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General Category => Rant and Vent => Topic started by: Twain on September 06, 2015, 10:33:31 AM

Title: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: Twain on September 06, 2015, 10:33:31 AM
I thought I would put these thoughts down now, because a week from now they would be viewed as sour grapes.  It is an opinion that I have been working on for a while.  I suspect we will start slow on defense this year, not because of the run defense, but instead I believe that pass defense will be weak.  It would be tempting to pass this off as inexperience this year, and while I believe that will play a part, I think there is another issue as well.

The question is:  Do we have a great scheme, but execution is poor due to lack of coaching/poor coaching on fundamentals?

It seems to me we spend a great deal of time in zone defense.  My understanding of the fire-zone scheme that Capers employs, the zone is necessary backing up the blitz due to the vacancies created by the blitz.  Fair enough.

When watching our players in zone coverage, they clearly have been coached to keep their eyes in the backfield, reading the QB, preparing to get a break on the ball.  The problem I see is that they focus so much on the offensive backfield that they lose awareness of where the receivers are and therefore end up far enough away that they can't challenge the catch.  They can't get there in time, and the receiver has an easy time finding the open seam in the zone as our players sit on a spot. Top QB's do well due to their ability to look the DB's off of where they will throw.

Other technique issues show up as well.  The issue in preseason this year is they don't have a system down for dealing with congestion or pick plays to make sure that each receiver has coverage.  Some of this clearly is a lack of playing time together which should improve with time.  I suspect that some of this is also lack of time on coaching the details of fundamentals to play the scheme.

Contrast this with the articles coming out on Seattle and their pass defense:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/06/sports/football/cornerbacks-for-seahawks-take-charge-by-being-patient.html
http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seahawks/secret-to-seahawks-cornerbacks-success-they-dont-dance/
http://www.fieldgulls.com/football-breakdowns/2015/5/29/8688055/pete-carrolls-seahawks-richard-sherman-cary-williams

My thesis is that the scheme isn't that complex in Seattle.  Carroll as a former defensive back has obsessed about technique, and made it a focus of the group. They pick guys that fit their system and coach them on the details of the position- hand placement, footwork, timing- that lead to winning the one-on one battles to make them a great defense.  There is a tradeoff to complex schemes- they require much of the limited practice time teaching the scheme and that leaves less time for the fundamentals of coverage and tackling.  The time limits on practice placed by the CBA makes it worse.

In summary, I am just wondering if we need less scheme and more time on fundamentals. I would love to see the team prove me wrong in the coming weeks.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: walker16 on September 06, 2015, 12:15:27 PM
Very good post. No need for it to be in the rant & vent section.

Fundamentals 1st applies from youth sports to the professional level.

Give me a senior heavy team & I'll expand the play book.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: dannobanano on September 06, 2015, 01:52:56 PM
Success or lack of success in the secondary will hinge upon what kind of pass rush the Packers can produce.

Once they install game plans, game by game, we might find the secondary will perform their tasks adequately.

Don't forget, that last year after they moved Matthews to ILB that the Packers defense improved to a top tier ranked defense.

Their final 8 games with Matthews in the middle would have made them the #5 defense in total yds allowed and #9 defense in points allowed.

Matthews versatility, combined with what seems to be improvements from several players (Pennel, Mulumba, Elliott........for starters), might just be enough to take the pressure off of the secondary as it grows into itself.

Also, let's not forget, the only starter in the secondary that's being replaced is T-Will, and Hayward is capable of filling that role adequately.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: Starr2Max on September 06, 2015, 02:24:51 PM
As a "draft and develop team" I believe that we are almost predestined to start slow.  It takes time  for the rookies and second year players to be taught both the fundamentals and scheme, then for all of the new pieces to meld together into a cohesive unit.  This year I expect a lot of hiccups in the secondary and the linebackers especially.  Could the scheme be too complex for a D&D team, perhaps.  But by the end of the year we were arguably the best team in football (except for Special Teams).  There were a few defensive problems in the "Great Collapse" but the defense could be argued was the least culpable unit.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: dannobanano on September 06, 2015, 05:38:15 PM
As a "draft and develop team" I believe that we are almost predestined to start slow.  It takes time  for the rookies and second year players to be taught both the fundamentals and scheme, then for all of the new pieces to meld together into a cohesive unit.  This year I expect a lot of hiccups in the secondary and the linebackers especially.  Could the scheme be too complex for a D&D team, perhaps.  But by the end of the year we were arguably the best team in football (except for Special Teams).  There were a few defensive problems in the "Great Collapse" but the defense could be argued was the least culpable unit.

