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General Category => NFL Talk => Free Agency => Topic started by: phanatic1 on March 30, 2018, 09:56:31 AM

Title: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: phanatic1 on March 30, 2018, 09:56:31 AM
Jeff Janis has signed with the Cleveland Browns.  That Packer connection is at it again.  No report on a contract yet, but not a real shocker here.  Will leave a hole in special teams that is for sure. 
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: WTX_Cheese on March 30, 2018, 09:58:20 AM
Excellent gunner, but that only has so much value. I wish he could have developed into more of a receiver!
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: scoremore on March 30, 2018, 11:22:23 AM
His loss will be felt on special teams.  Don't understand why they couldn't develop him as a receiver.  Wonder if Aaron just didn't like the kid.  When pressed into service he performed.  Route running was that the issue?  Was hoping they would bring him back.  He never really was given an opportunity IMO.
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: dannobanano on March 30, 2018, 11:29:25 AM
I wish him all the best in CLEV.

Nice kid.
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: RT on March 30, 2018, 12:37:14 PM
That is disappointing news to me. He saved a lot of hidden yardage for the Packers with his coverage. The Packers gave up a total of 164 return yards on punts for the whole season(the Seahawks often toted unit gave up 482). Janis was involved in helping cause 24 fair catches. We think is no big deal until the other team is returning one for a TD in a tight game. Also had over 100 yard recieving on one drive in a playoff game when Rodgers had no other choice but to throw him the ball. The coverage unit got worse today.
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: Shinesman on March 30, 2018, 12:54:03 PM
He gets written off because we trust the staff's judgment and simply look at volume of plays vs production. I noticed a lot of his opportunities were on running plays. I also think his special teams value is being understated. I mean how long was Jarrett Bush on this team for his special teams presence, which wasn't nearly as high as Janis. I really think someone just didn't like him very much to have never been given the chance. Hope he has a good time in Cleveland and can break out there. I saw a tweet on the team stream, he never complained about the clear lack of opportunities on offense, just showed up and busted his tail to be one of the best gunners in the league. I'll miss him
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: The GM on March 30, 2018, 01:55:47 PM
Excellent gunner, but that only has so much value. I wish he could have developed into more of a receiver!

Janis never developed as a WR.   He was the same WR3 years ago, as he is today.  He has good straight line speed, but looked like a 80 year old man coming in and out of his cuts.  It took him forever to do a cut, he had to slow down, cut and get back to speed.  It was very choppy, and NFL DBs would be all over him on cutting routes.  A lot of your taller track type guys have the same issue.   Other than a go or fly route he never really developed.

He'll be missed on ST, but I like the move.  I think Gutes thinking move up or move out.  After last year, I think he really got a wake up call on the talent on this roster.   I hope Trevor Davis is taking notes.  They need players to develop into contributors,  ST can buy you some time, but you need to progress at your position.  Is Davis progressing as a WR?   He'll be under the microscope this year IMO.     
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: scoremore on March 30, 2018, 02:46:07 PM
Excellent gunner, but that only has so much value. I wish he could have developed into more of a receiver!

Janis never developed as a WR.   He was the same WR3 years ago, as he is today.  He has good straight line speed, but looked like a 80 year old man coming in and out of his cuts.  It took him forever to do a cut, he had to slow down, cut and get back to speed.  It was very choppy, and NFL DBs would be all over him on cutting routes.  A lot of your taller track type guys have the same issue.   Other than a go or fly route he never really developed.

He'll be missed on ST, but I like the move.  I think Gutes thinking move up or move out.  After last year, I think he really got a wake up call on the talent on this roster.   I hope Trevor Davis is taking notes.  They need players to develop into contributors,  ST can buy you some time, but you need to progress at your position.  Is Davis progressing as a WR?   He'll be under the microscope this year IMO.   

Thanks for the analysis GM.  Makes sense...
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: ricky on March 30, 2018, 03:03:46 PM
Janis was a fan favorite for some reason from the moment he was drafted. And he never developed as a receiver, but found a spot on ST's. Personally, I would have kept him around, similar to what the Packers did with Jarrett Bush. A liability on the offense, but very good on ST's.
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: Kepler on March 30, 2018, 03:38:43 PM
I think Bush was more competent on defense than Janis was on offense.
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: Gregg on March 30, 2018, 06:10:53 PM
The Browns are in drive mode man.

