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Author Topic: Ted Thompson - Judge for Yourself (long)  (Read 16877 times)

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Offline VoiceofReason

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Re: Ted Thompson - Judge for Yourself (long)
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2014, 06:40:18 AM »
We can debate individual draft picks all day long.  Both Wolf and TT don't have the best track record in the 1st round.  Both have found gems in rounds 2-7, and UFA.

The difference is Wolf made bold moves that usually paid off.  Trade for Favre, Ahman Green.  FA signings like White, Dodson, Robinson, Howard.  True difference makers that took the team from horrible to the SB. 

TT has had opportunities to make moves like that.  Lynch is one example.  Hester is another.  What has really cost TT is signing guys like Brad Jones, Hawk, Neal, Burnett.  The cap space invested in those guys is way more than the performance they're getting.  Now, we can debate each one because some more than others seemed to make sense at the time.  Bottom line though, that's a ton of cap space they could have used to sign 1 or 2 true difference makers.  And that's what this team is lacking- especially on defense obviously. 

Offline Heatseeker

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Re: Ted Thompson - Judge for Yourself (long)
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2014, 07:15:14 AM »
No one bats 1.000.

I know we'd all love for Thompson to do better (especially at defensive tackle) but his first round picks have rendered him a Hall of Fame QB, an above average NT, an all-world OLB and one of the better RT's in the game. ANY GM would trade a few duds (Harrell, etc.) for players at those positions.

And while I'd also like to see him utilize free agency more, I was reminded last night seeing the off-season's big signing (Byrd) get torched by the Cowboys just how risky a proposition that is. Bottom line is, Thompson has put the Packers in a position to be competitive and that's all you can realistically ask. Injuries happen, weird plays happen, refs happen and sometimes, even awful coaching happens. These are universal truths that affect every team, every year. And yet, the Packers are consistently in the playoffs. That has a lot to do with what Thompson has accomplished.

Offline claymaker

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Re: Ted Thompson - Judge for Yourself (long)
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2014, 09:28:14 AM »
Not blaming TT for taking Hawk, but TE was a position of need and VD was a freak athlete that doesn't come along very often. We had Bubba, but he was like watching a guy run with a piano on his back and near the end of the line.
Yea, I remember myself hoping for Vernon Davis. Wasn't there some sort of concern about behavior or off field stuff leading to the draft? Maybe I'm remembering wrong.

There were humongous concerns about his character coming out of college. He was a problem for SF up until Singletary's last year with the team. He's still had his moments throughout the years. The Packers have no tolerance for players who put themselves ahead of the team.

Some people might disagree with the Packers and their standards of drafting good character guys. Right now I'm sure we're all glad they don't have a Ray Rice scandal going on, and never will because of the standards they set and environment they provide.

Offline OneTwoSixFive

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Re: Ted Thompson - Judge for Yourself (long)
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2014, 09:57:24 AM »
Some people might disagree with the Packers and their standards of drafting good character guys. Right now I'm sure we're all glad they don't have a Ray Rice scandal going on, and never will because of the standards they set and environment they provide

A dangerous statement with Jolly recently welcomed back, and Pennel and Lyerla taken on despite their issues. I think the Packers locker room is good, but never say "never will", because it might.
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Offline get louder at lambeau

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Re: Ted Thompson - Judge for Yourself (long)
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2014, 10:21:45 AM »
I'm sure TT, like every successful manager, subscribes to some sort of self audit (for him and his team of assistants/scouts) to find out what they could do to improve on past performance and/or what mistakes they've made along with what to do to improve upon said mistakes. If that process is done and used for improvement then we should have a better TT each year. If TT is "draft and develop" almost to a fault, then we won't. In either event, we will have no idea about what goes on in the head of TT, so its just speculation. There are a lot of things to like about TT and there are a lot of things to dislike about TT. We got what we've got.

Ironicly its a lot like Favre.
Why can't Ted Thompson be the MVP of the NFL?

Offline cpk1994

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Re: Ted Thompson - Judge for Yourself (long)
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2014, 10:49:02 AM »
Perhaps the best time to take a look at him and his record is after a win over the Bears (Thank God for Jay Cutler).

What is it about playing the Bears that makes this the best time to evaulate TT? 

I would think late in the season or offseason a better time to evaluate.

