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Author Topic: Changes coming?  (Read 15468 times)

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Offline golfman

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Re: Changes coming?
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2015, 06:45:44 AM »
When was the last time you seen New England's offense fall apart because of the loss of one single player?  There is no reason we should have a dumpster fire for an offense just because we lost Jordy Nelson.
This is what I keep thinking.  If Bill Belichick was coaching this team, do you think the offense would be suffering like this?

So what you are saying is MM is the problem?

I know this question isn't directed at me, but I will answer it anyway. There's a lot of football left in season, so I'm still hoping they pull out of this mess. But if the Packers blow a 6-0 start after the epic choke in last year's NFC championship game, that would be two huge chokes in a row. I would go so far as to say MM's team identity is a bunch of talent that chokes.

As I said in the Chicago game day thread, my opinion of MM has fallen from an above-average to average coach to an average to slightly below-average coach. I still think he's a good offensive mind, but not a leader-of-men. If things continue to go poorly, I think it's worth taking a chance to replace him just to change the team's identity--it's likely that you're not going to get a much better coach, but I don't think we should keep handing MM the keys and expect anything different. The trick would be keeping TT on for a few years when he has to develop a working relationship with another head coach.

Anyway, I remember during the darker moments of 2010 making a somewhat similar post. Let's hope the team can have success going forward and avoid the mess that change would create.

TT is the GM so any new coach would have to get used to him, not the other way around. I don't see MM going anywhere but do agree with some of your assessment. I think the prudent thing to do is see how this year plays out. A 1-4 or 0-5 finish may answer all questions. Then again a 5-0 finish and a trip to the Super Bowl, no matter how unlikely at this point will have all of us here wanting him immediately enshrined in Canton.

Hoping for the latter but fearing the former based on current performances of this team. 
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Offline Leader

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Re: Changes coming?
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2015, 07:16:46 AM »

As far as MM being fired, its an entirely specious argument. 

Offline golfman

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Re: Changes coming?
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2015, 08:43:48 AM »

As far as MM being fired, its an entirely specious argument.

At this particular moment in the season you are absolutely correct. Like I said, a 1-4 or 0-5 finish and the conversation is entirely different. You may not believe that or choose not to but it would be.

Hoping for a 5-0 finish, but given what we've seen of late that is out of pure optimism rather than based on what we've seen on the field.
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Offline Leader

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Re: Changes coming?
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2015, 09:20:45 AM »

As far as MM being fired, its an entirely specious argument.

At this particular moment in the season you are absolutely correct. Like I said, a 1-4 or 0-5 finish and the conversation is entirely different. You may not believe that or choose not to but it would be. Hoping for a 5-0 finish, but given what we've seen of late that is out of pure optimism rather than based on what we've seen on the field.

And you've just highlighted the reason your own "arguments" are false - perfectly.

In your own words - you've given MM as pass. Up to today. Up to 7+4. Right now. (Now I know thats not actually the case as you've highlighted "game management/adjustments, supposed soft teams, ill conceived time outs or challenge flags, a "shelf life" or warranty on HC's in the NFL and defensive performance as critical reasons he should be fired or let go. No matter that in the big picture they're all minor reasons - but thats the list. Heard for years now.)   

BUT - if we continue to trend downward *this season* - it suddenly becomes a viable discussion.

So - in your own words - it becomes a matter of the next five games. DISCOUNTING ENTIRELY - the past years of success - INCLUDING this seasons 7+4 record up to today. Right now.

Discounting that which matters most in the NFL:  W's + L's. 
They dont compute in your equation. They dont matter. They're irrelevant. You dont mention them - for good reason.

Your decision will be based on consideration of the next five games - now listen, you've been saying the same things for years - impervious to the team's success - but these next five games to be played are "played up" to such a degree - they're suddently so important and critical - that the YEARS of success must be discounted.

THATS a specious argument.

And thats not a belief of mine. Thats knowledge. Should the season go south - MM will be given the opportunity to right the ship. As he should.


« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 09:25:24 AM by Leader »

Offline iarwain

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Re: Changes coming?
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2015, 10:13:10 AM »
I'm a big fan of McCarthy myself.  And as you note, no matter what happens this season, McCarthy will be back next year with a chance to right the ship.
However, if the current malaise that has struck the team continues through next season, I would begin to wonder if he hadn't lost the team.

Regarding Sean Payton, I would argue McCarthy has done more with Rodgers and the Packers than Payton has done with Brees and the Saints, even though they each have a ring.

Offline golfman

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Re: Changes coming?
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2015, 10:19:13 AM »
We have a difference of opinion! I would have been perfectly fine with relieving MM after the '12 or '13 season for the reasons I stated which happen to be true. Whether you choose to see them or not. Now if his team starts out 6-0 and finishes 7-9 or 8-8 of course any GM is going to consider maybe his time has come to move in another direction. Do I think they finish that poorly, I really hope not.

You think somehow he won a Super Bowl so he should get a lifetime contract. That is your OPINION, I respect it but differs from mine. Another effort like Thursday against Detroit this Thursday and you'l start to see a whole lot more people starting to question his job stability. I'm talking about the media, not a message board. Another effort like Thursday and you'll start to hear the rumblings in the locker room too.

Let's hope we don't get there, but make no mistake the product they put on the field after a 6-0 start with basically the same guys is not acceptable. Nobody will accept that as the norm and guess where the buck stops?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 10:28:06 AM by golfman »
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Offline ricky

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Re: Changes coming?
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2015, 03:19:33 PM »
We're all frustrated, angry and disappointed at how this season is shaping up. A team that came within four minutes of the SB last season, and this season unbeaten the first six games. Though, to be honest, we all were somewhat puzzled by the offense not seeming to be in sync- but as I repeatedly said, they'd won, so don't worry. How naive that now seems. So, what is the problem? Here's some shocking stats.

-The Packers are 24th in passing in the NFL.

-Check out how Rodgers passing has gone downhill from the start of the season- scroll down to "2015 Games" in the link:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RodgAa00.htm

-Now, how about offensive stats for the team? Not good. http://www.nfl.com/teams/statistics?team=GB

So, what is the problem? There has been a sharp dropoff by the offense since the bye week. We can blame injuries, but, as noted, other teams have overcome the same problem. Have a shake-up in the coaching staff? Maybe. I'm all for bringing back Philbin (for some reason, I got him confused with Witt, the DB coach- "oldtimer's disease", maybe). Find out if Adams is really as good as many predicted, or if he's just a rehash of Boykin. Now, trying something completely new in the offense sounds like a fine idea- bunch formations, "rub" routes, etc. But given that the team has not done this up to this point, that the timing/trust between the WR's and QB is questionable, at best, and there is literally no time to introduce new concepts AND have time to practice them this late in the season makes the idea interesting, but impractical.

So, what can be done right now? Hope that Montgomery gets healthy, and has some practice time with Rodgers. Hope that Cobb and Adams start catching the ball, start running better routes, and start to get some small separation. Hope that Rodgers simply starts flinging the ball; at this point, he needs to put his phobia about interceptions aside for a while, and take some chances. Get Lacy back in; whatever was ailing him seems to be fixed, What does the team have to lose? They're fighting for a wild card spot right now, and unless they get on a roll quickly, they are in danger of watching the playoffs on TV, rather than the sidelines.