Agree regarding secondary.

Disagree regarding LB's.

The only new ILB/OLB that has been added to the 53 man roster is ILB Jake Ryan, and he will see very limited PT for a good part of the season, barring injuries. Palmer would be the next ? when it comes to being insync, and he's in his 3rd yr, but only 2nd at ILB.

The secondary has 3 rookies and a 3rd yr player (1st yr starter) with Hayward. They will have a much more distinctive learning curve to chase.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: B on September 08, 2015, 05:24:52 AM
There is nothing ranting in your well written opinion post Twain. It was well reasoned and articulated.

I think the answer to your question: "Are we a well coached team?" is yes, clearly we (the Packers) are a well coached team. A team can not consistently be among the youngest in the league, yet win their division each year and be a legitimate Super Bowl contender each year without being well coached.

I can already hear a chorus that wants to retort, "it is all about Aaron Rodgers." Yes, Aaron helps greatly, but my point still stands. There have been many outstanding QB's who never got a ring and suffered through tough seasons. IMO successful draft and develop teams rely upon good coaching.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: B on September 08, 2015, 06:14:40 AM
Fun related factoids:

In Capers’ six seasons as the Packers defensive coordinator, 20 different Packers have sacked a Bears quarterback a total of 37 times in 13 games. And in those 13 games the Packers have won 11 of them - including in the NFC Championship game in Chicago.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: PackerYakker on September 09, 2015, 09:34:46 PM

I think the answer to your question: "Are we a well coached team?" is yes, clearly we (the Packers) are a well coached team.
A team can not consistently be among the youngest in the league, yet win their division each year and be a legitimate Super Bowl contender each year without being well coached.

Except that he's talking about the defense specifically, not the team in general.  Your references to winning division, etc. are irrelevant to the question actually posed. 

Quote
I can already hear a chorus that wants to retort, "it is all about Aaron Rodgers." Yes, Aaron helps greatly, but my point still stands. There have been many outstanding QB's who never got a ring and suffered through tough seasons.

No, your "point" doesn't stand. At all.

How does the failure of other great QB's to win a ring (playing on unique teams, against unique competition, etc.) have any bearing on whether Aaron Rodgers has carried this particular team? It doesn't. And he has.

Quote
IMO successful draft and develop teams rely upon good coaching.

Do you guys somehow get paid every time you work the phrase "draft & develop" into a post? For you and everyone else who seems to think that the phrase refers to something specific about the team building approach in GB:

EVERY SINGLE TEAM IS A DRAFT & DEVELOP TEAM. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

All teams draft and develop their players, with an eye towards retaining the better ones. The only difference between teams is how FA risk averse they are. Some teams show little caution with free agents, while some are cartoonishly averse, even in the face of glaring holes. 

"Draft & Develop" is a meaningless phrase. It's like saying my car is a "wheels & engine" car.

Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: Pugger on September 10, 2015, 06:49:40 AM

I think the answer to your question: "Are we a well coached team?" is yes, clearly we (the Packers) are a well coached team.
A team can not consistently be among the youngest in the league, yet win their division each year and be a legitimate Super Bowl contender each year without being well coached.

Except that he's talking about the defense specifically, not the team in general.  Your references to winning division, etc. are irrelevant to the question actually posed. 

Quote
I can already hear a chorus that wants to retort, "it is all about Aaron Rodgers." Yes, Aaron helps greatly, but my point still stands. There have been many outstanding QB's who never got a ring and suffered through tough seasons.

