November 20, 2018, 08:34:08 PM

Author Topic: How good a coach is MM really?  (Read 5156 times)

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Offline robertgoulet

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Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2017, 09:10:24 PM »
Listen he definitely deserves some credit for consistant play of this team over time but where would he be without Rodgers? If you take Rodgers and put him on any other team are they are a consistant playoff team and maybe even challenging for championships? I have to be honest and say that I am starting to believe MM is a average coach who lucked into an all world QB...just saying...

EB

In the most literal sense, 2-8-1 when Rodgers is injured.  Hasn't been able to develop any QBs but Rodgers in his time here despite having a reputation as a QB guru.
This is the thing. It's not what he's done with a HOF QB as much as what he's done without one. Yes every coach will have a worse record minus a HOF QB but there are plenty of teams that dont that still find a way to win games. Hell the texans went to the playoffs with brock osweiler. Unfortunately i fear that record is gonna be close to 2-20 or 3-19 by the end of the season. To me that says no hes not a good coach.

Offline robertgoulet

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Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2017, 09:18:58 PM »
I know one thing for sure, if McCarthy were to get fired he'd have another HC job with another team. He's built a great program in Green Bay and won a Super Bowl.

You think the Saints are ready to dump Sean Payton? Another great coach who probably gets flamed on boards just like this who would easily have another HC job. There are about 5 teams with Head Coaches who shouldn't be Head Coaches: New York Jets, Chargers, Dolphins, Redskins. Aside from that name me a better HC than McCarthy who would realistically be available to them if they fired him. For real, name one.
How about the guy who just schooled us...Jim Bob Cooter
Matt Patricia
Mike Vrabel
Frank Reich

Offline Whiskey Sam

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Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2017, 06:27:08 AM »
Listen he definitely deserves some credit for consistant play of this team over time but where would he be without Rodgers? If you take Rodgers and put him on any other team are they are a consistant playoff team and maybe even challenging for championships? I have to be honest and say that I am starting to believe MM is a average coach who lucked into an all world QB...just saying...

EB

In the most literal sense, 2-8-1 when Rodgers is injured.  Hasn't been able to develop any QBs but Rodgers in his time here despite having a reputation as a QB guru.
This is the thing. It's not what he's done with a HOF QB as much as what he's done without one. Yes every coach will have a worse record minus a HOF QB but there are plenty of teams that dont that still find a way to win games. Hell the texans went to the playoffs with brock osweiler. Unfortunately i fear that record is gonna be close to 2-20 or 3-19 by the end of the season. To me that says no hes not a good coach.

Yep, there is a difference between being "not as good" when you lose your star player and not even being competitive. This is a bad football team with an overmatched coaching staff when they don't have a HOF to cover for it.  For all the talk of Shula, he wasted Marino's career because his 80s Dolphin teams were nowhere near as good as his 70s Dolphins teams despite having a better QB.  Shula's coaching reputation was built in 60's and 70's not in the 80's on when he racked up regular season wins while flaming out in the playoffs every year.

Online ricky

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Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2017, 11:20:04 AM »
How about the guy who just schooled us...Jim Bob Cooter
Matt Patricia
Mike Vrabel
Frank Reich

I just hope your wish doesn't come true. Because all these guys are total unknowns. Please let us know why any of these guys would be better than MM. And keep in mind, Cooter has a somewhat checkered past. I googled "Jim Bob Cooter driving naked" and got these hits. Sounds like "Packer People" to me.

https://www.google.com/search?q=jim+bob+cooter+naked+driving&rlz=1CAACAC_enUS539US539&oq=jim+bob+cooter+naked+driving&aqs=chrome..69i57.8855j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
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Offline robertgoulet

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Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2017, 02:09:45 PM »
How about the guy who just schooled us...Jim Bob Cooter
Matt Patricia
Mike Vrabel
Frank Reich

I just hope your wish doesn't come true. Because all these guys are total unknowns. Please let us know why any of these guys would be better than MM. And keep in mind, Cooter has a somewhat checkered past. I googled "Jim Bob Cooter driving naked" and got these hits. Sounds like "Packer People" to me.

https://www.google.com/search?q=jim+bob+cooter+naked+driving&rlz=1CAACAC_enUS539US539&oq=jim+bob+cooter+naked+driving&aqs=chrome..69i57.8855j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
While none have been head coaches I wouldn't say they are unknown. And I would say they all have far better track records than MM did when he was hired.

