November 20, 2018, 07:47:11 PM

Author Topic: How good a coach is MM really?  (Read 5155 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Leader

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13020
  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2017, 02:07:34 PM »
Don Shula, widely regarded as one of the greatest coaches of all time, never won a Super Bowl with Dan Marino as his quarterback for 18 seasons.  Shula's record with Marino as his quarterback in the playoffs was 8 wins & 10 losses.

 People say all kinds of nonsense, it doesn't mean they know what they're talking about.

Thank you.

Offline dannobanano

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4640
  • Karma: +10/-0
Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2017, 04:12:50 PM »
QB's like Rivers, Palmer, Ryan, Stafford, and Newton are all what I would consider as elite level QB's and this group has yet to win a SB.

A prolific 1st ballot HOF QB like Drew Brees only has 1 SB title.
Same with Rodgers and Favre.

The only Elite level QB's that have multiple SB titles in this millennium are Brady, Rothlisberger, Peyton Manning, and Eli Manning (and I don't consider him elite).

It can't be done with just an elite QB.

You need (at least) a decent defense, as well, to make it happen and this is one of the reasons why GB only has 2 SB titles between 2 HOF QB's over the last 25 years.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 04:14:29 PM by dannobanano »

Offline B

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4152
  • Karma: +4/-0
Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2017, 09:16:14 PM »
Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Fran Tarkenton  are all in the Hall of Fame, and none of them ever won a Superbowl.  Neither did Dan Fouts despite being a dominant quarterback.

Some argue Paul Brown was the greatest coach of all time, I don't agree, but he was a great coach, and he never won a Super Bowl.

But Grant, Marv Levy, Dan Reeves, Don Coryell, Andy Reid George Allen, Sid Gillman, and Chuck Knox never won a Super Bowl.
The Green Bay Packers never lost a football game.
They just ran out of time.
-Vince Lombardi

Offline B

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4152
  • Karma: +4/-0
Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2017, 09:59:04 PM »

Coach Wins In First 11 Regular Seasons (2006-16)
 1. Don Shula, BAL/MIA 117
 2. Joe Gibbs, WAS 115
 3t. Mike McCarthy, GB 114
3t. Tony Dungy, TB/IND 114
 3t. George Seifert, SF/CAR 114

Ya gotta admit that is some pretty elite company that Mike runs with

 Games Needed For 100 Regular-Season Wins
 Coach (Current)
 1. Mike McCarthy, GB 150
 2. Andy Reid, PHI/KC 164
 3. Bill Belichick, CLE/NE 177
 4. John Fox, CAR/DEN 182

Winning % by active coaches minimum of 100
Coach Winning Pct.
 1. Bill Belichick, CLE/NE .680 (266-125)
2. Mike McCarthy, GB .642 (126-70-1)
 3. Mike Tomlin, PIT .638 (113-64)
 4. Andy Reid, Phil/KC .607 (176-114-1)

McCarthy: 128-72-1, .646 (incl. 10-8 postseason); 11th NFL season

Led the Packers to their eighth consecutive playoff appearance last season, tied for the third-longest streak in NFL history.

Has also led the team to nine playoff appearances in the last 10 years (2007, 2009-16).

Ranks second in franchise history in total victories, trailing only Curly Lambeau.

If that's mediocrity, I'll take it.
The Green Bay Packers never lost a football game.
They just ran out of time.
-Vince Lombardi

Offline Pugger

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5326
  • Karma: +4/-1
Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2017, 05:01:37 AM »

Coach Wins In First 11 Regular Seasons (2006-16)
 1. Don Shula, BAL/MIA 117
 2. Joe Gibbs, WAS 115
 3t. Mike McCarthy, GB 114
3t. Tony Dungy, TB/IND 114
 3t. George Seifert, SF/CAR 114

Ya gotta admit that is some pretty elite company that Mike runs with

 Games Needed For 100 Regular-Season Wins
 Coach (Current)
 1. Mike McCarthy, GB 150
 2. Andy Reid, PHI/KC 164
 3. Bill Belichick, CLE/NE 177
 4. John Fox, CAR/DEN 182

Winning % by active coaches minimum of 100
Coach Winning Pct.
 1. Bill Belichick, CLE/NE .680 (266-125)
2. Mike McCarthy, GB .642 (126-70-1)
 3. Mike Tomlin, PIT .638 (113-64)
 4. Andy Reid, Phil/KC .607 (176-114-1)

McCarthy: 128-72-1, .646 (incl. 10-8 postseason); 11th NFL season

Led the Packers to their eighth consecutive playoff appearance last season, tied for the third-longest streak in NFL history.

Has also led the team to nine playoff appearances in the last 10 years (2007, 2009-16).

Ranks second in franchise history in total victories, trailing only Curly Lambeau.

If that's mediocrity, I'll take it.

I'll take it too but you just know there will be people who will say McCarthy only wins because he had HOF QBs.  Of course most of those winning HCs also had wonderful QBs.

Offline Tony

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 901
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2017, 09:29:24 AM »
So, with deference to the past, what’s MM gotta due now and in the future to get another championship?  I’m more concerned with this question frankly.  He still has time with AR.
“There’s a man going round, taking names, and he decides who to free and who to blame!”  LMG ala Johnny Cash

Online ricky

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5509
  • Karma: +12/-1
Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2017, 12:39:30 PM »
What coach won consistently without a franchise QB? This means, to me, stringing several winning seasons together. So, Marv Levy never won a SB. But he did get the Bills to four SB's in a row. But, he had a HOF QB. So, would another coach have done better? Tony Dungy finally won a SB with Peyton Manning, while Jon Gruden took essentially the same team Dungy had in Tampa Bay and won a SB with Brad Johnson. So, what can we infer from that, if anything? That Gruden is a better coach than Dungy?