No, your "point" doesn't stand. At all.

How does the failure of other great QB's to win a ring (playing on unique teams, against unique competition, etc.) have any bearing on whether Aaron Rodgers has carried this particular team? It doesn't. And he has.

Quote
IMO successful draft and develop teams rely upon good coaching.

Do you guys somehow get paid every time you work the phrase "draft & develop" into a post? For you and everyone else who seems to think that the phrase refers to something specific about the team building approach in GB:

EVERY SINGLE TEAM IS A DRAFT & DEVELOP TEAM. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

All teams draft and develop their players, with an eye towards retaining the better ones. The only difference between teams is how FA risk averse they are. Some teams show little caution with free agents, while some are cartoonishly averse, even in the face of glaring holes. 

"Draft & Develop" is a meaningless phrase. It's like saying my car is a "wheels & engine" car.

Yes every team does draft & develop but not to the extent we do.  Other teams rely heavily on FA to fill out weak spots on their rosters.  We can add on one hand how many players we have from other clubs on our roster and one of them was a former draft pick.  Our biggest problem is we've struck out on defensive players - mostly due to injury - and that has killed us.  Had J. Harrell and/or Worthy not flamed out our D wouldn't be so precarious.  D. Jones can't stay healthy either and Raji needs to return to form.  It really hurt to lose Collins too.  Let's hope all these youngsters recently drafted will turn out to be real players.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: B on September 10, 2015, 11:06:06 AM

Except that he's talking about the defense specifically, not the team in general.  Your references to winning division, etc. are irrelevant to the question actually posed.

Do you guys somehow get paid every time you work the phrase "draft & develop" into a post? For you and everyone else who seems to think that the phrase refers to something specific about the team building approach in GB:

EVERY SINGLE TEAM IS A DRAFT & DEVELOP TEAM. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

All teams draft and develop their players, with an eye towards retaining the better ones. The only difference between teams is how FA risk averse they are. Some teams show little caution with free agents, while some are cartoonishly averse, even in the face of glaring holes. 

"Draft & Develop" is a meaningless phrase. It's like saying my car is a "wheels & engine" car.

Cute! Never mind that the part you exclude with your etc. is that the Packers are annually one of the youngest teams in the NFL (3rd this season) and yet are consistently considered a Super Bowl contender.

Yes Moron, I get paid a thousand dollars every time I say draft and develop. Cha-ching... ::)

Try reading this really slow and perhaps you will understand:

Yes, every team drafts players and tries to develop them, few but the most successful ones(Green Bay, Baltimore, Indianapolis) make a commitment to stockpiling as many draft picks as possible, turning over a percentage of their roster each season and putting the onus on the coaching staff to get the new kids ready to play immediately.

Excluding to the ignorant, Dom Capers is widely respected as one of the great defensive minds in the game. Joe Whitt Jr. is a great corner-back coach and is one of the hot young coaches in the NFL, teams ask to talk to Perry and Moss each year and the only reason Mike Trgovac is not a defensive coordinator is because he stepped back from having the job to be able to enjoy the game and his family more. Since Trgovac took over as defensive line coach in 2009, the Packers rank No. 5 in the NFL in sacks (245) and tied for No. 6 in the NFL in rushing TDs allowed (60). Green Bay has finished in the top 10 in the league in sacks in four of the last five seasons (2010, 2012-14).