After the season, time to look at the team, and make some hard decisions. At WR and TE in particular. On the OL, time for Bakhtiari to be replaced. For me, Joe Thomas  deadhorse) but, golfman has made me re-think my trade strategy. Since he is going to be 32, that changes the equation completely. Though I'd still go for a first for him, it would be best if Cleveland threw in a mid-round pick to even things out. Unless there was a player in the draft that could immediately help the Packers, who would be likely to be on the board when they pick in the first. That would include OL, WR, TE, ILB. However, the problem is that a draft pick is an unknown, while Thomas is a proven commodity. Also, check the NFL FA class, and see if there is an immediate upgrade available at a decent price. And, finally, take a look at the players who are up for renewal on the Packers this year before we even talk about any of this. Because there are going to be some players the Packers are going to want to keep- Daniel, Crosby for instance. And others who may be on the proverbial "bubble"- Guion and Peppers in particular.
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Offline Leader

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Re: Changes coming?
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2015, 05:15:24 PM »
Add Casey Hayward to that bubble list. IMO he's never achieved the promise of his rookie season and this - his first full time use - has been less than stellar. By current CB standards, he's cheaper than dirt. Whether he finds a pot of semi-riches elsewhere remains to be seen - but its not beyond the pale a team with a need.......

I dont know what I'd do with him. A better read of the films would be needed to truly know how effective/ineffective he's been - but from what I've seen (or recognized) - I think its been the latter.

Offline golfman

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Re: Changes coming?
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2015, 06:30:54 PM »
Based on what I've seen from Casey Hayward, his bubble has burst. Let him go and hope someone pays him a bunch so we get a draft pick out of it. We've got the three rookies and Randall and Rollins look like they have upside. Gunter is an unknown and Goodson has improved.

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Online The GM

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Re: Changes coming?
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2015, 09:32:14 PM »
Sean Peyton anybody. We are stuck in neutral time for a different direction or at least bring Philben back.

MM isnt going anywhere.  He's  a year removed from the NFCCG.  Its funny because  I was thinking about who could replace MM.  I came up with Payton.  You dont want to gamble Rodgers future on some unproven coordinator.  You want a experienced HC with an offensive background.  He was a strong  candidate for the Packers job when TT hired MM. MM isnt going to be fired, but this Packer team reminds me at times of some of Mike Sherman's struggling teams toward the end.

Offline VoiceofReason

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Re: Changes coming?
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2015, 10:11:07 AM »
We have a difference of opinion! I would have been perfectly fine with relieving MM after the '12 or '13 season for the reasons I stated which happen to be true. Whether you choose to see them or not. Now if his team starts out 6-0 and finishes 7-9 or 8-8 of course any GM is going to consider maybe his time has come to move in another direction. Do I think they finish that poorly, I really hope not.

You think somehow he won a Super Bowl so he should get a lifetime contract. That is your OPINION, I respect it but differs from mine. Another effort like Thursday against Detroit this Thursday and you'l start to see a whole lot more people starting to question his job stability. I'm talking about the media, not a message board. Another effort like Thursday and you'll start to hear the rumblings in the locker room too.

Let's hope we don't get there, but make no mistake the product they put on the field after a 6-0 start with basically the same guys is not acceptable. Nobody will accept that as the norm and guess where the buck stops?

Agree 100%.  I was the crazy one asking for a change after the 2012 and 2013 seasons.  This regime has run it's course. TT/ MM, everyone needs to go and start over again.  That's not R&V, it's an opinion I formed long ago, and I have been dead-on accurate ever since.  TT/MM had better teams than this one and failed even making it to the SB.  Including a 15-1 season and last year's debacle in Seattle. 

I like MM.  And I like TT.  There just comes a time when you get set in your ways, everyone is on to you, and you just can't adapt.  That's where we are now.  Losing at Lambeau in the playoffs has become an annual tradition, and that needs to change. 

Not trying to change anyone's mind, I know I'm in the minority.   

Offline ricky

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Re: Changes coming?
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2015, 03:23:17 PM »
Agree 100%.  I was the crazy one asking for a change after the 2012 and 2013 seasons.  This regime has run it's course. TT/ MM, everyone needs to go and start over again.  That's not R&V, it's an opinion I formed long ago, and I have been dead-on accurate ever since.  TT/MM had better teams than this one and failed even making it to the SB.  Including a 15-1 season and last year's debacle in Seattle. 

I like MM.  And I like TT.  There just comes a time when you get set in your ways, everyone is on to you, and you just can't adapt.  That's where we are now.  Losing at Lambeau in the playoffs has become an annual tradition, and that needs to change. 

