May 25, 2019, 02:54:48 AM

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91
Green Bay Packers News Talk / Re: Position look: WR
« Last post by RT on May 21, 2019, 08:48:10 AM »
Will be interesting to see.  To some degree, there is a lot of definition. 
1.  I think every pre-camp prediction will have to assume same front five:   Adams, Allison, ESB, MVS, J'Mon Moore
2.  Kumerow and Davis the two obvious lead competitors for the 6th spot. 

 Other thoughts:
1.  I assume every prediction will include 6 guys.  But they've sometimes carried more.  Between injury and other position groups that may not need volume, it's not implausible to carry 7.  Particularly if Davis is better viewed as a ST specialist competing with other ST-only guys. 
2.  A lot of these guy play ST.  I tend to think of a "target number" for a position group; but there are always a bunch of mish-mash guys from different position groups who are really better viewed as ST-position-group.  So hard for me to figure where Davis and Kumerow and JMon stack within the ST room?
3.  I think Crawfish makes an interesting point, that Davis might perhaps surprise... as a receiver?  With the collection of long, not-so-quick-or-shifty body types, Davis as a short, quick+shifty guy might perhaps be a total misfit, unable to fit into any of the standard plays.  Maybe undesirable to have a depth guy who can't next-man-up and fit any of the plays designed for the rotation regulars.  But, maybe being a different kind of guy will make him a unique fit for certain packages and plays?  And perhaps Crawfish is right, and somehow the revised offense will somehow scheme hiim open a little differently, and once given a step open then his speed will be able to keep him open?  I also think that while he's had 3 years, he was really undeveloped as a rookie, and then missed all of last camp and most of last season, including all but about 3 practices (they only get a few practices in-season, and MM usually used most of those front half...).  So in terms of WR-development/practice, last year was basically a totally lost non-factor.  So, maybe he was just starting to figure things out late year 2, and suddenly this camp and season we'll see that?  (Obviously not likely at all, presumably the guy just has no instincts and no real skills as a WR, doesn't read/feel zones, doesn't know how to set up and freeze defenders, and doesn't have great hands or the body balance that top receivers have.....  But it would be really fun if he did emerge.  And sometimes having unlikely candidates like this emerge and provide key contributions is kind of the unexpected thing that goes right for teams that end up having great seasons.) 

4.  It's routine to assume that Moore will make it based on his draft stock and some of his physical attributes, and on some report that he's motivated and worked hard this offseason.  (Don't all bubble guys?)  But I wonder whether, assuming he doesn't have a great camp, and continues to have the combination of bad hands and bad decision-making that he displayed last year, whether he might not then be perfectly safe to clear to practice squad?  **IF** they still like the tools and potential, but he's still not actually game-ready, I wonder whether practice squad might be both a fit, AND that his chances of going unclaimed might not be pretty good, so that the risk of trying to send him there might be negligible? 

5.  There is talk about bunching and different schemes to get guys open etc., we'll see whether any of that actually "works".  But to some degree, might some of the differences actually place a HIGHER value on football-smarts and "feel"?  I guess I'm wondering whether actually Kumerow might work well within the system, he seems to have good balance and feel for seams and zones and soft-spots etc..  MIght he actually have a shot to get some snaps and be a good, reliable workman? 

6.  There are exceptions, but in a group like WR, injury is opportunity, and those opportunities come often.  Last year Davis lost his opportunity to injury, and Allison's injury really opened up opportunity for ESB as well as MVS.  Whoever the top 6 guys are right now, pretty good likelihood that by opening day, at least one of those six will be hurt and the 7th guy will have a much wider window of opportunity.

Excellent job craig.

One of the things that gets lost every year with constructing the 53 man roster is the depth at WR. The last couple of years of Jeff Janis most would have him cut those years, but he was close to a roster lock for his ST's play. Teams are not keeping 6th or 7th WR's on the roster for their play from scrimmage, they are keeping those players if they excel on ST's. When teams cut their rosters to 53 there will probably be a 100 or more WR's floating around that can play from scrimmage. We see it in the draft every year, there were probably 20 draftable WR's in the draft this year that went undrafted and we will see bus loads of WR's released at cutdowns that can play effectively from scrimmage, those WR's are a dime a dozen. The ones that will be making the backend of rosters are the ones doing the little things, the dirty work on ST's.   
92
Green Bay Packers News Talk / Re: Position look: WR
« Last post by RT on May 21, 2019, 08:24:57 AM »
Davis does flash and tease as a returner (especially as a punt returner), but he also often makes boneheaded decisions at critical times. In fact Montgomery's poor decision to bring the ball out against the Rams reminded me a lot of Davis' decision-making. As a gunner his speed is his only asset - I believe he only has two career tackles.