I respect differences of opinions, but you literally offer none. This is the rant and vent section, so if you want to make stupid assertions it is your right, but don't expect anyone with half a brain to accept your unsupported, simpleton assertions just because you say its so.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: Shinesman on September 13, 2015, 07:20:29 AM
Twain, I understand your thinking completely. Lack of proper technique has been apparent in the DB's for a number of seasons now. I complained about it plenty here on PC the past couple season. In addition to the poor awareness they also tend to have really bad reaction in one on one coverage. Shields is our number one guy and often doesn't get his head around to locate the ball in the air. He runs step for step with a guy looking right at him and when the receiver looks up for the ball, Shields doesn't turn and locate the ball, and the receiver makes a play because Shields didn't properly defends the pass. The DB's sometimes get into perfect position and then follow that up with a terribly timed jump. Just so many things done fundamentally wrong its painful to see sometimes. 
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: Scott1956 on September 14, 2015, 02:39:32 PM
A well coached defense is rarely out of position. The Packer defense seems to be out of position a lot! And this is not new, it's been going on for years. 189 yards against a Chicago team that has a poor O=Line! These defensive players are either uncoachable or dumb or they are not being coached correctly! One last thing. Why is it we have to have this discussion every year? Answer: Because the defense has been really bad for years! This was the Bears, with their #1 WR at less than 100%, an O-Line that has new players on it, and Cutler. Who thought they WEREN'T going to try and run the ball? Capers! Because he played nickle most of the game!
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: cpk1994 on September 14, 2015, 04:31:46 PM
Cannot say the team is well coached on defense because we have been seeing the same garbage every year since the Super Bowl win.  Once again we were told the defense would improve. Once again the defense is absolutely putrid. Front 7 was bad last year. Did nothing to address it, but were told this would be better. Still bad. After this many years of bad defense, one can only conclude that it isn't the players anymore. it's the coaching. Therefore, Capers needs to be shown the door. The whole defensive coaching staff needs to be shown the door. It is time to stop the acceptance of a D that continually gets run over.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: Shinesman on September 14, 2015, 08:49:08 PM
In the case of the defense, its always drafting young players who don't really fit the role (DE to play OLB, DT's to 3-4 DE) and counting on the 1-2 year jumps, 2-3 year jumps. By the time these guys learn to play their new position and hone their skills, its off to FA and we are back again relying on a new square peg to make the round hole jump. Arod isn't going to be here to carry this team on his back forever. Without him this team is a 4 win team. They have to start getting serious instead of grabbing guys like Thronton, Bradford, Jones, Perry and asking them to learn a whole new position. Its getting older than Arod.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: SSG on September 18, 2015, 06:36:20 PM
Not sure how anyone can look at this defense, a defense that makes the same mistakes year after year after year and come away with the opinion that they are well coached.  The same rush defense that was ran all over by Chicago last week is the same run defense that missed 14 tackles on 1 single player in the last game they played before that.  Is tackling really that impossible to teach? 

Its no coincidence that the last time we had a Super Bowl caliber defense is the last time we actually made it to the game.  Its pretty clear that defense wins championships and we simply don't have a defense that shown its capable of doing so.  For as good as this defense has been at getting turnovers and sacks, its been absolutely putrid at stopping the run for the better part of the last 4 years with absolutely no improvement.  I guess some have no interest in holding people accountable as its easier to look at a selected few stats and make a laundry list of excuses.

If we tackle on Sunday like we tackled last Sunday, Seattle is going to walk over us without a fight just like they did in last year's opener.  They really need to bring someone in that can teach this defense how to tackle as its pretty evident this current defensive staff is inept at it.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: Shinesman on September 18, 2015, 08:51:09 PM
I am wondering if they do pull out this win, how many will jump up stating this defense is good we were just impatient or ignorant. I see it here all the time, you have a mountain of evidence over multiple seasons to back up your point, then a one game anomaly makes you an idiot according to the insanely over-homered crowd.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: PackerYakker on September 19, 2015, 12:19:30 PM
Not sure how anyone can look at this defense, a defense that makes the same mistakes year after year after year and come away with the opinion that they are well coached. 

This particular problem has as much to do with personnel as with coaching. Long-standing mediocrities at multiple positions have lowered the ceiling on run defense efficiency.

At the key ILB position, there hasn't been a real force since Desmond Bishop ('10-'11), let alone a pair of strong players. On the DL, they've generally had adequate run personnel but none of the complete players that can both collapse and pursue. In the secondary, they've had nothing more than average tacklers at both CB spots ever since Woodson was moved.

Add that all up and you've got a recipe for an average run defense, no matter who's coaching it.

