September 18, 2019, 05:03:03 PM

Author Topic: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned  (Read 2615 times)

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Offline RT

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2019, 10:49:54 AM »
As OneTwoSixFive mentioned bellow we have three young WRs drafted last year that need to be given a another year to see if they show  better production. We also have a new TE that should be able to make some contribution this year. Sternberger supposedly is a smooth accurate route runner, we know Rodgers places a great amount of stock in his receivers running precise routes.

If they need better production from the receiving corps going into next year, look for them to draft a higher round WR next year.

The Packer have some young talent at WR but lack PREMIUM TALENT there. They once again completely overlooked the position in this off season thus far.  Barring some trade we have what we have.  They have gotten away from drafting receivers in the second round and have used day 3 to stock the shelves which has caused an overall regression at the position.  This offense IMO is not set up for a 16 game season to be successful and last year flashed that.  La'Fleur could help with his simpler schemes but at least one of the younger guys is going to have a huge leap and surprise us for success.

There were guys there for the picking in round 2 and the Packers could not capitalize and maneuver up because of the trade for Savage. Overall not upgrading us at this position and giving Rodgers the talent he deserves around him could lead to a rough 2019 is my opinon.

You seem to be obsessing about draft status HERE, if MVS and ESB were drafted in the second round would they now be PREMIUM TALENT? Because Antonio Brown, Julian Edelman, Pierre Garcon, Kenny Stills, Stefon Diggs, Tyreek Hill were all drafted in the 5th, 6th or 7th rounds, does that mean they are not PREMIUM TALENT?

The Packers seem to think that they are fine at WR. I am not attempting to be rude here, but maybe you should ask yourself the question of why are the Packers comfortable with their WR position and seek your answers there. Rather than assuming that you are wiser than the decision making people for the Packers that have all the information.

As I stated before, the trade for Savage did not stop the Packers from drafting a WR if that was what they had wanted to do. 

Online craig

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2019, 11:29:59 AM »
RT, you may be correct that "the Packers seem to think that they are fine at WR."  (And if you have inside contacts telling you exactly that, and were at liberty to share, that would be really interesting for us to hear!) 

But I don't think your logic necessitates that conclusion? 

A team may have perhaps more than four position groups that are variably needful and "less than fine".  But they had a finite four high draft choices.  That they spent those on four spots that were desperately needful, and didn't have any left to spend, doesn't prove that WR is necessarily "fine".  It may be "less than fine", but they just didn't have any bullets let. 

Hopefully it will play out to be "fine" indeed, and ESB and MVS will emerge as premium players.  But the application of limited resources elsewhere doesn't ensure that. 

Online craig

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2019, 11:58:39 AM »
...Their should be a bit of caution here. The Packers are putting a ton of resources into getting 'Pettine type guys' ....

Yes, I have heard all the lip service about how he is happy being a DC ...., but their is not a single high end competitor on the planet that failed at something and is just fine with it. The failing as a HC is eating at his soul .....

Their is a reason a GM should be drafting the BPA and not just catering to a coach. A year from now he may well wish he had.

Strong points, RT, thanks.  Yeah, it's partly why I've been so surprised at how much they've commented on "Pettine-type guys", and what Pettine wants to do, and how much they've talked about getting guys that suit his system.  I agree with you, there are coaches who really value fast OLB speed around the edge, rather than the collection of d-linemen none of whom are sack-master edge rushers, or superlative arc-rushing threats. 

Gute may be an idiot, and may come to regret what he's done.  But I'd like to hope he's **not** super dumb?  So what if he's hypothetically not dumb, yet he still talks as if Pettine's system is going to last? 

*He may argue that his acquisitions are useful in *any* system? 
*He'd argue that he **has** been drafting BPA, and not just "catering to coach"? 
*They may be committed to Pettine's views regardless of whether Pettine remains as the commanding general; maybe even if he left, they'll just hire another guy with equivalent schemes and philosophy?

Whatever, it just struck me how the talk suggests they anticipate Pettine-perspective is likely to persevere beyond this season.   

Online ricky

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2019, 12:16:03 PM »
Whatever, it just struck me how the talk suggests they anticipate Pettine-perspective is likely to persevere beyond this season.

Very probably true. The Packers tend to keep coaches around for quite some time. And that the new HC was given his DC, rather than let him bring in someone else, spoke volumes. Sure, MLF was almost assuredly aware that Pettine was going to stay, but was he also aware that the first two picks would be for defense? Who was more important in the decision making process? Seems like PEttine rather than MLF. So, if Capers could last nine years, with a gradually disintegrating defense (not all his fault, because some of those draft picks were just not good), it seems that Pettine will get a chance to lead the defense for a while.