Janis is one of the best ST players in the NFC.  The guy is a first rate gunner and he can return kicks also.  We will miss him.

He will probably improve as a WR there also. 

Did we let him get away for nada?
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: craig on March 30, 2018, 06:43:34 PM
Seems an odd fit for Cleveland.  I'd thought with a million high draft picks, that their 53-man roster would be flush with young prospects with chances to be more than a gunner.  If I was them, I'd be reluctant to cut a D+D prospect with a chance to become a meaningful snaps player for a veteran gunner. 
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: ricky on March 30, 2018, 07:17:55 PM
The Browns are in drive mode man.

Janis is one of the best ST players in the NFC.  The guy is a first rate gunner and he can return kicks also.  We will miss him.

He will probably improve as a WR there also.  Why?

Did we let him get away for nada? Yes. He was a free agent. Maybe they should have held out for Cleveland's #!?
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: LMG on March 31, 2018, 07:38:14 AM
Question?


If Janis, the WR, was as 'special' as some have maintained since he came into the League why were the Browns seemingly the only team interested?


ST's players can be replaced although I agree Janis was a good ST's guy.
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: Gregg on March 31, 2018, 10:26:09 AM
Janis will be hard to replace for the simple reason that he was one of the best gunners in the NFC.

He had extraordinary speed and just about perfect size for that job.

Plus, he can return kicks also.

As per his WR possibilities, I don't think the Packers ever took the time to really work with him.  Coming from where he did, that is what he needed. In Cleveland I think they will.  He will be getting a fresh start.
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: Favre2Rodgers on March 31, 2018, 12:03:46 PM
The Browns have a history of developing WR's. This might be a great place for Janis.
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: ricky on March 31, 2018, 12:53:29 PM
Janis will be hard to replace for the simple reason that he was one of the best gunners in the NFC.

He had extraordinary speed and just about perfect size for that job.

Plus, he can return kicks also.

As per his WR possibilities, I don't think the Packers ever took the time to really work with him.  Coming from where he did, that is what he needed. In Cleveland I think they will.  He will be getting a fresh start.

Donald Driver was also a seventh round pick, and he became a terrific WR for the Packers. Janis was given the opportunity and coaching to be better. He either didn't have the physique to be able to be effective (The GM did an excellent job of diagnosing his problems). Or, he didn't have the mental acuity/commitment to learn that separates starters from bench warmers. Will it be different in Cleveland? We'll see. Though I get the feeling that if Janis does manage to have a good game, there will be a lot of "I told you so'ers" who will emerge. Similar to Peterson going to Arizona- he had a strong first game, and some on here, who had wanted the Packers to sign him, were in full throat. But when he washed out and was benched? Crickets. Expect the same thing with Janis. And for a different view of Janis, and in response to all the mourners, here:

 https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/jeff-janis-wasnt-set-up-to-fail-537
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: Twain on March 31, 2018, 03:29:11 PM
He had ample opportunities to be coached up by the Packers. 

It is more than route running with Janis- he is not a natural at catching with his hands so he ends up being a body catcher.  That gives him a tiny catch radius so he has to be wide open to get the ball, as well as sets him up for deflections that result in interceptions.

His speed is good, but without being able to set up the route and catch with the hands he will always be special teams.

Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: Gregg on March 31, 2018, 06:40:44 PM
A tiny catch radius?

Ask Patrick Peterson about that one.
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: Twain on April 01, 2018, 06:02:06 AM
A tiny catch radius?

Ask Patrick Peterson about that one.

You have to look at his entire body of work.  "Catch Radius" isn't about what you can get once in a while, it is about what you can reliably catch.  The hail mary was simply the exception that proves the rule.

He went up and got the ball on his hands, and then bobbled it to the ground.  Admittedly, Peterson got in there and was pulling on his arm and the ball, but not the solid hands that you look for in a WR.  Compare that catch with the one Richard Rodgers made in Detroit in much heavier traffic.

If you want to thrive as a wide receiver in the NFL, you have to catch with the hands, not the body, and that is not Janis.   When you catch with the body, The QB has to put it on the body, thus the reliable catch radius is tiny.

If he goes out with Cleveland and has a big season as a wide receiver, I will eat my words, but I don't see that happening.
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: phanatic1 on April 01, 2018, 06:49:51 AM
Not sure anyone in the Browns organization is expecting Janis to come in and even be a #3 guy.  But, if he is a reliable #4 and continues to be a core special teamer - then there should be questions asked of MM why he could not play in Green Bay. 

