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Online The GM

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Re: Packers transactions
« Reply #90 on: June 01, 2018, 02:46:23 PM »
The Lewis signing I can get behind.  We probably overpaid him a bit but he was much needed.  OK with that. 

He's coming to block, Old and slow, perhaps he can sneak out every now and then and grab a pass.  I see him as a slight upgrade over Richard Rodgers, but that type of player.  I'm sure he'll help.   

Offline RT

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Re: Packers transactions
« Reply #91 on: June 01, 2018, 02:51:37 PM »
Marcedes Lewis = Tackle Eligible

Online craig

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Re: Packers transactions
« Reply #92 on: June 01, 2018, 07:43:43 PM »
Right, he's a lineman, not a receiver.  Slower than Richard Rodgers, sure, but Rodgers was a terrible blocker and a pretty good pass-catcher. 

Online craig

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Re: Packers transactions
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2018, 12:22:27 PM »
..New Packers OT Byron Bell's contract: $500,000 signing bonus.....Cap charge of $1.712M

Those numbers suggest he is going to be on the roster come opening day, they don't handout 500k signing bonuses to camp bodies. That makes just short of 4M paid out this week to very marginal players. Keep foolishly paying marginal players that are just looking to collect on
one more contract
before they ride off into the sunset and in time it will cost them the ability to sign a core player to a second contract.

That's a helpful point.  As you phrase it, "foolishly" is your key word.  You may well be right. 

As a Packers fan I'm desperately hoping that somehow Gute isn't a fool, and MM isn't a fool.  Your premise may well be correct, and if both top decision-makers are fools, it doesn't make me feel comfortable about the Packers future.  Somehow we've GOT to have competent decision-makers and talent evaluators running the show. 

I'm guessing that Gute, wisely or dumbly, probably disagrees with you on three points:
1.  Foolish.  Obviously he doesn't assume it's dumb and foolish. 

2.  Motivation/attitude.  You pejoratively assume "just looking to collect on one more contract."  I don't know either player, so you may be right, beats me.  But I'd imagine there are at least some 29-year-old guys who love football, love to win, and might be all-out team guys and total professionals with great motivations, even if they lack $20M talent?  :)  Some other reports or posts have suggested that Lewis is actually a really positive team-chemistry guy.  Gute has talked some about "how guys are wired" and stuff like that, so hypothetically he has some care about attitude and stuff.  Perhaps that only applies to rookies, beats me.  But it's possible that Gute has done research on the players and thinks both will be hard-working guys who give everything they've got?  (Hypothetically).  Sometimes it does, but that isn't always gone by the time a man turns 29....

3.  "Marginal".  That's another pejorative that implies insignificant.  Obviously these cats aren't getting paid like stars, so they won't be huge game-changers.  I'm imagining Gute might perhaps suggest that there is value in margin?  Many games and many Super Bowls are won or lost by very small margins.  Marginal improvement in drive blocking can differentiate a completed first down and falling short and punting, a change of possession.  Marginal improvement in pass protection can give Aaron extra hundredths or  tenths of seconds to see a receiver break open, or to have footwork space to make a good play versus a misfire.  I think we sometimes underestimate the significance of variations in  quality in below-average players.  The differences between a 45th percentile guy, a 30th percentile guy, and a 15th percentile guy can be significant. 

Obviously Gute evaluated that these players were worth the money.  I don't really argue your presumption that he's a fool to think so, as you say!  I'm just suggesting that it's at least hypothetically possible that he isn't, and these are well-considered, reasonable signings. 

One other note is that while their salaries combine for ~$4M, it's not exactly costing you quite $4M towards future 2nd-contract.   Guys like Fackrell are ~$0.8, so even if you commit those two roster spots to rookie-minimum_UDFA/7th-round contracts, those two spots will still cost ~$1M mimimum.  So the cost differential of a Bell, at $1.7, isn't really $1.7; it's actually $1.7 minus the contract you'd pay otherwise. 