Patricia and Vrabel both have been highly successful coaches/coordinators in this league. Cooter is considered a up and coming offensive mind. Reich has turned carson wentz into a mvp candidate in only his 2nd season

Online ricky

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Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2017, 02:35:03 PM »
While none have been head coaches I wouldn't say they are unknown. And I would say they all have far better track records than MM did when he was hired.

Patricia and Vrabel both have been highly successful coaches/coordinators in this league. Cooter is considered a up and coming offensive mind. Reich has turned carson wentz into a mvp candidate in only his 2nd season

Patricia works with Belichick, considered a master defensive mind. Vrabel has been a DC for one year. So, that makes him highly successful? Cooter is a guy with a very troubled past. And, by the way, when was the last time the Lions made the playoffs with him and Stafford? Reich is a QB guru, and is playing with an apparently very good QB. Similar to what MM did with Rodgers. So, you want Reich to do what? Improve Rodgers? Have the Packers let Rodgers walk and coach up Hundley? What?

And, once again, name a head coach who has had sustained success without a franchise QB.This means multiple years with winning records, and/or making the playoffs. Not one year; not even a HOF QB, but a very good QB. That coach doesn't exist. And as far as how man wins has without either Favre or Rodgers, how about that. Suddenly take away the heart and soul of the team, and you don't win as much. How shocking!



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Offline robertgoulet

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Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2017, 06:50:33 PM »
While none have been head coaches I wouldn't say they are unknown. And I would say they all have far better track records than MM did when he was hired.

Patricia and Vrabel both have been highly successful coaches/coordinators in this league. Cooter is considered a up and coming offensive mind. Reich has turned carson wentz into a mvp candidate in only his 2nd season

Patricia works with Belichick, considered a master defensive mind. Vrabel has been a DC for one year. So, that makes him highly successful? Cooter is a guy with a very troubled past. And, by the way, when was the last time the Lions made the playoffs with him and Stafford? Reich is a QB guru, and is playing with an apparently very good QB. Similar to what MM did with Rodgers. So, you want Reich to do what? Improve Rodgers? Have the Packers let Rodgers walk and coach up Hundley? What?

And, once again, name a head coach who has had sustained success without a franchise QB.This means multiple years with winning records, and/or making the playoffs. Not one year; not even a HOF QB, but a very good QB. That coach doesn't exist. And as far as how man wins has without either Favre or Rodgers, how about that. Suddenly take away the heart and soul of the team, and you don't win as much. How shocking!
I would say andy Reid. Outside of mcnabb hes won with Matt cassel Alex Smith and Nick foles
Gruden won with brad Johnson
I would even say tom Coughlin with eli manning who isn't what I would consider very good

Offline robertgoulet

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Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2017, 07:24:23 PM »
And while not sustained success I would argue a good coach should be able to have SOME success without a HOF QB which MM has not

Online ricky

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Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2017, 06:00:12 AM »
I would say andy Reid. Outside of mcnabb hes won with Matt cassel Alex Smith and Nick foles
Gruden won with brad Johnson
I would even say tom Coughlin with eli manning who isn't what I would consider very good

Reid had McNab. Not HOF, but definitely a very good QB. Same with Smith. How many games did he win with Foles? Gruden won a SB with Brad Johnson, playing against his former team, the Raiders. And he was fired two years later, I believe. Hardly "sustained success". Eli Manning is an average QB in the regular season. Get him into the playoffs and he suddenly blossoms.