As far as WR, it seems the Packers are at minimum OK. The two rookies from last year who got some play time (except for Moore, who has reportedly been working his butt off this off season to improve) will have a year of experience under their belt. They'll be learning new things, sure, but so will the rest of the team. And Rodgers has had a year to get used to those guys. Add in that Allison, who seemed to be developing a strong rapport with AR will be back, and the team should be fine. But then again, this is the season of optimism. Even Browns fans are talking playoffs (at a minimum). Besides, all we can do is trust the people in charge know what they're doing, though I'm sure they really appreciate all the suggestions from this and other Packers fan sites.
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Offline Donzo

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2019, 01:52:49 PM »
Odell Beckham Jr's 4.43 was the 7th fastest at the combine
DeAndre Hopkins 4.57
Michael Thomas 4.57
Keenan Allen 4.71
Davante  Adams 4.57
A.J. Green, Bengals 4.5

Once again, at 6'5" Equanimeous St. Brown's 4.48 stacks up quite well


Excellent post... ESB is definitely better than an average athlete as a NFL WR.

Besides his 4.48 40 time, he's a very loose athlete with excellent body control. He's also faster than his 40 time. He was 100 meter guy in HS before he concentrated on football. Which means his long speed is very good... The opposite of that was Cobb. At one time he was pretty fast in a short spurt, but slowed down pretty quick. Overall, he was slower than his 40 time.

Offline Donzo

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2019, 02:02:46 PM »
The draft and free agency is over and what can we surmise.


Even though some fans have concerns about the WR's, a lot of good discussion in this thread about that concern, I don't believe the Packers are concerned.

As I just posted in the draft forum, the Packers complete inaction in acquiring new talent at WR speaks volumes to me... Not a single new addition via free agency or the draft. IF Gute or MLF are concerned, they ignoring it; which, I don't think they do if concerned.


Offline dannobanano

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2019, 02:07:25 PM »
MLF wasn't forced to keep Pettine.

They kept Pettine on staff to give MLF the option to keep or move on from Pettine. So MP's staying was MLF's decision and was not forced on him by top brass.

I know there is skepticism regarding Pettine staying long, especially if his defense should perform top notch, but I could easily see him sticking around for at least a few years.

I believe he wants a SB ring on his finger before he would entertain thoughts of taking on a HC job again. You know...............pad the resume' a little bit.


https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2019/01/11/matt-lafleur-confirms-packers-will-keep-mike-pettine-as-defensive-coordinator/

Offline B

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2019, 02:31:15 PM »
Ranking receivers in their rookie seasons with Aaron Rodgers

1. Davante Adams, 2014 second-round put up 38 receptions for 446 yards and three touchdowns was the best season a rookie receiver had with Rodgers before MVS.

2. Randall Cobb, 2011 second-round managed 25 receptions for 375 yards 1 Touchdown as a rookie

3. Jordy Nelson, 2008 the fifth pick of the second round, contributed 33 receptions for 366 yds & 2 Tds

4. Geronimo Allison, 2016 (Undrafted) Didn't play until Week 8, Allison had 12 receptions for 202 yards and 2 tds as a rookie.


NEW #1 5th-round Marquez Valdes-Scantling  38 receptions for 581 and 2 touchdowns

6th-round Equanimeous St. Brown 21 for 328 just behind Jordy Nelson








« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 02:45:56 PM by B »
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Online ricky

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2019, 02:46:33 PM »
MLF wasn't forced to keep Pettine.

They kept Pettine on staff to give MLF the option to keep or move on from Pettine. So MP's staying was MLF's decision and was not forced on him by top brass.

I know there is skepticism regarding Pettine staying long, especially if his defense should perform top notch, but I could easily see him sticking around for at least a few years.

I believe he wants a SB ring on his finger before he would entertain thoughts of taking on a HC job again. You know...............pad the resume' a little bit.


https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2019/01/11/matt-lafleur-confirms-packers-will-keep-mike-pettine-as-defensive-coordinator/

More than fair. MLF says he wanted to keep Pettine. But Pettine was well liked by players, other coaches and the execs that run the team. So, was MLF "forced" to keep Pettine? No. Just like no guy has ever been "forced" to see a chick flick because their significant other wanted to see it. It was a good move, whatever the process. It creates some continuity, and gives MLF a guy with HC experience on staff, but not a guy who is actively looking to become a HC right now.
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Offline B

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2019, 03:00:11 PM »
Ranking receivers in their rookie seasons with Aaron Rodgers

1. Davante Adams, 2014 second-round put up 38 receptions for 446 yards and three touchdowns was the best season a rookie receiver had with Rodgers before MVS.

2. Randall Cobb, 2011 second-round managed 25 receptions for 375 yards 1 Touchdown as a rookie

3. Jordy Nelson, 2008 the fifth pick of the second round, contributed 33 receptions for 366 yds & 2 Tds

4. Geronimo Allison, 2016 (Undrafted) Didn't play until Week 8, Allison had 12 receptions for 202 yards and 2 tds as a rookie.