I'm just trying to be apologist for Gute and trying to understand what his thinking is when he makes the moves. 

I'd also note that he does have access to medical stuff that I don't.  Perhaps his news on Spriggs isn't that super positive, that he'll be 100% strong and ready by camp time?  Inside info that management sometimes has may perhaps appropriately inform a decision that otherwise seems foolish to us? 

Offline RT

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Re: Packers transactions
« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2018, 02:16:28 PM »
One foolish act does not make an individual a fool. For the mostpart I think Gute has done a quality job.

You bring up some interesting points, motivation is a case by case judgement call. A marginally better player by percentile increase in theory should make a difference, but none of them come with a percentile stamp on them and they are ever changing. If marginal veteran A is a 45 percentile player at season beginning and the same at season end and rookie UDFA (Sam Shields) is a 15 percentile player at season beginning and a 75 percentile player at seasons end, which is the better route to take? The young players salary is 1/4 of that of the marginal vet, in most cases more motivated and has a chance to continue to ascend for years to come. The problem is that the coaching staff has to actually do their job and get these young players coached up. I do believe that is the root of some of this, I think MM is gotten tired of working that hard and doesn't feel a need to worry about developing players with this probably his last season.

The prisoner of the moment is all giddy about the signings of marginal players, but the reality is their is a price to pay for signing such players if this becomes their new business model. Each one of these players cost an additional 1-1.5M taxing on the future salary cap. Is it worth signing 8 to 10 of these players over a 2 to 3 year period and because of that be unable to sign a core player (Kenny Clark) to a second contract? The laws of physics apply here, for every action, there is an opposite reaction.

   

Offline OneTwoSixFive

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Re: Packers transactions
« Reply #95 on: June 02, 2018, 03:36:10 PM »

The prisoner of the moment is all giddy about the signings of marginal players, but the reality is their is a price to pay for signing such players if this becomes their new business model. Each one of these players cost an additional 1-1.5M taxing on the future salary cap. Is it worth signing 8 to 10 of these players over a 2 to 3 year period and because of that be unable to sign a core player (Kenny Clark) to a second contract? The laws of physics apply here, for every action, there is an opposite reaction.


Don't forget that if these players were not signed, the Packers would still have to pay SOMEBODY to play there. The bottom line (with the signings) is production versus price-point. The adjudication of the wisdom or foolishness of current moves, lies in the future. To call these actions foolish before a snap has been played is, well, foolish.
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Online ricky

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Re: Packers transactions
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2018, 04:45:33 PM »
Are the Packers overstocked with serviceable offensive linemen? Does McCray have the best shot at RG? Will Bulaga make it out of TC as the right tackle? Or will he be given an ultimatum: take a pay cut or be cut? This camp may be the most eompetetive in some years.

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/offensive-lines-depth-and-versatility-now-a-strengh-552
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Online craig

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Re: Packers transactions
« Reply #97 on: June 03, 2018, 07:05:52 PM »
..New Packers OT Byron Bell's contract: $500,000 signing bonus.....Cap charge of $1.712M

Those numbers suggest he is going to be on the roster come opening day, they don't handout 500k signing bonuses to camp bodies. That makes just short of 4M paid out this week to very marginal players. Keep foolishly paying marginal players that are just looking to collect on
one more contract
before they ride off into the sunset and in time it will cost them the ability to sign a core player to a second contract.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/sports/football/professional/once-reliant-on-youngsters-new-approach-gives-packers-experienced-options/article_5efd063d-29b2-5ecf-88ee-9c874819de42.html

MM clearly doesn't view Bell and Lewis as guys that are just looking to collect on one more contract. 
"“And let’s not forget about the way these men fit into the locker room, their reputations, what they bring. That’s all part of it. Because you’re always focused on the chemistry and the culture of your locker room, and it’s just an opportunity to improve. I think we clearly have done that this week.”

