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General Category => Green Bay Packers News Talk => Topic started by: marklawrence on January 10, 2019, 12:45:56 PM

Title: Complacency
Post by: marklawrence on January 10, 2019, 12:45:56 PM
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/01/10/packers-admit-complacency-had-infected-the-football-operation/amp/
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: Shinesman on January 10, 2019, 01:48:26 PM
And suddenly, after all the ridicule so many people had gotten for so long for pointing out this obvious fact, has been proven to be true. Let's hope they learned from this and stay energetic and competitive for the next several years.
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: ricky on January 10, 2019, 02:01:00 PM
And suddenly, after all the ridicule so many people had gotten for so long for pointing out this obvious fact, has been proven to be true. Let's hope they learned from this and stay energetic and competitive for the next several years.

With a new coach and a team that may well be reenergized, that means there should be fewer or no excuses if Rodgers continues to underperform (according to his lofty standards). Also, since this would be another year removed from his latest shoulder injury (not forgetting the knee problem), with yet another off-season for R&R and the best rehab money can buy, he should be ready to lead this team to new heights. Also, this will let us know whether the players truly want to be held accountable, or whether they like the idea, but resent the reality. Gutekunst showed he is not afraid to clear house of underperformers/problem players )Clinton-Dix, Randall). He also has shown he's not afraid of FA. So, for all those calling for a "house cleaning" and more FA's, get ready, because this could well be your year.
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: The GM on January 10, 2019, 02:06:04 PM
I couldn't agree more.  What others call complacency, I call the Country Club.   Players collecting paychecks by mailing "performances" in on Sunday.  Needed a new culture brought in and get established.   I don't know how good LaFleur is going to be but a change was needed.  If you aren't a starter you better be pushing a starter or hit the road.  I don't expect a guy like Kizer to start, but he needs to show some development, not like 4 years of Hundley when you wonder if he ever went to practice.  I hope this is a new chapter in the Packers approach.   Coaches, players, scouts if they aren't performing, get rid of them.   Guys like HHCD avoiding contact at all costs, Perry should just sleep in the trainers office,  and Kevin King cant eat without getting hurt.   There are cap complications with many of these guys but they aren't helping you on the field. That culture needs to change.  JMO     
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: marklawrence on January 10, 2019, 04:05:55 PM
"Il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres." -- Voltaire
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: dannobanano on January 10, 2019, 06:32:13 PM
I think ML coached Kizer his frosh year at ND. Maybe he can get something out of him
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: Fox_NFLs_GG on January 10, 2019, 07:39:16 PM
Long term winning teams do have coaching turnover due to other teams taking their coaches. It keeps things competitive amoungst coaches and they are forced to bring in new energetic coaches to replace them. Not too many teams have been too interested in the Packers coaches and the ones that did get head coaching gigs elsewhere failed big time. Green Bay has been the team that eventually had to replace their coaches because they were stale or just plane bad. Teams like New England had to replace coaches because they moved on to other teams and promoted a highly competitive environment that pushed coaches and players to be better.
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: ricky on January 10, 2019, 08:21:09 PM
Long term winning teams do have coaching turnover due to other teams taking their coaches. It keeps things competitive amoungst coaches and they are forced to bring in new energetic coaches to replace them. Not too many teams have been too interested in the Packers coaches and the ones that did get head coaching gigs elsewhere failed big time. Green Bay has been the team that eventually had to replace their coaches because they were stale or just plane bad. Teams like New England had to replace coaches because they moved on to other teams and promoted a highly competitive environment that pushed coaches and players to be better.

The coaches from NE who became HC's elsewhere have failed. Meanwhile, Andy Reid and Doug Peterson are doing fine. Also, with the apparent exception of Garoppolo, NE QB's have bombed elsewhere. As have esteemed GB backup QB's when given the chance to start. With the exception of AR. So, what have we learned? Transplanting success is unlikely.
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: Shinesman on January 10, 2019, 09:15:21 PM
Long term winning teams do have coaching turnover due to other teams taking their coaches. It keeps things competitive amoungst coaches and they are forced to bring in new energetic coaches to replace them. Not too many teams have been too interested in the Packers coaches and the ones that did get head coaching gigs elsewhere failed big time. Green Bay has been the team that eventually had to replace their coaches because they were stale or just plane bad. Teams like New England had to replace coaches because they moved on to other teams and promoted a highly competitive environment that pushed coaches and players to be better.