Special teams are important and Davis is in the mix, but at best he is a bubble player who will have to earn a roster spot IMO.

Yes he will need to earn his spot, but you are selling short how good he was as a gunner. I crunched those numbers last off season on this forum and the 2nd half of the 2017 season when Davis and Janis teamed up as the gunners the Packers were the number one punt coverage unit in the NFL and no other team was even close. I am not going to re-do that exercise because it was time consuming and it is not that important for me to fight for Davis here, the parts I remember was something like 26 total return yards and over 60% forced fair catches. That is a lot of hidden yardage saved that most people are oblivious to.

Fans see great athletic numbers like Josh Jones and just assume he will be a great STer, but it is not always the case. It takes a different mind set to play ST's and be good at it and most don't have it, Davis does.
93
Green Bay Packers News Talk / Re: Position look: WR
« Last post by RT on May 21, 2019, 08:07:07 AM »
Trevor Davis made the roster for special teams. He is a decent returner and a solid gunner if needed. If u don’t think special teams are important then maybe you need to watch the 2018 season again. At a minimum there were several games lost in part due to poor special teams play. Had Davis been the returner against the rams it could have changed the complexion of the entire season. Also Davis is a much better fit for Lafleurs scheme. Motion offense with bunch formations better utilize physical tools and can minimize the need for technical and mental understanding of defenses which McCarthys scheme relied on

Spot on all the way around 'fish. Williams made several blunder as a punt returner last season, but oddly no one ever called him out on it. The mental error again the Rams changed their season, just get in Shields way and the Packers go to the half with the Rams having very little life and chance to win that game. As I also noted in the original post on this thread, I agree with you that he may well be a good fit offensively for MLF. Davis is not the new toy the fans wanted, but he is a new toy to MLF and I would not be surprised if he likes him.
94
Green Bay Packers News Talk / Re: Who's under contract
« Last post by RT on May 21, 2019, 07:48:21 AM »
It has been well documented since draft day that Josh Jones was a player that Gutey pounded the table for hard, but this guy seems to have the 10 cent head on him. The Packers played a ton of 3 safety defense last year and I believe that was the plan this year. Some people will want to claim Jones is playing LB, I don't care what people call him, but Pettine would be playing him and playing him in a spot to best use his talents. He could be a valuable player for the Packers defense, just not sure he is smart enough to figure that out. 
95
Green Bay Packers News Talk / Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Last post by craig on May 21, 2019, 07:32:11 AM »
Wow, if that's true that's really amazing.  Hard to even imagine a dumber decision than that.  Really bizarre. 

Who knows.  I don't understand the intricacies, or what coaches tell guys off-season.  I know in baseball, many teams will have a post-season consult/analysis, particularly with developmental minor leaguers, and let them know how they should prepare to be used, and what aspects of their game they need to work on and improve.  NFL has a different culture, so maybe no such thing.  But maybe they have, and he doesn't feel fit for whatever plans or usage they envision for him? 

When Pettine was hired, there was also considerable talk about how he and his system values smart guys.  I wonder if maybe Pettine just doesn't think Jones has the decision-making smarts to ever be a good player in the system?  And maybe Jones sees that and knows it too? 

Given how shallow the safety group is, and how VERY think the ILB group is, it seems like the Packers roster should be full of opportunity for Jones, perhaps more opportunity here than he might be likely to find anywhere else. 

So just seems like an incredibly bizarre choice to make.  Really weird.   
96
Green Bay Packers News Talk / Re: Position look: WR
« Last post by craig on May 21, 2019, 07:24:21 AM »
A tidbit from the morning news.
https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2019/05/21/packers-jmon-moore-foresees-fresh-start-matt-lafleurs-system/3744804002/

I wonder if moving to a new system isn't actually a disadvantage for Moore?  Yes, it's a clean slate for everybody, so that's good for him. 
But, assuming he's got less instinct and aptitude to pick up new stuff and new responsibilities than many of the other guys, might not a new scheme and new concepts/formations/responsibilities put him further behind rather than closing the gap?  Being perhaps both on the slow end class-room wise and perhaps kinda slow for on-field instincts and understanding of how to actually apply classroom stuff, that can't help a guy (*IF* both of those apply to Moore, I have no idea.) 