Not trying to change anyone's mind, I know I'm in the minority.

VOR, your argument to get rid of MM and TT seems a bit suspicious. You state that the Packers had very good teams that underachieved. OK, not making the SB with some of those teams was definitely a bad deal- last year in particular. But, who chose the players that made those teams so good? TT. So, getting rid of someone who has consistently provided players who are part of an underachieving team is hardly his fault. MM, sure, let's talk. But TT? Nope.
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Offline LMG

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Re: Changes coming?
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2015, 05:21:21 PM »
Suspicious?

Some people only post when the team is having a bad run...otherwise they are inactive in the Forums.

In VOR's case he was absent here since December 12, 2014 until lately....just saying.

But whatever.....maybe he did not have Internet access for almost a year.  crazy)
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Offline Bignutz

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Re: Changes coming?
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2015, 10:18:56 PM »
We have a difference of opinion! I would have been perfectly fine with relieving MM after the '12 or '13 season for the reasons I stated which happen to be true. Whether you choose to see them or not. Now if his team starts out 6-0 and finishes 7-9 or 8-8 of course any GM is going to consider maybe his time has come to move in another direction. Do I think they finish that poorly, I really hope not.

You think somehow he won a Super Bowl so he should get a lifetime contract. That is your OPINION, I respect it but differs from mine. Another effort like Thursday against Detroit this Thursday and you'l start to see a whole lot more people starting to question his job stability. I'm talking about the media, not a message board. Another effort like Thursday and you'll start to hear the rumblings in the locker room too.

Let's hope we don't get there, but make no mistake the product they put on the field after a 6-0 start with basically the same guys is not acceptable. Nobody will accept that as the norm and guess where the buck stops?

Agree 100%.  I was the crazy one asking for a change after the 2012 and 2013 seasons.  This regime has run it's course. TT/ MM, everyone needs to go and start over again.  That's not R&V, it's an opinion I formed long ago, and I have been dead-on accurate ever since.  TT/MM had better teams than this one and failed even making it to the SB.  Including a 15-1 season and last year's debacle in Seattle. 

I like MM.  And I like TT.  There just comes a time when you get set in your ways, everyone is on to you, and you just can't adapt.  That's where we are now.  Losing at Lambeau in the playoffs has become an annual tradition, and that needs to change. 

Not trying to change anyone's mind, I know I'm in the minority.

OK fire TT and MM! And get who?? You keep arguing for a change but I've yet to see who you think we should hire?
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Offline VoiceofReason

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Re: Changes coming?
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2015, 09:06:51 AM »
Quote
So, getting rid of someone who has consistently provided players who are part of an underachieving team is hardly his fault. MM, sure, let's talk. But TT? Nope.

Yea, valid point Ricky.  It's what I really struggle with.  Has TT drafted a ton of talent, and MM has fallen short with that talent?  Or is the talent not as good as we think. in which case TT is more responsible? 

Adams is a great example.  By all accounts, he had a great off-season, known for fighting for balls and winning.  We aren't seeing it during the season.  Is he just a slow WR with bad hands?  If yes, that's on TT.  But if he does have more talent there, it's on the coaching staff for not finding a way to get the best out of him.  Now, I know it's ultimately a player's responsibility to play his best.  But if it's as simple as that, coaches wouldn't have any responsibility.  Just " oh well, players have to make plays."

We know TT has failed too often in the 1st round.  To this day, there is not a LB to complement Matthews.  The front seven is mediocre.  Then, on top of that, it now appears the O line and WRs/TEs were over-rated and seem to be very pedestrian.  (No doubt losing Jordy is a big part of that.)

So, at the end of the day, when I look at it overall TT and MM have both done a good job, but not a great job.  I would be fine just replacing MM and see how that works for a year or two.  But I guess I would just rather rip the Band-Aid off and get it over with quickly and move on with a whole new regime.  TT is not getting any younger either.