The coaches from NE who became HC's elsewhere have failed. Meanwhile, Andy Reid and Doug Peterson are doing fine. Also, with the apparent exception of Garoppolo, NE QB's have bombed elsewhere. As have esteemed GB backup QB's when given the chance to start. With the exception of AR. So, what have we learned? Transplanting success is unlikely.

I believe he is referring to the MM coaching tree of MacAdoo and Philbin. Not the Holmgren tree of Reid, Pederson, Gruden, etc. Two very different eras in Green Bay as far as coaching goes.
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: ricky on January 11, 2019, 06:49:50 AM
This is going to be an albatross around MM's neck when he interviews elsewhere. Why did he allow the offense to grow predictable and stale? Was it stubborness or lack of creativity? And why did the team become complacent? Excessive loyalty and Aaron Rodgers. The former meant he'd   keep low performing assistants and players around because of familiarity, and not play guys who were good because he didn't like them (Aaron Jones, apparently). As far as AR goes, why worry when you knew he'd pull a miracle play out when needed to win the game? Has the game "passed him by"? Because it seems the NFL is going for the younger, "next Sean McVey" rather than retreads. Kliff Kingsbury? Seriously?
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: craig on January 11, 2019, 08:15:01 AM
....I believe he is referring to the MM coaching tree of MacAdoo and Philbin. Not the Holmgren tree of Reid, Pederson, Gruden, etc. Two very different eras in Green Bay as far as coaching goes.

Yes.  What happened with Holmgren in the 90's isn't that relevant to what's happened during MM's 13 years. 

Not all that many MM guys have seemed to be heavily pursued or to move up the coaching ladder.  There was a time when Moss got some interviews.  Perhaps the biggest "successes" would be McAdoo, who moved up to OC and then to coach.  And Philbin? 

But it's not like anybody who got a crack at MM's offensive coaching staff was on a direct ladder to get OC offers quickly.  Or that getting hired onto Caper's staff put you on a direct path to get DC offers. 
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: Fox_NFLs_GG on January 11, 2019, 09:13:02 AM
Long term winning teams do have coaching turnover due to other teams taking their coaches. It keeps things competitive amoungst coaches and they are forced to bring in new energetic coaches to replace them. Not too many teams have been too interested in the Packers coaches and the ones that did get head coaching gigs elsewhere failed big time. Green Bay has been the team that eventually had to replace their coaches because they were stale or just plane bad. Teams like New England had to replace coaches because they moved on to other teams and promoted a highly competitive environment that pushed coaches and players to be better.

The coaches from NE who became HC's elsewhere have failed. Meanwhile, Andy Reid and Doug Peterson are doing fine. Also, with the apparent exception of Garoppolo, NE QB's have bombed elsewhere. As have esteemed GB backup QB's when given the chance to start. With the exception of AR. So, what have we learned? Transplanting success is unlikely.

Yes they have failed, but NE has a staff change that is somewhat consistent and no one gets complacent. They strive to be better. 
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: The GM on January 11, 2019, 10:04:06 AM
Belichick's coaching skills dont transfer.  You gotta have him in the mix.  McVay's may not either.  He's pretty bright, and we'll see how his understudies do with other teams.     
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: dannobanano on January 11, 2019, 01:39:40 PM
This is going to be an albatross around MM's neck when he interviews elsewhere. Why did he allow the offense to grow predictable and stale? Was it stubborness or lack of creativity? And why did the team become complacent? Excessive loyalty and Aaron Rodgers. The former meant he'd   keep low performing assistants and players around because of familiarity, and not play guys who were good because he didn't like them (Aaron Jones, apparently). As far as AR goes, why worry when you knew he'd pull a miracle play out when needed to win the game? Has the game "passed him by"? Because it seems the NFL is going for the younger, "next Sean McVey" rather than retreads. Kliff Kingsbury? Seriously?

I really could care less about MM's future and how his past may affect it.

He's a big boy, let him deal with "whatever".
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: ricky on January 29, 2019, 01:16:26 PM
Well, this is certainly interesting. Graham being brought back for a second year? So, is the team blaming MM for not using JG correctly? Will he be lined up somewhere further off the line, where he can be utilized as a receiver rather than a traditional TE? Is he capable of being a red zone threat? Can he be an effective "chain mover/outlet receiver"? In short, can MCL better utilize his limited talents than MM could? Apparently, the Packers are willing to give it a try. Or is this an example of continued complacency?