Personally, I think this is a tired argument. Could Belichick win without Brady? Could Brady without Belichick? The Pats went 10-6 and missed the playoffs with Ryan Mallett. Mallett is now a journeyman QB. Case Keenum could very well be a SB winning QB this year (though I shudder to even write this heresy). Does that mean Zimmer is a better coach than coaches with HOF QB's who didn't win a SB? It's not as if getting to the SB multiple times is all that easy, as B's post pointed out quite well. If the Patriots had not gotten there seven times with Brady, this would not even be a consideration.
"My hopes are not always realized, but I always hope." Ovid

Offline Twain

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3167
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2017, 03:37:02 PM »

You need (at least) a decent defense, as well, to make it happen and this is one of the reasons why GB only has 2 SB titles between 2 HOF QB's over the last 25 years.

If you look at the 1997 packers, you can see how difficult it is to win a super bowl, even with a HOF QB and a great defense.
"The trouble ain't that there are too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right."

Offline walker16

  • All Pro
  • ****
  • Posts: 349
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2017, 05:47:58 PM »
who else to compare to
back to back hof qbs?
Only one come to mind would be the 49ers  ( Montana/Young )
How many SB games with these 2.
Of course I dont know how free agency/cap issues cloud that.

We are a spoiled state. Badgers & Packers have been on very good run.

Offline Pugger

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5326
  • Karma: +4/-1
Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2017, 10:48:59 PM »
Name a coach who was successful for multiple years who didn't have a franchise QB. Or, in the case of some very lucky coaches, more than one top drawer QB. Please note the "multiple years" before responding. This doesn't have to be SB winners. Just teams with the same coach who have been successful for an extended period of time.

I think that is the point...having that type of QB pretty much guarantees the success that we have seen under MM...there are quite a few coaches that have won a superbowl and been consistant with a QB that isn't as good as Rodgers...Steelers, Ravens, Seattle etc..

EB

Yes, but most of the time when these coaches have won a SB with a QB that isn't as good as Rodgers they had a superior defense, especially with the Ravens and Flacco. 

Online ricky

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5509
  • Karma: +12/-1
Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2017, 06:30:35 AM »
Yes, but most of the time when these coaches have won a SB with a QB that isn't as good as Rodgers they had a superior defense, especially with the Ravens and Flacco.

Or Ravens and Dilfer; or Bears and McMahon; Or Tampa Bay and Johnson. Or the Giants and Manning, plus a couple of incredible catches (I'm looking at you, David Tyree). So, is MM a good coach? All we have to go on is the record, and it says he is a good coach. Should we also throw Belichick into disrepute? Holmgren? Jimmy Johnson? Lombardi?
"My hopes are not always realized, but I always hope." Ovid

Offline RT

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2458
  • Karma: +7/-0
Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2017, 01:43:54 PM »
I'm not on the fire MM bandwagon, but I do think their is a shelf life for a head coach. Change can be a good thing at times.

Offline B

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4152
  • Karma: +4/-0
Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2017, 04:17:51 PM »
who else to compare to
back to back hof qbs?
Only one come to mind would be the 49ers  ( Montana/Young )
How many SB games with these 2.
Of course I dont know how free agency/cap issues cloud that.

We are a spoiled state. Badgers & Packers have been on very good run.

I agree we have been spoiled and...

Shula also holds the distinction of having coached five different quarterbacks to Super Bowl appearances (Johnny Unitas and Earl Morrall in 1968, Bob Griese in 1971, 1972, and 1973, David Woodley in 1982, and Dan Marino in 1984),

Unitas, Griese, and Marino are all in the Hall of Famers.

All of Bill Bellichick's success has been with Tom Brady has his quarterback. Ditto Vince Lombardi with Bart Starr.
The Green Bay Packers never lost a football game.
They just ran out of time.
-Vince Lombardi

Offline claymaker

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2945
  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2017, 04:57:57 PM »
I know one thing for sure, if McCarthy were to get fired he'd have another HC job with another team. He's built a great program in Green Bay and won a Super Bowl.

You think the Saints are ready to dump Sean Payton? Another great coach who probably gets flamed on boards just like this who would easily have another HC job. There are about 5 teams with Head Coaches who shouldn't be Head Coaches: New York Jets, Chargers, Dolphins, Redskins. Aside from that name me a better HC than McCarthy who would realistically be available to them if they fired him. For real, name one.

Online The GM

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2388
  • Karma: +9/-0
Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2017, 05:26:47 PM »
I know one thing for sure, if McCarthy were to get fired he'd have another HC job with another team. He's built a great program in Green Bay and won a Super Bowl.

You think the Saints are ready to dump Sean Payton? Another great coach who probably gets flamed on boards just like this who would easily have another HC job. There are about 5 teams with Head Coaches who shouldn't be Head Coaches: New York Jets, Chargers, Dolphins, Redskins. Aside from that name me a better HC than McCarthy who would realistically be available to them if they fired him. For real, name one.
Got no issues with McCarthy if he makes the right decisions this offseason.  Packer success comes from getting coordinators to be HC in Green Bay. Lombardi, Holmgren, and McCarthy all were offensive coordinators and hired as the HC in Green Bay.  Thats worked out pretty well.  Not sure I'd change that approach.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 05:28:32 PM by The GM »