There hasn't been any details that I can find about his new contract, but I would have had no issue of keeping him as a #5 WR and the special teams leader.  I can't find it now, but the stats showed that he forced a large number of fair catches on punts and saved a lot of hidden yards.  While this might be easy to dismiss, his special teams play is going to be hard to replace.   
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: Twain on April 01, 2018, 07:40:49 AM
I don't know if this is accurate, but if it is, it would cast some light on this issue- it is snap counts for 2016-

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb/2016-snap-counts.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JaniJe00/fantasy/2016

Janis had the 5th highest snap counts of wide receivers, with Montgomery 4th but playing RB, so one could argue that Janis was the #4 that year-  with a 6 game run with a significant number of snaps,  and only produced 93 yds.  He fundamentally was replace by Allison later in the season due to production issues.

I just don't think we can say he didn't get chances.  He had his moments, but wasn't consistent producing when he got the chances.
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: RT on April 01, 2018, 08:38:11 AM
I might be wrong, but I think those busy debating Janis' merits as a WR are speeding 100 MPH down a deadend road.

Who/What is Jeff Janis? Janis is a one percentile athlete that excels at covering punts and kicks and moonlights at returning kickoffs. Also plays WR in emergency situations and is their best blocking WR when the offense is attempting to runout the clock.

Because of his measurables fans have put some unrealistic expectations on what they believed he was or should be. After the Arizona playoff game people let their minds run wild and when those expectations fell flat many fans seem to turn on him. Rather than appreciate the fact that he is an exceptional special teams player they choose to focus on what he is not.

Is there a place for such a player? Empty your minds for a minute of all the bias and misconceptions that are build up over the past couple of years about Janis. Steve Tasker spent 12 years in the NFL and caught a total of 51 passes, yet reached godlike statis with the Bills fans, while Janis does the same thing and Packers fans debate his catch radius. The Patriots just re-signed Matthew Slater to play special teams and no one in Boston is discussing his shortcoming with catching the ball even if he does have a WR next to his name. Each year the Packers keep 5 or 6 WR, is it so crazy that each year that 6th WR/STer spot go to a guy that is the major reason they had one of the best coverage units in the NFL last year? The Bills who played in 4 Super Bowls with Tasker and the current Patriots team are a few teams that seem to feel their is value in such a player.

A couple of things of interest on Janis, Andy Herman posted a 1 minute 51 second clip of Janis highlights on his twitter yesterday. One of the things that is striking in the clip is how many times he outruns NFL DB's who had an angle on him.

Also on twitter Zach Kruse wonders if the Arizona playoff Hail Mary TD catch isn't, " Maybe the two most incredible individual feats on a single play ever".
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: Twain on April 01, 2018, 09:18:53 AM
I might be wrong, but I think those busy debating Janis' merits as a WR are speeding 100 MPH down a deadend road.

Who/What is Jeff Janis? Janis is a one percentile athlete that excels at covering punts and kicks and moonlights at returning kickoffs. Also plays WR in emergency situations and is their best blocking WR when the offense is attempting to runout the clock.

Because of his measurables fans have put some unrealistic expectations on what they believed he was or should be. After the Arizona playoff game people let their minds run wild and when those expectations fell flat many fans seem to turn on him. Rather than appreciate the fact that he is an exceptional special teams player they choose to focus on what he is not.

Is there a place for such a player? Empty your minds for a minute of all the bias and misconceptions that are build up over the past couple of years about Janis. Steve Tasker spent 12 years in the NFL and caught a total of 51 passes, yet reached godlike statis with the Bills fans, while Janis does the same thing and Packers fans debate his catch radius. The Patriots just re-signed Matthew Slater to play special teams and no one in Boston is discussing his shortcoming with catching the ball even if he does have a WR next to his name. Each year the Packers keep 5 or 6 WR, is it so crazy that each year that 6th WR/STer spot go to a guy that is the major reason they had one of the best coverage units in the NFL last year? The Bills who played in 4 Super Bowls with Tasker and the current Patriots team are a few teams that seem to feel their is value in such a player.

A couple of things of interest on Janis, Andy Herman posted a 1 minute 51 second clip of Janis highlights on his twitter yesterday. One of the things that is striking in the clip is how many times he outruns NFL DB's who had an angle on him.