Of course Capers should be held accountable to some degree, it's his job to scheme around all shortcomings. Still, the 50 yard completion vs. Shields nicely highlights what he's up against. Shields gets a minor shove at the top of the route which, because he's not at all physical, creates enough separation to turn what should be a routine pass breakup into a huge gain. CHI's game plan involved attacking our #1 CB and making him tackle!   

TT has served up a steady diet of average personnel on the defensive side for years and Capers has understandably struggled to turn it into something more. It seems that Capers has generally meet what should have been low expectations.   
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: B on October 13, 2015, 07:09:36 AM
I wonder if folks who posted in this thread have reconsidered any of their thoughts posted in this thread???

(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/56690947.jpg)
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: golfman on October 13, 2015, 10:35:29 AM
Cannot say the team is well coached on defense because we have been seeing the same garbage every year since the Super Bowl win.  Once again we were told the defense would improve. Once again the defense is absolutely putrid. Front 7 was bad last year. Did nothing to address it, but were told this would be better. Still bad. After this many years of bad defense, one can only conclude that it isn't the players anymore. it's the coaching. Therefore, Capers needs to be shown the door. The whole defensive coaching staff needs to be shown the door. It is time to stop the acceptance of a D that continually gets run over.


Not sure how this can be when the NFL Network is discussing the Packers defense as the BEST in the NFC? How can this be CPK?

http://www.nfl.com/videos/green-bay-packers/0ap3000000555697/Are-the-Packers-the-best-defense-in-the-league
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: claymaker on October 13, 2015, 11:55:01 AM
I wonder if folks who posted in this thread have reconsidered any of their thoughts posted in this thread???

No. Why would they? They've been proven incredibly wrong so far, and won't say anything until someone runs all over the field against them or they give up 40 points in a single game.

All it takes is one game or playoff game for the knee jerkers to come forth. My guess is it won't be because of the defense this year. It'll be about how the offensive line is terrible and a LT needs to be signed ASAP, or how poorly the WRs are, or how Rodgers is beginning to decline in his "old age."
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: Kepler on October 13, 2015, 02:21:48 PM
Worst in the league! Period!
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: walker16 on October 13, 2015, 02:50:30 PM
No
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: B on October 14, 2015, 05:51:37 AM
Worst in the league! Period!
I assume you wanted to put a  sarcasm with this post Brother Kepler
No

No what? No, we're not the worst in the league or No, we're not a well coached team?
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: Kepler on October 14, 2015, 08:27:46 AM
Worst in the league! Period!
I assume you wanted to put a  sarcasm with this post Brother Kepler

Yes. My bad.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: walker16 on October 14, 2015, 01:50:40 PM
Not difficult...read your question.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: B on October 14, 2015, 02:34:43 PM
Not difficult...read your question.
Got it. Probably a combination of how easy it is to get lost in these longer threads, and my being dense sometimes. :-)
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: Bignutz on October 19, 2015, 09:46:47 AM
Doesn't it bother anyone that in the San Diego game we knew that Rivers was going to throw the ball almost every play yet we still had a hard time stopping them.  I think we have a pretty good defense but this concerns me. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: B on October 20, 2015, 06:44:57 AM
Dom Capers post San Diego:

“I don’t like the yardage, obviously, but I liked the way our guys competed because, to me, good football teams find a way to win. You do it different ways each and every week. You’ve seen over the last two, three weeks to where we’ve won different ways. I always tells guys, ‘Winners find a way to win.’ You never know what play’s going to make the difference. Yeah, I think that we can take and learn and I think in the long run we’ll take some positives out of this thing yesterday.”

“Obviously, our No. 1 point of emphasis is scoring defense. I just think that that’s where it all starts. To be a good scoring defensive team, you’ve got to play well in the red zone. People are going to get down in the red zone on you and you’ve got to try to keep them kicking field goals.”


By the Way: Over the last 3 games (including S.D.),  the Packers three (3) touchdowns in 12 red-zone possessions is tied for the best in the league during that span at 25%.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: Twain on October 20, 2015, 07:53:25 AM
I wonder if folks who posted in this thread have reconsidered any of their thoughts posted in this thread???