It's not the bears, it's after a win so everyone is screaming for TT, MM and other coaches' scalps.
For those that continue to say they should have gotten Sean Payton, his team is a complete disaster right now.  I guess by the logic here, Payton should be fired as well.
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Offline Yuletide

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Re: Ted Thompson - Judge for Yourself (long)
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2014, 12:49:59 PM »
Not blaming TT for taking Hawk, but TE was a position of need and VD was a freak athlete that doesn't come along very often. We had Bubba, but he was like watching a guy run with a piano on his back and near the end of the line.
Yea, I remember myself hoping for Vernon Davis. Wasn't there some sort of concern about behavior or off field stuff leading to the draft? Maybe I'm remembering wrong.
I believe he asked Green Bay not to draft him and made disparaging comments about the city. Also, don't forget that Singletary almost (or did, I don't remember) ask him to leave the team. he was very imature coming out of college.

History proved Singletary to be as much of a nutcase as any of his players.
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Offline dannobanano

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Re: Ted Thompson - Judge for Yourself (long)
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2014, 04:17:34 PM »
We can debate individual draft picks all day long.  Both Wolf and TT don't have the best track record in the 1st round.  Both have found gems in rounds 2-7, and UFA.

The difference is Wolf made bold moves that usually paid off.  Trade for Favre, Ahman Green.  FA signings like White, Dodson, Robinson, Howard.  True difference makers that took the team from horrible to the SB.

TT has had opportunities to make moves like that.  Lynch is one example.  Hester is another.  What has really cost TT is signing guys like Brad Jones, Hawk, Neal, Burnett.  The cap space invested in those guys is way more than the performance they're getting.  Now, we can debate each one because some more than others seemed to make sense at the time.  Bottom line though, that's a ton of cap space they could have used to sign 1 or 2 true difference makers.  And that's what this team is lacking- especially on defense obviously.

That's a true statement, but the problem is that the UFA landscape has changed drastically from the mid-90's to present day.

First, significant trades rarely, if ever, happen any more.

Second, teams routinely lock up their "difference makers" before they hit UFA these days (see JJ Watt). Truth is, Wolf got lucky with a couple of those names you mentioned. Howard had modest (at best) success as a WR with both WASH (92'-94") & JAX (95") before coming to GB after being released by JAX. He was, and always would be a P/K returner (first) and WR (2nd). But in that role he was great for GB, no doubt. Robinson was an aging veteran, presumed past his prime, who (luckily) still had a little gas in the tank after 10 years with the Seahags (So did Sir Chuck). Dotson was an o.k. get for Wolf (but not a difference maker). A 5th round pick who developed into a decent role player for TB, and coming off his rookie contract, Wolf  made an offer that TB wouldn't match. He never made more than 6 sacks in a season for GB, and never had more than 38 tackles in a season. But he filled a role in the Packers defense. White was the true difference maker that Wolf got in UFA, and that was in the inaugural year of FA. Those type of players don't make it to FA any more, so it's not a fair comparison to compare Wolfs forays in the early years of FA to TT's aversion in today's UFA landscape.

Offline Yuletide

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Re: Ted Thompson - Judge for Yourself (long)
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2014, 07:20:51 PM »
It would be interesting to get a benchmark of a team's talent at drafting, by comparing it to the big draft guru's mock drafts, over the span of several years.  That would have to be mock drafts based on who the guru thinks the team *should* draft rather than who they *will* draft, though.

It seems very difficult to get a solid idea of the original thoughts a team adds to the equation of who to draft.  There is clearly a lot of consensus about how good draftees are, whether or not that consensus is accurate.  But at the same time there's plenty of variation.  There are so many variables, including stuff the team can't have any control over, such as freak injuries.  The span of a typical front office's career at a given team might not even be enough of a sample size to come to any realistic conclusion.

But it's safe to say that TT has exactly one most important draft pick, one which allowed his team to win a superbowl, and one which wasn't exactly an act of genius at the time or in retrospect.

The decision to move on from Favre, which was MM's more than TTs by most accounts, probably ranks as the best decision made by 1265 in the past 20 years.
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Offline Shinesman

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Re: Ted Thompson - Judge for Yourself (long)
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2014, 09:26:18 PM »
It would be interesting to get a benchmark of a team's talent at drafting, by comparing it to the big draft guru's mock drafts, over the span of several years.  That would have to be mock drafts based on who the guru thinks the team *should* draft rather than who they *will* draft, though.

It seems very difficult to get a solid idea of the original thoughts a team adds to the equation of who to draft.  There is clearly a lot of consensus about how good draftees are, whether or not that consensus is accurate.  But at the same time there's plenty of variation.  There are so many variables, including stuff the team can't have any control over, such as freak injuries.  The span of a typical front office's career at a given team might not even be enough of a sample size to come to any realistic conclusion.

