May 24, 2018, 10:30:54 PM

Author Topic: Packers Big Board W.A.G.  (Read 1491 times)

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Offline dannobanano

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Re: Packers Big Board W.A.G.
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2018, 12:16:29 PM »
I think Madison has a chance to prove to the Packers he can play RT as well.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/04/29/jmon-moore-cole-madison-are-the-sneaky-good-picks-of-packers-draft/

Quote
Five picks after taking Moore, the Packers might have found the long-term answer at right guard or right tackle.

Director of college scouting Jon-Eric Sullivan said he’s likely headed for guard, but Madison has the length and foot quickness to surprise people on the edge. He played a lot of games in a pass-heavy offense and was one of the best pass-blocking right tackles in college football the last three years.

According to Pro Football Focus, Madison allowed 12 sacks and only 74 total pressures over 3,012 total snaps and almost 2,300 pass-blocking snaps from 2015-17. That shouldn’t be overlooked.

A lot of people thought David Bakhtiari would need to add weight and slide inside to guard. He’s since become one of the best left tackles in football. I’m not saying Madison will follow that path, but to rule him out as a future starting right tackle feels awfully premature.

I think Madison’s ability to move his feet gives him a chance of holding up on the edge. He isn’t a great athlete overall, and he’s built differently than Bakhtiari, but he can mirror the rusher and move his feet and recover. With a little better technique overall, he could be a pro-caliber pass blocker for the right side.

And even if it doesn’t work out at right tackle, that size and quickness will play well on the inside. Interior blockers in the Packers scheme need to move their feet and execute tough reach blocks and pulls. I think Madison has that ability, even if he’s a projection on the inside. He looks and plays a little bit like Josh Sitton coming out of UCF. That’s a big comp, but I think we can trust Packers offensive line coach James Campen, who is a master of turning misfit offensive tackles into effective interior linemen, to maximize what Madison can do inside.

Online craig

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Re: Packers Big Board W.A.G.
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2018, 12:52:53 PM »
I am not claiming Madison is a bad pick, I am fully behind him and the Packers on the pick. Hope he wins the starting RG spot from day one because he is just soo much better than everyone else. In digging into the guy the last couple of days, the first player that came to mind was Mark Tauscher. Both right tackles in college who didn't tests the greatest, but just got the job done down after down. Both with a HS basketball background also. Like everyone of them, it will be fun to watch and see how he grows and fits in.

Missed by small increments: 
Height         Between 6'3" and 6'6"      6'5"
Weight         under 325lbs               313lbs
40 Time        < 5.30s                    5.34s
Short Shuttle  < 4.85s                    4.88s
3 Cone         < 7.85s                    7.86s
Vertical       at least 25"               28.5"
Bench          at least 23                26

Being on the taller/heavier end of their range, perhaps less bad to be .01s over on 3-cone, .03s over on shuttle, and .04s over on 40 than if a guy was Spriggs weight when he was drafted, for example. 

In terms of performance, not sure how useful it is, but PFF Draft ✔ @PFF_College gave Madison the second highest performance score for any tackles (right or left) in the draft, based on only 22 pressures allowed in 776 pass-blocking snaps.  I'd kinda assume the Pac10 tends to have some fairly talented, athletic pass-rushers throughout the league, so to allow that few pressures versus relatively high-end opposition suggests he's a fairly skilled pass-blocker. 



Offline RT

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Re: Packers Big Board W.A.G.
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2018, 02:20:16 PM »
I am not claiming Madison is a bad pick, I am fully behind him and the Packers on the pick. Hope he wins the starting RG spot from day one because he is just soo much better than everyone else. In digging into the guy the last couple of days, the first player that came to mind was Mark Tauscher. Both right tackles in college who didn't tests the greatest, but just got the job done down after down. Both with a HS basketball background also. Like everyone of them, it will be fun to watch and see how he grows and fits in.

Missed by small increments: 
Height         Between 6'3" and 6'6"      6'5"
Weight         under 325lbs               313lbs
40 Time        < 5.30s                    5.34s
Short Shuttle  < 4.85s                    4.88s
3 Cone         < 7.85s                    7.86s
Vertical       at least 25"               28.5"
Bench          at least 23                26

Being on the taller/heavier end of their range, perhaps less bad to be .01s over on 3-cone, .03s over on shuttle, and .04s over on 40 than if a guy was Spriggs weight when he was drafted, for example. 

In terms of performance, not sure how useful it is, but PFF Draft ✔ @PFF_College gave Madison the second highest performance score for any tackles (right or left) in the draft, based on only 22 pressures allowed in 776 pass-blocking snaps.  I'd kinda assume the Pac10 tends to have some fairly talented, athletic pass-rushers throughout the league, so to allow that few pressures versus relatively high-end opposition suggests he's a fairly skilled pass-blocker.

Not sure where you got your benchmarks, but they are not correct. The under 325lbs weight thing is not a thing, it may be a coincidence, but is not a measurable standard. The 40 isn't even used for OLinemen by the Packers in weeding out prospects, again it may be a coincidence but not a benchmark. The 40 is used on most positions, just not OL.

The PFF numbers are of importance (IMO) and that is something in his corner for sure.

The Packers recent (2018-2013) OL draft choices Relative Athletic Scores,
Cole Madison - 4.59
Kofi Amichia - 9.79
Jason Spriggs - 9.78
Kyle Murphy - Incomplete
Lucas Patrick (UDFA) - 9.28
Corey Linsley - 9.28
David Bakhtiari - 5.33
J.C. Tretter - 9.64

I did not know the results of this exercise before I started it, but maybe Bakhtiari's average athleticism plays to Madison's possible success.

Again I am 100% in their corner, supporting him and hoping great success in his future.
 