Also on twitter Zach Kruse wonders if the Arizona playoff Hail Mary TD catch isn't, " Maybe the two most incredible individual feats on a single play ever".

I agree with everything you say.

I think the problem with keeping Janis is that the team has done a poor job of maintaining reliable depth at WR.  Since Adams, they haven't really hit on a WR, so the bottom end of the position has not really developed well.   They need to bring in a bunch of guys to see if they can find one or two that can produce at the position.  If we had 4 or 5 solid players at WR, then Janis would stay for special teams.

I think WR is close to a crisis position as it was the year Nelson tore his ACL and Cobb, Adams and Montgomery got hurt.  They need as many swings at the WR ball as they can get this year.  Not signing Janis gives them an extra swing. 

As an aside, I always wondered why they didn't try to convert him to defense- size and speed for safety, shows as a gunner he can be physical.
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: heikks86 on April 01, 2018, 09:50:16 AM
I might be wrong, but I think those busy debating Janis' merits as a WR are speeding 100 MPH down a deadend road.

Who/What is Jeff Janis? Janis is a one percentile athlete that excels at covering punts and kicks and moonlights at returning kickoffs. Also plays WR in emergency situations and is their best blocking WR when the offense is attempting to runout the clock.

Because of his measurables fans have put some unrealistic expectations on what they believed he was or should be. After the Arizona playoff game people let their minds run wild and when those expectations fell flat many fans seem to turn on him. Rather than appreciate the fact that he is an exceptional special teams player they choose to focus on what he is not.

Is there a place for such a player? Empty your minds for a minute of all the bias and misconceptions that are build up over the past couple of years about Janis. Steve Tasker spent 12 years in the NFL and caught a total of 51 passes, yet reached godlike statis with the Bills fans, while Janis does the same thing and Packers fans debate his catch radius. The Patriots just re-signed Matthew Slater to play special teams and no one in Boston is discussing his shortcoming with catching the ball even if he does have a WR next to his name. Each year the Packers keep 5 or 6 WR, is it so crazy that each year that 6th WR/STer spot go to a guy that is the major reason they had one of the best coverage units in the NFL last year? The Bills who played in 4 Super Bowls with Tasker and the current Patriots team are a few teams that seem to feel their is value in such a player.

A couple of things of interest on Janis, Andy Herman posted a 1 minute 51 second clip of Janis highlights on his twitter yesterday. One of the things that is striking in the clip is how many times he outruns NFL DB's who had an angle on him.

Also on twitter Zach Kruse wonders if the Arizona playoff Hail Mary TD catch isn't, " Maybe the two most incredible individual feats on a single play ever".

I agree with everything you say.

I think the problem with keeping Janis is that the team has done a poor job of maintaining reliable depth at WR.  Since Adams, they haven't really hit on a WR, so the bottom end of the position has not really developed well.   They need to bring in a bunch of guys to see if they can find one or two that can produce at the position.  If we had 4 or 5 solid players at WR, then Janis would stay for special teams.

I think WR is close to a crisis position as it was the year Nelson tore his ACL and Cobb, Adams and Montgomery got hurt.  They need as many swings at the WR ball as they can get this year.  Not signing Janis gives them an extra swing. 

As an aside, I always wondered why they didn't try to convert him to defense- size and speed for safety, shows as a gunner he can be physical.

Since drafting Adams they haven’t taken a wr high in the draft, most wrs they took were 5-7th round picks, they had Nelson, Cobb and Adams so at the time they didn’t think they needed to find another wr
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: phanatic1 on April 01, 2018, 12:26:27 PM
I might be wrong, but I think those busy debating Janis' merits as a WR are speeding 100 MPH down a deadend road.

Who/What is Jeff Janis? Janis is a one percentile athlete that excels at covering punts and kicks and moonlights at returning kickoffs. Also plays WR in emergency situations and is their best blocking WR when the offense is attempting to runout the clock.

Because of his measurables fans have put some unrealistic expectations on what they believed he was or should be. After the Arizona playoff game people let their minds run wild and when those expectations fell flat many fans seem to turn on him. Rather than appreciate the fact that he is an exceptional special teams player they choose to focus on what he is not.