But it's safe to say that TT has exactly one most important draft pick, one which allowed his team to win a superbowl, and one which wasn't exactly an act of genius at the time or in retrospect.

The decision to move on from Favre, which was MM's more than TTs by most accounts, probably ranks as the best decision made by 1265 in the past 20 years.

Better than the decision to trade for him? lol
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Re: Ted Thompson - Judge for Yourself (long)
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2014, 09:43:30 PM »
We can debate individual draft picks all day long.  Both Wolf and TT don't have the best track record in the 1st round.  Both have found gems in rounds 2-7, and UFA.

The difference is Wolf made bold moves that usually paid off.  Trade for Favre, Ahman Green.  FA signings like White, Dodson, Robinson, Howard.  True difference makers that took the team from horrible to the SB.

TT has had opportunities to make moves like that.  Lynch is one example.  Hester is another.  What has really cost TT is signing guys like Brad Jones, Hawk, Neal, Burnett.  The cap space invested in those guys is way more than the performance they're getting.  Now, we can debate each one because some more than others seemed to make sense at the time.  Bottom line though, that's a ton of cap space they could have used to sign 1 or 2 true difference makers.  And that's what this team is lacking- especially on defense obviously.

That's a true statement, but the problem is that the UFA landscape has changed drastically from the mid-90's to present day.

First, significant trades rarely, if ever, happen any more.

Second, teams routinely lock up their "difference makers" before they hit UFA these days (see JJ Watt). Truth is, Wolf got lucky with a couple of those names you mentioned. Howard had modest (at best) success as a WR with both WASH (92'-94") & JAX (95") before coming to GB after being released by JAX. He was, and always would be a P/K returner (first) and WR (2nd). But in that role he was great for GB, no doubt. Robinson was an aging veteran, presumed past his prime, who (luckily) still had a little gas in the tank after 10 years with the Seahags (So did Sir Chuck). Dotson was an o.k. get for Wolf (but not a difference maker). A 5th round pick who developed into a decent role player for TB, and coming off his rookie contract, Wolf  made an offer that TB wouldn't match. He never made more than 6 sacks in a season for GB, and never had more than 38 tackles in a season. But he filled a role in the Packers defense. White was the true difference maker that Wolf got in UFA, and that was in the inaugural year of FA. Those type of players don't make it to FA any more, so it's not a fair comparison to compare Wolfs forays in the early years of FA to TT's aversion in today's UFA landscape.

Marshawn Lynch, Chris Clemons & Percy Harvin (Seahawks), Anquan Boldin & Stevie Johnson - who caught the game winning TD yesterday (49ers), Darren Sproles (Eagles), Alex Smith (Chiefs), Eugene Monroe Ravens), Brandon Marshall & Jay Cutler (Bears), Aqib Talib (Patriots) are all players who were traded to decent teams the past few years.

I did not go back to the Tony Gonzalez or Randy Moss trades because I did not want to open old battles.

Trades are made in the NFL, just not by Ted Thompson.

Offline Greg C

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Re: Ted Thompson - Judge for Yourself (long)
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2014, 04:17:29 AM »
It would be interesting to get a benchmark of a team's talent at drafting, by comparing it to the big draft guru's mock drafts, over the span of several years.  That would have to be mock drafts based on who the guru thinks the team *should* draft rather than who they *will* draft, though.

It seems very difficult to get a solid idea of the original thoughts a team adds to the equation of who to draft.  There is clearly a lot of consensus about how good draftees are, whether or not that consensus is accurate.  But at the same time there's plenty of variation.  There are so many variables, including stuff the team can't have any control over, such as freak injuries.  The span of a typical front office's career at a given team might not even be enough of a sample size to come to any realistic conclusion.

But it's safe to say that TT has exactly one most important draft pick, one which allowed his team to win a superbowl, and one which wasn't exactly an act of genius at the time or in retrospect.

The decision to move on from Favre, which was MM's more than TTs by most accounts, probably ranks as the best decision made by 1265 in the past 20 years.

Better than the decision to trade for him? lol
That was more than 20 years ago.

Offline VoiceofReason

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Re: Ted Thompson - Judge for Yourself (long)
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2014, 08:33:02 AM »
We can debate individual draft picks all day long.  Both Wolf and TT don't have the best track record in the 1st round.  Both have found gems in rounds 2-7, and UFA.

The difference is Wolf made bold moves that usually paid off.  Trade for Favre, Ahman Green.  FA signings like White, Dodson, Robinson, Howard.  True difference makers that took the team from horrible to the SB.