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/01/29/report-packers-expected-to-pay-jimmy-grahams-roster-bonus/
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: The GM on January 29, 2019, 03:08:27 PM
Well, this is certainly interesting. Graham being brought back for a second year? So, is the team blaming MM for not using JG correctly? Will he be lined up somewhere further off the line, where he can be utilized as a receiver rather than a traditional TE? Is he capable of being a red zone threat? Can he be an effective "chain mover/outlet receiver"? In short, can MCL better utilize his limited talents than MM could? Apparently, the Packers are willing to give it a try. Or is this an example of continued complacency?

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/01/29/report-packers-expected-to-pay-jimmy-grahams-roster-bonus/

As I mentioned in another thread.  Guys who didnt do well under MM might flourish under Lafleurs system. I think Graham is just about done, he was a disappointment in Seattle but maybe they see something in him for this system?  This likely rules out a FA Jared Cook return.
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: ricky on January 29, 2019, 09:10:23 PM
As I mentioned in another thread.  Guys who didnt do well under MM might flourish under Lafleurs system. I think Graham is just about done, he was a disappointment in Seattle but maybe they see something in him for this system?  This likely rules out a FA Jared Cook return.

It could also be a bridge to a rookie TE, someone who could be mentored and learn behind a very good TE in his prime. Because it seems likely the Packers are going to draft a TE, and why not have a vet to help teach him what it takes to make it in the NFL, on and off the field?
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: phanatic1 on January 30, 2019, 11:59:17 AM
We need to keep in mind that this will be an entirely new offense.  If MM had stayed around, then it would have really made no sense to keep Graham around for what he was being asked to do.  LaFleur however will use him differently and if watching the Rams use of their TE's is an indication, Graham could see a tick up in his use and the routes he will be running.  I still think they draft a TE early on, but maybe just not at the end of round 1 like many are predicting. 
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: dannobanano on January 30, 2019, 01:44:58 PM
Bakhtiari talked had an interesting talk on @WildeAndTausch. Said it was more about accountability.

https://twitter.com/zachkruse2/status/1090655280856223745 (https://twitter.com/zachkruse2/status/1090655280856223745)

Honestly, the whole show started to unravel after the NFCC loss to SEA and MM's brother dying.

He just didn't seem to give a rip anymore.

Janis had some pretty strong words about it in an interview this week as well.
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: ricky on January 30, 2019, 03:38:38 PM
So, where does the buck stop? With the players? Because they are professionals, and should be acting in a manner consistent with their status. The coaches, for not enforcing discipline in guys who have had special treatment since at least high school? With TT, or not seeing the team getting slack, and calling the coaches to account, and demanding changes? What about Murphy, who oversees everyone, but did nothing? The team has now cleaned house, with some players being sent away; the coaches have been purged; TT is gone. But Murphy remains. Apparently he had no responsibility in any of this, and therefore no consequences for his inactions.

Just read this at CheeseheadTV, and think it pretty much nails the dangers inherent in "staying the course". What I disagree with is when the writer says that cutting older, expensive underperforming players (Cobb and CMIII) would somehow be unpopular with fans. Yet when reading PC and other fan sites, it seems the fans are more than willing to move on. Let Matthews go unless he takes a huge pay cut and moves to ILB is the usual solution. Cobb? Too injury prone. This could be the nightmare scenario: a new HC who will simply "go with the flow" and try to maintain the status quo because he is bowing to pressure from Gutekunst and Murphy. Or maybe its just Murphy.

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/does-keeping-jimmy-graham-signal-that-the-packers-will-be-players-in-free-agency-335
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: The GM on January 31, 2019, 07:30:20 AM
They need to change the culture and I think they are doing that.  The coaches are gone who allowed mediocrity to creep in to the organization.  When a guy like Fackrell comes in and outperforms Matthews and Perry, its telling.  The packers did the right thing in getting rid of most of these coaches.   Now Gute needs to bring in hungry talent.    I mentioned before this was a country club with guys mailing in performances on Sunday.   That 31-0 vs Detroit the last week was all you needed to see.    Its time to keep a small nucleus, get rid of the slackers, and retool this team.  If the backups aren't pushing the starters, they need to go.  You cant have guys like Brett Hundley here for years, looking like he just came in off a turnip truck.  Thats coaching and accountability.   This next roster building needs to be all about production.   Based on performance, a guy like Belichick would be ripping this roster apart, and getting rid of the hanger ons, guys who aren't prepared to play.   Those guys are poison to a retooling organization, and they need to sort out who can play in the new system and get rid of those who cant or wont.   JMO
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: RT on January 31, 2019, 02:14:20 PM
They need to change the culture and I think they are doing that.  The coaches are gone who allowed mediocrity to creep in to the organization.  When a guy like Fackrell comes in and outperforms Matthews and Perry, its telling.  The packers did the right thing in getting rid of most of these coaches.   Now Gute needs to bring in hungry talent.    I mentioned before this was a country club with guys mailing in performances on Sunday.   That 31-0 vs Detroit the last week was all you needed to see.    Its time to keep a small nucleus, get rid of the slackers, and retool this team.  If the backups aren't pushing the starters, they need to go.  You cant have guys like Brett Hundley here for years, looking like he just came in off a turnip truck.  Thats coaching and accountability.   This next roster building needs to be all about production.   Based on performance, a guy like Belichick would be ripping this roster apart, and getting rid of the hanger ons, guys who aren't prepared to play.   Those guys are poison to a retooling organization, and they need to sort out who can play in the new system and get rid of those who cant or wont.   JMO