     

Offline RT

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Re: Packers Big Board W.A.G.
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2018, 01:04:52 PM »
I am not claiming Madison is a bad pick, I am fully behind him and the Packers on the pick. Hope he wins the starting RG spot from day one because he is just soo much better than everyone else. In digging into the guy the last couple of days, the first player that came to mind was Mark Tauscher. Both right tackles in college who didn't tests the greatest, but just got the job done down after down. Both with a HS basketball background also. Like everyone of them, it will be fun to watch and see how he grows and fits in.

Missed by small increments: 
Height         Between 6'3" and 6'6"      6'5"
Weight         under 325lbs               313lbs
40 Time        < 5.30s                    5.34s
Short Shuttle  < 4.85s                    4.88s
3 Cone         < 7.85s                    7.86s
Vertical       at least 25"               28.5"
Bench          at least 23                26

Being on the taller/heavier end of their range, perhaps less bad to be .01s over on 3-cone, .03s over on shuttle, and .04s over on 40 than if a guy was Spriggs weight when he was drafted, for example. 

In terms of performance, not sure how useful it is, but PFF Draft ✔ @PFF_College gave Madison the second highest performance score for any tackles (right or left) in the draft, based on only 22 pressures allowed in 776 pass-blocking snaps.  I'd kinda assume the Pac10 tends to have some fairly talented, athletic pass-rushers throughout the league, so to allow that few pressures versus relatively high-end opposition suggests he's a fairly skilled pass-blocker.

I was just reading this article and thought you may find it of interest, craig.

https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2018/4/25/17279466/packers-2018-ol-draft-board-projection-this-years-offensive-line-group-has-layers

Online craig

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Re: Packers Big Board W.A.G.
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2018, 01:25:19 PM »
....Not sure where you got your benchmarks, but they are not correct. The under 325lbs weight thing is not a thing, it may be a coincidence, but is not a measurable standard. The 40 isn't even used for OLinemen by the Packers in weeding out prospects, again it may be a coincidence but not a benchmark. The 40 is used on most positions, just not OL.

The PFF numbers are of importance (IMO) and that is something in his corner for sure.

The Packers recent (2018-2013) OL draft choices Relative Athletic Scores,
Cole Madison - 4.59
Kofi Amichia - 9.79
Jason Spriggs - 9.78
Kyle Murphy - Incomplete
Lucas Patrick (UDFA) - 9.28
Corey Linsley - 9.28
David Bakhtiari - 5.33
J.C. Tretter - 9.64

I did not know the results of this exercise before I started it, but maybe Bakhtiari's average athleticism plays to Madison's possible success...

Thanks, RT.  I copied that from a different Packers board. 

I wonder if a Relative Athletics Scores system that rates Bakhti as bottom-of-the-barrel relative to Amichia, Spriggs, and Patrick is of limited use?  If you've got the quickness to be one of the best left tackles in the league, I wonder if that doesn't mean something in the tool isn't relevant to what the job really entails?  And if Amichia is conversely a top-tier athlete, but a crummy lineman, again it makes me wonder whether what RES is measuring is relevant to what actually makes one o-lineman a success and another a failure? 

But those are just questions. 

Offline RT

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Re: Packers Big Board W.A.G.
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2018, 07:08:20 AM »
....Not sure where you got your benchmarks, but they are not correct. The under 325lbs weight thing is not a thing, it may be a coincidence, but is not a measurable standard. The 40 isn't even used for OLinemen by the Packers in weeding out prospects, again it may be a coincidence but not a benchmark. The 40 is used on most positions, just not OL.

The PFF numbers are of importance (IMO) and that is something in his corner for sure.

The Packers recent (2018-2013) OL draft choices Relative Athletic Scores,
Cole Madison - 4.59
Kofi Amichia - 9.79
Jason Spriggs - 9.78
Kyle Murphy - Incomplete
Lucas Patrick (UDFA) - 9.28
Corey Linsley - 9.28
David Bakhtiari - 5.33
J.C. Tretter - 9.64

I did not know the results of this exercise before I started it, but maybe Bakhtiari's average athleticism plays to Madison's possible success...

Thanks, RT.  I copied that from a different Packers board. 

I wonder if a Relative Athletics Scores system that rates Bakhti as bottom-of-the-barrel relative to Amichia, Spriggs, and Patrick is of limited use?  If you've got the quickness to be one of the best left tackles in the league, I wonder if that doesn't mean something in the tool isn't relevant to what the job really entails?  And if Amichia is conversely a top-tier athlete, but a crummy lineman, again it makes me wonder whether what RES is measuring is relevant to what actually makes one o-lineman a success and another a failure? 

But those are just questions.

The RAS system is just one more tool to be used, but probably an outdated tool in the metrics world of professional sports. It is fun for fans because their is almost 20 years of data to research if we so chose. The Packers, like everyother team, have probably developed their own set of metrics specific to each position. The birth of the term 'Ted types'. In using these metrics systems, RAS and SPARQ, with a review of past drafts we can quickly see that they are not the Holy Grail to solving the mystery of who the next generation of great players will be.

If you compare the two, RAS and SPARQ, you will find a large difference in rankings with some players. As a quick example I will use Equanimeous St. Brown. On the RAS system he scores a 9.84 which is 4th best of all WR's in this years draft, elite level. On the SPARQ system he scores a 119.4 which puts him in the 62.6 percentile athleticly of players in this draft and 35th of all WR's. Not nearly as impressive.

Today is a new day and Cole Madison's professional chapters have yet to be written. He is a Packer now and I will pull for him to succeed regardless of what some metrics system says. The Packers invested their time and energy into studying this player and then invested a draft pick in him, that is good enough for me. 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 07:11:18 AM by RT »