Is there a place for such a player? Empty your minds for a minute of all the bias and misconceptions that are build up over the past couple of years about Janis. Steve Tasker spent 12 years in the NFL and caught a total of 51 passes, yet reached godlike statis with the Bills fans, while Janis does the same thing and Packers fans debate his catch radius. The Patriots just re-signed Matthew Slater to play special teams and no one in Boston is discussing his shortcoming with catching the ball even if he does have a WR next to his name. Each year the Packers keep 5 or 6 WR, is it so crazy that each year that 6th WR/STer spot go to a guy that is the major reason they had one of the best coverage units in the NFL last year? The Bills who played in 4 Super Bowls with Tasker and the current Patriots team are a few teams that seem to feel their is value in such a player.

A couple of things of interest on Janis, Andy Herman posted a 1 minute 51 second clip of Janis highlights on his twitter yesterday. One of the things that is striking in the clip is how many times he outruns NFL DB's who had an angle on him.

Also on twitter Zach Kruse wonders if the Arizona playoff Hail Mary TD catch isn't, " Maybe the two most incredible individual feats on a single play ever".

RT I was thinking the same thing about Slater.  Forgot about Tasker - but he was a difference maker for a really good Bills team. 

In an interesting comparison, I was reading the Jason Kidd interview about how the expectations climbed quickly when the Bucks hit the .500 mark his first year and all of a sudden - anything less than a 50 win season his next was unacceptable.  For Janis - that Arizona game probably led to his downfall.  Everyone expected him to become the next great WR in Green Bay after the Cards game and it just didn't happen.  Why?  Not really sure, but a number of things probably occurred.

And honestly, I am kind of surprised how easy the Packers let him go.  With the history of the Packers cover teams, his departure  will hurt those units.  MM talks about his emphasis on special teams and he lets his best special teamer walk out the door. 
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: LMG on April 01, 2018, 07:29:20 PM
Remember Janis was a 'free agent' and could sign with the highest bidder.


I for one am not going to get all choked up about his departure from the Packers but will wish him well with his new team.
Title: Re: Janis to Cleveland
Post by: craig on April 02, 2018, 08:58:38 AM
...Who/What is Jeff Janis? Janis is a one percentile athlete that excels at covering punts and kicks and moonlights at returning kickoffs. Also plays WR in emergency situations and is their best blocking WR when the offense is attempting to runout the clock.

....Is there a place for such a player? .... Steve Tasker .... The Patriots just re-signed Matthew Slater.....  The Bills who played in 4 Super Bowls with Tasker and the current Patriots team are a few teams that seem to feel their is value in such a player....

The Packers decided that there was not a place for such a player.  Rightly or wrongly. Perhaps they were dumb as we seemingly judge all of their decisions to be.  But that was there decision. 

I think Twain's thoughts may capture their reasoning. 

Tangent: RT, you note that the WR beside JJ's name is misleading.  Janis should presumably just be listed as "gunner", but nobody lists guys as "gunner".  All rosters list only 3 ST-only "positions":  P, LS, and K.  (Might also be better if a pure gunner-only guy wasn't wasting WR snaps and coaching attention in camp and in practice.) 
 
I accept MM/Gute's logic, assuming Twain has captured their thinking.  Not only for the WR group, but likewise for CB, and safety, and OL, and TE.   

With the variably desperate vulnerability of those groups in terms of snaps players,  I agree with Twain they may want to try as many guys as possible who **might** have a shot to develop into actual snaps-WR, or snaps-CB, or snaps-Safety, or snaps-guard, or snaps-tackle, or snaps-center, or snaps-tight end. 

Every roster spot dedicated to a ST-only guy is a spot unavailable for a potential-snaps developmental player. 

Maybe that's not a thing, and long-shots like Yancey and Pipkens and Donatello will never contribute as much as an established and sure-to-be-good gunner.   But given the uncertainties of player development, and the physical talents they saw that attracted them to guys like Yancey and Pipkens in the first place, I can understand why they may prefer to keep as many of the younger developmental prospects as possible: in hopes that between good evaluation, good projection, good coaching, and good luck, they might hit on a few. 

Likewise they've got 12 draft picks, 6 of them after 5.30.  Probably few of those last 6 guys will contribute as much this year as a good gunner would.  So one might well reason that the last spot on the roster should go to the gunner over one of those last-six +D draft-pick prospects.  But there will presumably be qualities about each of those six guys that could enable them to become productive snaps players someday, *IF* the developmental process MM is so proud of can work.  So I can see the logic in just keeping the gunner, but I can also understand Gute's logic in perhaps preferring to keep the developmental guy whose long-term value might end up being more than a gunner.