It is fine to play hardball as long as you as leadership holds everyone equally accountable. The first problem in the current Packers locker room is that AR is at the top of the list and no one is getting rid of him.

The biggest issue is that it starts at the top with Murphy and his change in management structure to gain himself more power. He really needs to go back to letting the GM run the football side and he can go back to riding innertubes and drinking hot chocolate and continue to build his Wally World. Hopefully they can avoid signing an over priced FA just for the sake of a PR move like the Graham signing last year. 
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: dannobanano on January 31, 2019, 02:27:11 PM
They need to change the culture and I think they are doing that.  The coaches are gone who allowed mediocrity to creep in to the organization.  When a guy like Fackrell comes in and outperforms Matthews and Perry, its telling.  The packers did the right thing in getting rid of most of these coaches.   Now Gute needs to bring in hungry talent.    I mentioned before this was a country club with guys mailing in performances on Sunday.   That 31-0 vs Detroit the last week was all you needed to see.    Its time to keep a small nucleus, get rid of the slackers, and retool this team.  If the backups aren't pushing the starters, they need to go.  You cant have guys like Brett Hundley here for years, looking like he just came in off a turnip truck.  Thats coaching and accountability.   This next roster building needs to be all about production.   Based on performance, a guy like Belichick would be ripping this roster apart, and getting rid of the hanger ons, guys who aren't prepared to play.   Those guys are poison to a retooling organization, and they need to sort out who can play in the new system and get rid of those who cant or wont.   JMO


It is fine to play hardball as long as you as leadership holds everyone equally accountable. The first problem in the current Packers locker room is that AR is at the top of the list and no one is getting rid of him.

The biggest issue is that it starts at the top with Murphy and his change in management structure to gain himself more power. He really needs to go back to letting the GM run the football side and he can go back to riding innertubes and drinking hot chocolate and continue to build his Wally World. Hopefully they can avoid signing an over priced FA just for the sake of a PR move like the Graham signing last year.

 ;D

Is there somewhere I can apply for that kind of job?
Title: Re: Complacency
Post by: #66 on January 31, 2019, 05:10:52 PM
They need to change the culture and I think they are doing that.  The coaches are gone who allowed mediocrity to creep in to the organization.  When a guy like Fackrell comes in and outperforms Matthews and Perry, its telling.  The packers did the right thing in getting rid of most of these coaches.   Now Gute needs to bring in hungry talent.    I mentioned before this was a country club with guys mailing in performances on Sunday.   That 31-0 vs Detroit the last week was all you needed to see.    Its time to keep a small nucleus, get rid of the slackers, and retool this team.  If the backups aren't pushing the starters, they need to go.  You cant have guys like Brett Hundley here for years, looking like he just came in off a turnip truck.  Thats coaching and accountability.   This next roster building needs to be all about production.   Based on performance, a guy like Belichick would be ripping this roster apart, and getting rid of the hanger ons, guys who aren't prepared to play.   Those guys are poison to a retooling organization, and they need to sort out who can play in the new system and get rid of those who cant or wont.   JMO


It is fine to play hardball as long as you as leadership holds everyone equally accountable. The first problem in the current Packers locker room is that AR is at the top of the list and no one is getting rid of him.

The biggest issue is that it starts at the top with Murphy and his change in management structure to gain himself more power. He really needs to go back to letting the GM run the football side and he can go back to riding innertubes and drinking hot chocolate and continue to build his Wally World. Hopefully they can avoid signing an over priced FA just for the sake of a PR move like the Graham signing last year.
The way that I see it is that Murphy has asserted himself in order to help rid the organization of complacency.  I do not see him influencing things like draft picks - I believe that he will leave that to Gute.  However, as far as a coach, he wanted to make sure that there was a sense of urgency with the man and he found that in MLF.