the decline in viewership, when there are many factors to be considered. Including 2020 being an unusually sucky year.
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: iarwain on October 08, 2020, 09:41:54 AM
No argument on that point. But some people say that is the only reason for the decline in viewership, when there are many factors to be considered.
Not only are the sports leagues directly suffering lower ratings, sports news programs have also taken a hit.  ESPN especially has fallen off of a cliff.  I know just speaking for myself, I used to (casually) watch First Take and Undisputed fairly regularly (annoying as they were).  But they've become so political and super woke that I don't bother with them at all anymore.  Well, I'm probably better off anyway.  But yes, I agree there are still other factors at play. 
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: The GM on October 08, 2020, 10:02:00 AM
No argument on that point. But some people say that is the only reason for the decline in viewership, when there are many factors to be considered.
Not only are the sports leagues directly suffering lower ratings, sports news programs have also taken a hit.  ESPN especially has fallen off of a cliff.  I know just speaking for myself, I used to (casually) watch First Take and Undisputed fairly regularly (annoying as they were).  But they've become so political and super woke that I don't bother with them at all anymore.  Well, I'm probably better off anyway.  But yes, I agree there are still other factors at play.

+1,  Used to watch Undisputed every day.  Havent watched it in 4 months when it became a BLM, Kaepernick infomercial and Shannon Sharpe became Shannon Sharpton.   I get what they want to do but this drinking from a fire hose approach has turned many people off. JMO
Title: Re: Protests during the National Anthem
Post by: iarwain on October 08, 2020, 12:56:10 PM
+1,  Used to watch Undisputed every day.  Havent watched it in 4 months when it became a BLM, Kaepernick infomercial and Shannon Sharpe became Shannon Sharpton.   I get what they want to do but this drinking from a fire hose approach has turned many people off. JMO
Agree, Sharp used to seem the more reasonable of the two (not hard when you're opposite Bayless), but he went completely off the rails.  Frankly, it was a barely tolerable watch to begin with lol.