As the OP, and because I respect you as a poster, I will respond to this question because despite the location in rant and vent, I think there are some interesting football points to be discussed as opposed to the emotional argumentation that so often takes place of late.

First off, let me say that my last line of the original post is true and I did indeed admit that I was wrong in another thread, which in true form was jumped by someone who just wanted to argue.  I have no problem admitting when I am wrong, and in the case of the improving defense, nothing makes me happier.

In some ways though, the original post from the end of preseason is not that far off, in that Capers even admits that he has simplified both the scheme and the calls in order to create a faster defense with fewer mental errors. 

       http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/dom-capers-using-brand-new-play-calls-to-simplify-the-defense-b99591848z1-331183831.html

Second, I would say that the play of the defense on Sunday was more of what I expected for the first part of the season.  My error was that I didn't recognize the limitations of the passing attacks that we would see to start the season-- The bears without their first round pick and an injured Alshon Jeffrey, the ineffective nature of Jimmie Graham in Seattle or Maclin in KC.

The experience with Demarious Randall on Allen this last Sunday was more of what I was expecting early in the year.  As much natural talent as Demarious Randall has, we saw him get his introduction to what it is like to play against elite QB's in the NFL.  He is clearly going to be a player, but he needs work on his technique, which is expected for a rookie.  Watching him Sunday, his technique is based on great movement skills, being able to stay with his man and break on the ball.  What was lacking on Sunday though was the ability to get physical at the line and prevent Allen from getting a clean break off the line.

With a blitz heavy defense, preventing a clean break denies Rivers the hot route and denies him the ability to get the ball out before the blitzing player gets there. 

This was a great game for Randall and his coaches to identify the next step up in his game and where he needs to improve in his transition to NFL corner.  He already has the ability to position himself to break on routes in zone, and we have seen that many time this year including the key last play of the game,  He also has shown he can run well and attack the arms for the pass breakup on the deep ball.  Now it is time to see if the coaches can teach him to jam at the line.

As an aside, I wonder if Gunter might have been a better option on Allen due to his more physical style at the line. I would guess that Capers values Randall's speed and ability to break on the route in zone more than Gunter's ability to play press man at this point.

I still stand on my hypothesis that the scheme is only as good as the technique employed by the players, and that scheme can get too complicated and take away from practice of fundamentals.  I think Capers has surprised me this year with putting together a defense based on his players talents and putting them in a position to play a technically sound game.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: The GM on October 20, 2015, 08:02:23 AM
I dont think its a coincidence that when Raji plays well, this defense plays well.  He had a good Super Bowl year, had a lull  in production a couple of years, and started out good this year.  Sounds like the Packer defense the past few years too.  When Raji comes to play, this defense plays much better IMO.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: Twain on October 20, 2015, 08:40:18 AM
I dont think its a coincidence that when Raji plays well, this defense plays well.  He had a good Super Bowl year, had a lull  in production a couple of years, and started out good this year.  Sounds like the Packer defense the past few years too.  When Raji comes to play, this defense plays much better IMO.

I agree.

With Raji this year, Capers is playing him largely in one gap assignments which is more to his strength.  IMO, coming out of Boston College his strength was his quickness for a big man.  Playing a two gap assignment nullifies that to an extent in that rather that using that quickness to beat the OL at the snap, he had to engage the OL and shed him which just isn't him.  This heavier dose of one gapping really fits Raji and Daniels natural abilities. 
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: golfman on November 08, 2015, 03:48:33 PM
All I want for Christmas is a de-fense that competes! A defense that competes................. you know the rest of the song.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: dannobanano on November 08, 2015, 05:34:33 PM
All I want for Christmas is a de-fense that competes! A defense that competes................. you know the rest of the song.

You want the "whistle Merry Christmas". Right!?

 ;)
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: claymaker on November 09, 2015, 07:54:20 AM
In summary, I am just wondering if we need less scheme and more time on fundamentals. I would love to see the team prove me wrong in the coming weeks.