Try again. Because you're mistaken on this one. Though I'll give you the rare exception. The Ravens won consistently with an outstanding defense, and finally won a SB when they found that Trent Dilfer could be a decent game manager. Tampa Bay, as you noted, did the same thing with Gruden and Johnson. But these are outliers in an overwhelming number of HC's who had franchise QB's on their teams.
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Offline Pugger

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Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2017, 08:01:08 AM »
I would say andy Reid. Outside of mcnabb hes won with Matt cassel Alex Smith and Nick foles
Gruden won with brad Johnson
I would even say tom Coughlin with eli manning who isn't what I would consider very good

Reid had McNab. Not HOF, but definitely a very good QB. Same with Smith. How many games did he win with Foles? Gruden won a SB with Brad Johnson, playing against his former team, the Raiders. And he was fired two years later, I believe. Hardly "sustained success". Eli Manning is an average QB in the regular season. Get him into the playoffs and he suddenly blossoms.

Try again. Because you're mistaken on this one. Though I'll give you the rare exception. The Ravens won consistently with an outstanding defense, and finally won a SB when they found that Trent Dilfer could be a decent game manager. Tampa Bay, as you noted, did the same thing with Gruden and Johnson. But these are outliers in an overwhelming number of HC's who had franchise QB's on their teams.

I'm not ready to move on from McCarthy either.  My only beef with him is he can be loyal to his assistants almost to a fault.  We all bemoaned about our STs for years.  It took that meltdown in Seattle to finally force Mac to can Slocom.  If the defense continues to look this horrendous Mike may be forced by either TT or Murphy to make a change.

I'm not all that surprised Hundley is struggling.  He slipped to the 5th round for a reason.  Like someone said - perhaps Ted and Mike thought they could do something with Brett so they took a chance.  He still might turn out to be a McCown caliber QB.  He only has a couple of starts under his belt.  But unless he improves hugely in the next few weeks he'll be hard pressed to be anything more than a below average starter.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 08:02:08 AM by Pugger »

Offline robertgoulet

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Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2017, 10:09:05 AM »
I would say andy Reid. Outside of mcnabb hes won with Matt cassel Alex Smith and Nick foles
Gruden won with brad Johnson
I would even say tom Coughlin with eli manning who isn't what I would consider very good

Reid had McNab. Not HOF, but definitely a very good QB. Same with Smith. How many games did he win with Foles? Gruden won a SB with Brad Johnson, playing against his former team, the Raiders. And he was fired two years later, I believe. Hardly "sustained success". Eli Manning is an average QB in the regular season. Get him into the playoffs and he suddenly blossoms.

Try again. Because you're mistaken on this one. Though I'll give you the rare exception. The Ravens won consistently with an outstanding defense, and finally won a SB when they found that Trent Dilfer could be a decent game manager. Tampa Bay, as you noted, did the same thing with Gruden and Johnson. But these are outliers in an overwhelming number of HC's who had franchise QB's on their teams.
I agree it's hard to have sustained success without a franchise qb. But MM has had NO success without one. A HOF QB can make any coach look good. Do you honestly think if we move on from MM and Rodgers comes back 100% Aaron freaking Rodgers like that we would be any worse?

Offline robertgoulet

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Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2017, 10:14:39 AM »
While none have been head coaches I wouldn't say they are unknown. And I would say they all have far better track records than MM did when he was hired.

Patricia and Vrabel both have been highly successful coaches/coordinators in this league. Cooter is considered a up and coming offensive mind. Reich has turned carson wentz into a mvp candidate in only his 2nd season

Patricia works with Belichick, considered a master defensive mind. Vrabel has been a DC for one year. So, that makes him highly successful? Cooter is a guy with a very troubled past. And, by the way, when was the last time the Lions made the playoffs with him and Stafford? Reich is a QB guru, and is playing with an apparently very good QB. Similar to what MM did with Rodgers. So, you want Reich to do what? Improve Rodgers? Have the Packers let Rodgers walk and coach up Hundley? What?

And, once again, name a head coach who has had sustained success without a franchise QB.This means multiple years with winning records, and/or making the playoffs. Not one year; not even a HOF QB, but a very good QB. That coach doesn't exist. And as far as how man wins has without either Favre or Rodgers, how about that. Suddenly take away the heart and soul of the team, and you don't win as much. How shocking!
First off, you asked when the lions made the playoffs with him as coordinator? LAST YEAR!