My sense is that ESB is very classroom quick, and may be quick at translating classroom-coaching to onfield-application.  I kind of have the sense that he might pick things up and adapt more quickly than either Moore or MVS?
97
Green Bay Packers News Talk / Re: Who's under contract
« Last post by Hands on May 21, 2019, 07:13:22 AM »
Doubt you see any comments from the GM office. JJ has to learn how to play in the pros.
98
Green Bay Packers News Talk / Re: Position look: WR
« Last post by craig on May 21, 2019, 07:12:31 AM »
Will be interesting to see.  To some degree, there is a lot of definition. 
1.  I think every pre-camp prediction will have to assume same front five:   Adams, Allison, ESB, MVS, J'Mon Moore
2.  Kumerow and Davis the two obvious lead competitors for the 6th spot. 

 Other thoughts:
1.  I assume every prediction will include 6 guys.  But they've sometimes carried more.  Between injury and other position groups that may not need volume, it's not implausible to carry 7.  Particularly if Davis is better viewed as a ST specialist competing with other ST-only guys. 
2.  A lot of these guy play ST.  I tend to think of a "target number" for a position group; but there are always a bunch of mish-mash guys from different position groups who are really better viewed as ST-position-group.  So hard for me to figure where Davis and Kumerow and JMon stack within the ST room?
3.  I think Crawfish makes an interesting point, that Davis might perhaps surprise... as a receiver?  With the collection of long, not-so-quick-or-shifty body types, Davis as a short, quick+shifty guy might perhaps be a total misfit, unable to fit into any of the standard plays.  Maybe undesirable to have a depth guy who can't next-man-up and fit any of the plays designed for the rotation regulars.  But, maybe being a different kind of guy will make him a unique fit for certain packages and plays?  And perhaps Crawfish is right, and somehow the revised offense will somehow scheme hiim open a little differently, and once given a step open then his speed will be able to keep him open?  I also think that while he's had 3 years, he was really undeveloped as a rookie, and then missed all of last camp and most of last season, including all but about 3 practices (they only get a few practices in-season, and MM usually used most of those front half...).  So in terms of WR-development/practice, last year was basically a totally lost non-factor.  So, maybe he was just starting to figure things out late year 2, and suddenly this camp and season we'll see that?  (Obviously not likely at all, presumably the guy just has no instincts and no real skills as a WR, doesn't read/feel zones, doesn't know how to set up and freeze defenders, and doesn't have great hands or the body balance that top receivers have.....  But it would be really fun if he did emerge.  And sometimes having unlikely candidates like this emerge and provide key contributions is kind of the unexpected thing that goes right for teams that end up having great seasons.) 

4.  It's routine to assume that Moore will make it based on his draft stock and some of his physical attributes, and on some report that he's motivated and worked hard this offseason.  (Don't all bubble guys?)  But I wonder whether, assuming he doesn't have a great camp, and continues to have the combination of bad hands and bad decision-making that he displayed last year, whether he might not then be perfectly safe to clear to practice squad?  **IF** they still like the tools and potential, but he's still not actually game-ready, I wonder whether practice squad might be both a fit, AND that his chances of going unclaimed might not be pretty good, so that the risk of trying to send him there might be negligible? 

5.  There is talk about bunching and different schemes to get guys open etc., we'll see whether any of that actually "works".  But to some degree, might some of the differences actually place a HIGHER value on football-smarts and "feel"?  I guess I'm wondering whether actually Kumerow might work well within the system, he seems to have good balance and feel for seams and zones and soft-spots etc..  MIght he actually have a shot to get some snaps and be a good, reliable workman? 

6.  There are exceptions, but in a group like WR, injury is opportunity, and those opportunities come often.  Last year Davis lost his opportunity to injury, and Allison's injury really opened up opportunity for ESB as well as MVS.  Whoever the top 6 guys are right now, pretty good likelihood that by opening day, at least one of those six will be hurt and the 7th guy will have a much wider window of opportunity. 
99
Green Bay Packers News Talk / Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Last post by Hands on May 21, 2019, 07:11:48 AM »
If he could grab a starting position, there are many teams that would look at him: Jacksonville, Dallas, and maybe even the Colts. As of right now.....hasn't proven he can start and play a solid position.
Sort of feel sorry for him. He's either getting bad advise or ignoring good advise. This isn't college anymore, it's a business. And if you want to play, you need to prove it.
100
Green Bay Packers News Talk / Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Last post by The GM on May 21, 2019, 06:55:23 AM »
According to Demofsky, Jones is skipping the vol OTAs and is working out in Florida and hopes to be traded.  Have to keep an eye on this one. 
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