Name one team that practices fundamentals more than Green Bay.

When watching our players in zone coverage, they clearly have been coached to keep their eyes in the backfield, reading the QB, preparing to get a break on the ball.  The problem I see is that they focus so much on the offensive backfield that they lose awareness of where the receivers are and therefore end up far enough away that they can't challenge the catch.  They can't get there in time, and the receiver has an easy time finding the open seam in the zone as our players sit on a spot. Top QB's do well due to their ability to look the DB's off of where they will throw.

That's a player execution problem not a lack of coaching fundamentals on how to play zone defense.

Coaches can coach all they want, but when the players don't execute the play usually fails. Some people might scoff at the idea of execution being more important than scheme but it is absolutely true. Scheme should be the last thing anyone is worried about. Which begs the question why does everyone always want to fire Capers? Oh that's right, you just want someone to blame and he's the perennial target.

Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: Twain on November 10, 2015, 06:49:57 AM


 Which begs the question why does everyone always want to fire Capers? Oh that's right, you just want someone to blame and he's the perennial target.

Wow, digging back 2 months for a cheap shot without context?  You used to be a better poster than that.

I just disagree with your take.  Coaches are supposed to be teachers, so I believe that good ones can coach up fundamentals and improve execution. Lack of execution can be a result of poor coaching as well as poor talent.  You disagree, and thats OK.  I am not sure either of us know how much time any team spends on fundamentals, but I would point out that in the first game after the post you mentioned- the Chicago game- missed tackles were a huge issue.  With the current collective bargaining agreement, time in pads is limited so I believe fundamentals often do get overlooked.  It seems there is a tradeoff now between scheme installation and fundamental work because of these limits.

LeRoy Butler agrees with me- he pointed out that if a defensive back goes up to the line, he should try and get his hands on the receiver and obstruct his route off the line.  Are the packers currently doing that?  Maybe when the players get to the NFL they have a skill set that is set in stone and can't be taught, but I don't buy it.

The other issue with complexity of scheme, is that with practice limitations, there is also less time to drill on the decision making, to build the instant reaction to offensive action.  It increases the possibility of blown coverages.  We saw the blown coverage issue this week with subs playing for injured players.  Football eventually boils down to winning one on one matches, and scheme puts players in position to use fundamentals to win those match ups.  If scheme is too complex and coverages are blown, they never get in that position.

I don't believe I ever said fire Capers.  I believe I said I thought they needed more solid fundamentals and less scheme complexity.  Try not to put words in other people's mouths.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: claymaker on November 10, 2015, 09:03:36 AM


 Which begs the question why does everyone always want to fire Capers? Oh that's right, you just want someone to blame and he's the perennial target.

Wow, digging back 2 months for a cheap shot without context?  You used to be a better poster than that.

I just disagree with your take.  Coaches are supposed to be teachers, so I believe that good ones can coach up fundamentals and improve execution. Lack of execution can be a result of poor coaching as well as poor talent.  You disagree, and thats OK.  I am not sure either of us know how much time any team spends on fundamentals, but I would point out that in the first game after the post you mentioned- the Chicago game- missed tackles were a huge issue.  With the current collective bargaining agreement, time in pads is limited so I believe fundamentals often do get overlooked.  It seems there is a tradeoff now between scheme installation and fundamental work because of these limits.

LeRoy Butler agrees with me- he pointed out that if a defensive back goes up to the line, he should try and get his hands on the receiver and obstruct his route off the line.  Are the packers currently doing that?  Maybe when the players get to the NFL they have a skill set that is set in stone and can't be taught, but I don't buy it.

The other issue with complexity of scheme, is that with practice limitations, there is also less time to drill on the decision making, to build the instant reaction to offensive action.  It increases the possibility of blown coverages.  We saw the blown coverage issue this week with subs playing for injured players.  Football eventually boils down to winning one on one matches, and scheme puts players in position to use fundamentals to win those match ups.  If scheme is too complex and coverages are blown, they never get in that position.