Second you cast doubt on the others accomplishments. They all are far more successful than MM was when he was hired. The previous season he was coordinator for one of the most inept offenses in history. He was QB coach for us in 99 when we went 8-8 And missed the playoffs for the first time in favres career. And he had a couple ok years as the saints coordinator. How is any of that more success than any of the guys I listed

Online ricky

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Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2017, 12:38:45 PM »
First off, you asked when the lions made the playoffs with him as coordinator? LAST YEAR!

Second you cast doubt on the others accomplishments. They all are far more successful than MM was when he was hired. The previous season he was coordinator for one of the most inept offenses in history. He was QB coach for us in 99 when we went 8-8 And missed the playoffs for the first time in favres career. And he had a couple ok years as the saints coordinator. How is any of that more success than any of the guys I listed

MM has won a lot of games. He has done it with very good QB's. With Favre, he did something I thought was impossible- he reined him in and made him more responsible. Fewer interceptions, and more success. He then took Rodgers, who had a lot of raw talent but was egotistical and not ready for the NFL. He worked with him, helping create the player we see today.I'm not suggesting he could have done this with anyone. What I am saying is that he helped AR maximize his potential. Could another coach have done that? Good question. And impossible to answer. We know MM did it. Whether someone else cold have is speculation.

The thing is, these guys are similar to Holmgren and Favre. Holmgren hooked his wagon to Favre becoming a great QB. Then he helped him develop his natural talent. MM did the same thing with AR. Recall what happened when Holmgren moved on. Under Sherman, Favre became a maverick, a flinger, a guy who threw 29 interceptions in one year. MM came in, he cut down on his intereceptions. Could another coach done that? We know MM did it. Whether another coach could have done the same thing is speculation.

By the way, thanks for agreeing that "its hard to have sustained success without a franchise QB." Because its crucial, unless you have a stifling defense, and a really good RB to take up the slack. In that case, the QB can just be adequate, a "game manager". But for sustained success? Especially making the playoffs eight years in a row, and advancing to the championship game several times, and winning a SB? For that, you need a franchise QB and coach combo that complement each other. Kind of like Brady and Belichick. Or Carroll and Wilson. Or even AR and MM.

Now, there is one final thing to consider. Is Rodgers happy with MM as coach? There were times a few seasons ago when the relationship seemed a bit rocky. But I haven't seen or heard anything the last few years to suggest any friction between the two. So, to me, its very simple. If AR is  OK with MM, then keep him. If AR feels he can't play for him, then get another coach. Because its easier to find a decent HC than it is to find a franchise/HOF QB.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 12:47:30 PM by ricky »
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Offline Shinesman

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Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2017, 09:21:44 PM »
Ricky I really think you are trying too hard to deny what's right in front of you. Another coach with multiple years of playoff appearance and success with Jack squat at QB? Rex Ryan, didn't he have to deal with Pennington AND Sanchez among other subpar quarterbacks? Making the playoffs and even the AFC title game a couple times?
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Online ricky

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Re: How good a coach is MM really?
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2017, 06:15:46 AM »
Ricky I really think you are trying too hard to deny what's right in front of you. Another coach with multiple years of playoff appearance and success with Jack squat at QB? Rex Ryan, didn't he have to deal with Pennington AND Sanchez among other subpar quarterbacks? Making the playoffs and even the AFC title game a couple times?

Fair enough. Remember, I asked for "sustained success". Ryan had two winning seasons with the Jets. Two championship game appearances, I believe. Then, the team got worse and worse. Is it because they didn't have a franchise QB? That is what the overwhelming evidence would suggest. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/RyanRe0.htm

Anyway, if it wasn't for Bradichick and their unparalleled success in their 16 year collaboration. Could one have done it without the other? Is Belichick a great coach because he has Brady? Would Brady be as successful with another coach? Who knows?
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