TT has had opportunities to make moves like that.  Lynch is one example.  Hester is another.  What has really cost TT is signing guys like Brad Jones, Hawk, Neal, Burnett.  The cap space invested in those guys is way more than the performance they're getting.  Now, we can debate each one because some more than others seemed to make sense at the time.  Bottom line though, that's a ton of cap space they could have used to sign 1 or 2 true difference makers.  And that's what this team is lacking- especially on defense obviously.

That's a true statement, but the problem is that the UFA landscape has changed drastically from the mid-90's to present day.

First, significant trades rarely, if ever, happen any more.

Second, teams routinely lock up their "difference makers" before they hit UFA these days (see JJ Watt). Truth is, Wolf got lucky with a couple of those names you mentioned. Howard had modest (at best) success as a WR with both WASH (92'-94") & JAX (95") before coming to GB after being released by JAX. He was, and always would be a P/K returner (first) and WR (2nd). But in that role he was great for GB, no doubt. Robinson was an aging veteran, presumed past his prime, who (luckily) still had a little gas in the tank after 10 years with the Seahags (So did Sir Chuck). Dotson was an o.k. get for Wolf (but not a difference maker). A 5th round pick who developed into a decent role player for TB, and coming off his rookie contract, Wolf  made an offer that TB wouldn't match. He never made more than 6 sacks in a season for GB, and never had more than 38 tackles in a season. But he filled a role in the Packers defense. White was the true difference maker that Wolf got in UFA, and that was in the inaugural year of FA. Those type of players don't make it to FA any more, so it's not a fair comparison to compare Wolfs forays in the early years of FA to TT's aversion in today's UFA landscape.

Marshawn Lynch, Chris Clemons & Percy Harvin (Seahawks), Anquan Boldin & Stevie Johnson - who caught the game winning TD yesterday (49ers), Darren Sproles (Eagles), Alex Smith (Chiefs), Eugene Monroe Ravens), Brandon Marshall & Jay Cutler (Bears), Aqib Talib (Patriots) are all players who were traded to decent teams the past few years.

I did not go back to the Tony Gonzalez or Randy Moss trades because I did not want to open old battles.

Trades are made in the NFL, just not by Ted Thompson.

Exactly.  And there are still plenty of players available via FA.  Easy to say, "well a lot of times those FA signings are busts."  That's basically the job descpription of a GM- sign players who are not busts. 

Also, you can't say Ron Wolf "got lucky" by making the trades and FA signings he did.  GMs get ripped when they make a mistake, they don't get called "unlucky."  So we can't have it both ways.  They knew exactly what they needed, and how they were going to use guys like Rison, Howard, Robinson, Dotson, etc.  It wasn't luck, those guys were a fit for what they wanted/needed.  Then Favre and Green were HRs, obviously.  TT hit a HR with Woodson, and has done close to nothing in trades/FA since. 

Offline Hincha

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Re: Ted Thompson - Judge for Yourself (long)
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2014, 09:15:06 AM »
Marshawn Lynch, Chris Clemons & Percy Harvin (Seahawks), Anquan Boldin & Stevie Johnson - who caught the game winning TD yesterday (49ers), Darren Sproles (Eagles), Alex Smith (Chiefs), Eugene Monroe Ravens), Brandon Marshall & Jay Cutler (Bears), Aqib Talib (Patriots) are all players who were traded to decent teams the past few years.

I did not go back to the Tony Gonzalez or Randy Moss trades because I did not want to open old battles.

Trades are made in the NFL, just not by Ted Thompson.

As I recall Ryan Grant was traded to a "decent team".

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Re: Ted Thompson - Judge for Yourself (long)
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2014, 09:27:07 AM »
Marshawn Lynch, Chris Clemons & Percy Harvin (Seahawks), Anquan Boldin & Stevie Johnson - who caught the game winning TD yesterday (49ers), Darren Sproles (Eagles), Alex Smith (Chiefs), Eugene Monroe Ravens), Brandon Marshall & Jay Cutler (Bears), Aqib Talib (Patriots) are all players who were traded to decent teams the past few years.

I did not go back to the Tony Gonzalez or Randy Moss trades because I did not want to open old battles.

Trades are made in the NFL, just not by Ted Thompson.

As I recall Ryan Grant was traded to a "decent team".

He was ... in 2007.

Indeed, TT made a great trade by shipping a 6th rounder to the Giants for Ryan Grant.

Begs the question as to why he has not made any trades for players in the 7+ years since the Grant trade.