I don't believe I ever said fire Capers.  I believe I said I thought they needed more solid fundamentals and less scheme complexity.  Try not to put words in other people's mouths.

I'm not digging, and it's perfectly in context. The defense is getting a lot of scrutiny right now. Some deserved and some not. Capers and his coaching staff are part of that.

At the start of every practice the Packers run some sort of fundamental drill, I read that on Ask Vic somewhere. Bringing up fundamentals just kinda bugs me. You said so yourself we have no way to know.

The scheme isn't that complex. They rarely are. We're going to do this. If they do this, we do that instead. The best schemes are simple.

The fire Capers comment is not towards you. It's towards everyone who is in that boat. Look around the board there are plenty of posters who have said "fire Capers." You do a much better job than most at looking for someone to blame. I don't think I've ever seen you flat out blame Capers or someone without good reasoning behind it. You'll have to forgive me for putting you in their tent. Sometimes I just quote and pretend it's from the general message of the day.

I also dislike getting into debates about this stuff. It's either the coach's fault or the players. Either way someone is not doing their job and everyone has put their blame on someone. Then we get to trying to solve the problem and one side says get better players and the other side says get better coaches. By both of those suggestions we are either getting a new 20-30 players every year or a new coaching staff. How many teams or businesses in the world do well with that much turnover?

Is it time for a new DC and defensive staff? You'll have to forgive me again, but that does seem like the general thesis of this thread. Who knows, so stop trying to prove it.
Title: Re: Defense: Are we a well coached team?
Post by: Twain on November 10, 2015, 09:40:47 AM

I'm not digging, and it's perfectly in context. The defense is getting a lot of scrutiny right now. Some deserved and some not. Capers and his coaching staff are part of that.

At the start of every practice the Packers run some sort of fundamental drill, I read that on Ask Vic somewhere. Bringing up fundamentals just kinda bugs me. You said so yourself we have no way to know.

The scheme isn't that complex. They rarely are. We're going to do this. If they do this, we do that instead. The best schemes are simple.

The fire Capers comment is not towards you. It's towards everyone who is in that boat. Look around the board there are plenty of posters who have said "fire Capers." You do a much better job than most at looking for someone to blame. I don't think I've ever seen you flat out blame Capers or someone without good reasoning behind it. You'll have to forgive me for putting you in their tent. Sometimes I just quote and pretend it's from the general message of the day.

I also dislike getting into debates about this stuff. It's either the coach's fault or the players. Either way someone is not doing their job and everyone has put their blame on someone. Then we get to trying to solve the problem and one side says get better players and the other side says get better coaches. By both of those suggestions we are either getting a new 20-30 players every year or a new coaching staff. How many teams or businesses in the world do well with that much turnover?

Is it time for a new DC and defensive staff? You'll have to forgive me again, but that does seem like the general thesis of this thread. Who knows, so stop trying to prove it.

You will have to forgive me, but that is clearly not the thesis of the thread. 


My thesis is that the scheme isn't that complex in Seattle.  Carroll as a former defensive back has obsessed about technique, and made it a focus of the group. They pick guys that fit their system and coach them on the details of the position- hand placement, footwork, timing- that lead to winning the one-on one battles to make them a great defense.  There is a tradeoff to complex schemes- they require much of the limited practice time teaching the scheme and that leaves less time for the fundamentals of coverage and tackling.  The time limits on practice placed by the CBA makes it worse.

In summary, I am just wondering if we need less scheme and more time on fundamentals. I would love to see the team prove me wrong in the coming weeks.

Not trying to prove anything.  Just tried to start a conversation in the pre season.  You say you don't like to debate this stuff, but you went back a found a post from preseason to start a debate, misquoted it, and ignored several interval posts which changes the context, and then offer a backhanded explanation of why your over reading of the intent is not what it is.  I posted this in rant and vent so that posters who didn't want to debate it could ignore it.

You say it yourself, the best schemes are simple, so we agree on that.

I also agree that the defense gets a lot of scrutiny lately, some deserved, some not. 

I disagree that we can't post our thoughts on it.  I have posted my thoughts on it.