NEW #1 5th-round Marquez Valdes-Scantling  38 receptions for 581 and 2 touchdowns

6th-round Equanimeous St. Brown 21 for 328 just behind Jordy Nelson

So with last season's rookies added:

1.  Marquez Valdes-Scantling 38-581-2
2. Davante Adams 38-446-3
3. Randall Cobb 25-375-1
4. Jordy Nelson 33-366-2
5. Equanimeous St. Brown  21-328-0
6. GERONIMO Allison 12-202-2
The Green Bay Packers never lost a football game.
They just ran out of time.
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Online craig

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2019, 03:33:19 PM »
Bruce, I love that context, and I love the implication that MVS and ESB may end up having comparably great careers to Adams and Jordy, and Cobb.  Jennings had 632 yards, barely 50 more than MVS.  It would be so great for the two young men, and for Packer history, if MVS and ESB end up among the great receivers of Packers lore, comparable to those other guys on your list and to Jennings to.  Who knows the future?  It's possible. 

I do think the numbers may mislead a bit, if they suggest that expectation?  Because those are volume stats, not rate stats?  I'd be curious to see how their numbers would compare on a per-snap rate basis? 

Put differently, I'm not sure the competition for snaps was quite as challenging last year, particularly once Cobb was hurt and Allison was injured.  I don't think it was quite as competitive as when Cobb was coming in behind Jennings, Jordy, Driver, and James Jones.  AS good and exciting as he looked when he did get some action, the group was just so good and deep that there was little opportunity for him.  It was likewise a deep room for Jordy; I thought he looked really promising and interesting when he did play, as a rookie, but they had other very good players for the coaches to use. 

HOpefully those competitive rookie numbers are a precursor to great careers. 

Richard Rodgers and Andrew Quarless both were over 200 yards as rookies, unusually good for rookie TE's.  Opportunity-based volume numbers in their cases. 

Offline Brandon2348

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2019, 04:11:21 PM »
1265, one of your points is to let the season play out, and figure out whether the sophomores can really do it.  Find out how good they can be. 

The risk there is that you don't really know based on year one; because often receivers aren't great as rookies, and take some time.  The risk there is that *IF* we find that they really aren't more than 3/4/5 type receivers, then we're starting from scratch next year, and starting a new it-takes-a-couple-of-years? process with new draftees. 

It may be that ESB just isn't really that quick or elusive, and has a somewhat inconsistent motor.  That MVS is fast, but just isn't very shifty or elusive, isn't really coordinated, and doesn't have very good hands.  That Moore just doesn't have playable NFL hands.  And that Rodgers just never clicks with or trusts any of them. 

Really, really desirable that they click and emerge; but the offense is pretty much in the hurt bag if they don't, probably for not just one but at least two years more if so. 

HOpes high.  Confidence less high!

Thank You and yes I agree it to be a huge gamble we did not need to take. We have Aaron Freakin Rodgers and here we are surrounding him with mostly day 3 weapons. I’m just getting worn on the whole thing and while I like our young receivers they statistically have a less of a chance of evolving. Not to say they cannot but i’m not holding my breath

https://www.colts.com/news/addition-of-parris-campbell-to-colts-offense-isn-t-fair

We should be talking about that above right now with Aaron Rodgers turning 35 soon and ditch this 10 YEAR PLAN we have been on rebuilding this defense. If this defense isn’t elite with all the capital spent on it i’m gonna be very disappointed. I have a feeling we will be kicking ourselves for years for not taking P. Campbell.

Online The GM

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2019, 04:18:36 PM »
A couple things need to happen for this group to become successful.

1.  You have recognize that these 3 were rookies last year.  They should be better just from experience, I'm confident you'll see a jump from them in year 2, and maybe a huge jump in them.

2.  Rodgers needs to scan the field for the open guy regardless of who it is, and LeFleur needs to hold him accountable to hit the open guy. 

Way too many throw-aways last year and that needs to be fixed by LeFleur, Rodgers and the WRs.  JMO

Offline B

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2019, 08:17:34 PM »
craig, yes it would be great if these young receivers have great careers. And yes, every year is played in a different context - including these physically talented young men played with a hobbled Aaron Rodgers. All of that is part of the context of these young players rookie seasons as well..

Perhaps LeFleur and Gute are idiots who have no idea how to assess talent - since both declared that they were excited by the young talent they had at WR well before the draft, and followed that up by their actual draft priorities. If so the Packers are likely screwed, blues and tattooed regardless of MVS and ESB prospects and future performances.

Then again, perhaps Gute and LeFleur didn't just wake up one morning and find themselves GM and HC of the storied Green Bay Packers. Perhaps they know what they're doing and earned their prestigious jobs. Maybe RT is correct when he wrote:
Quote
... seem to be obsessing about draft status HERE, if MVS and ESB were drafted in the second round would they now be PREMIUM TALENT? Because Antonio Brown, Julian Edelman, Pierre Garcon, Kenny Stills, Stefon Diggs, Tyreek Hill were all drafted in the 5th, 6th or 7th rounds, does that mean they are not PREMIUM TALENT?


Avoiding overkill he didn't bother adding that Donald Driver was a supplemental 7th round pick or go into the number of high round Wr draft picks in the NFL that never pan out...

Obviously there are differences in assessment of the Packers WR talent here and elsewhere. I guess we will have to wait and see, in the meantime, I appreciate the discussion. 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 08:39:11 PM by B »
The Green Bay Packers never lost a football game.
They just ran out of time.
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