Article:  "For his part, Lewis came on his visit to Green Bay last week but did not intend to sign with the Packers. After 12 years with the Jacksonville Jaguars and with other teams having expressed an interest in him...."  (It then goes on to say that after spending time with Aaron and Graham, he decided he didn't want to do any more visits and just wanted to sign with Packers.  "Once I saw Aaron and Jimmy, it was a no-brainer after that.”")

Bell clearly doesn't sound like he's all about the money. 
“(The Packers) called me Sunday and I knew I wanted to sign. I called my agent and said, ‘Look, I’m not really materialistic. I just want to win and play football. Whatever the money is, I really don’t care,’” Bell said. “Before I even signed the deal here, I had to cut my mama’s grass. They were giving me a hard time upstairs, but that’s just life. I don’t need the fancy things. I’ve got a used truck. I just want to work. That’s just me. That’s how I was always raised.”

I'm not saying either guy is going to be any good, or that both will make the team.  And I'm not saying down the road we might now wish we had that $3M back; it might not prove to be an effective $3M outlay.  Just that management views these guys as locker-room assets, and that these don't sound like guys "just looking to collect on one more contract". 

Offline RT

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Re: Packers transactions
« Reply #98 on: June 04, 2018, 06:15:43 AM »
I hope they work out to be part of a Super Bowl winning team, craig.

Philosophically I just don't agree with the business model of signing those types of players over a period of time. Their is little to no upside in such additions. People are claiming that this year is all together different now with Gute and this new era has given hope to those that had misguided feelings of hopelessness because of last season. But this years group of FA signings is very similar to last years group of FA signings.

Last year they signed Martellus Bennett (looking for one more payday), Ricky Jean Francois (career marginal player), Lance Kendricks ( career marginal player), Davon House (career marginal player) and Jahri Evans (washed up former excellent player). The Packers would of been better off if they hadn't signed any of those players. Bennett just cost a bunch in dead money, RJF was a waste of signing bonus money, ditto for Kendricks who only seems interested in smoking weed, House is physically brokedown and the Evans signing only slowed the development of McCray and Patrick.

This years group of names can easily be substituded in for last years and the descriptions remain close to the same. The one thing that is certain with this year and last is that these 2 years of signing has put a good dent in the salary cap moving forward. Combine that with the Rodgers deal and in time these signings of marginal and/or worn out players will cost them a player(s) that they really do not want to lose. 

Hopefully they win a Super Bowl this coming season and all is great, but miss this year and they continue to handcuff themselves a little more each year in the twilight of their QB's career. They took a hugh gamble on Jimmy Graham, his cap number for next season is 12,666,666.00 and to cut him would bring 7,333,334.00 in dead cap money to the books. Those are big numbers for a bad-legged, 30 something TE who averaged 9 YAC last season.

Whoever makes the team and is on the field to start the season, I will be 100% behind in their quest to win the ultimate goal. Until then the rest is just good debate.   

Offline dannobanano

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Re: Packers transactions
« Reply #99 on: June 05, 2018, 11:56:26 AM »
I hope they work out to be part of a Super Bowl winning team, craig.

Philosophically I just don't agree with the business model of signing those types of players over a period of time. Their is little to no upside in such additions. People are claiming that this year is all together different now with Gute and this new era has given hope to those that had misguided feelings of hopelessness because of last season. But this years group of FA signings is very similar to last years group of FA signings.

Last year they signed Martellus Bennett (looking for one more payday), Ricky Jean Francois (career marginal player), Lance Kendricks ( career marginal player), Davon House (career marginal player) and Jahri Evans (washed up former excellent player). The Packers would of been better off if they hadn't signed any of those players. Bennett just cost a bunch in dead money, RJF was a waste of signing bonus money, ditto for Kendricks who only seems interested in smoking weed, House is physically brokedown and the Evans signing only slowed the development of McCray and Patrick.

This years group of names can easily be substituded in for last years and the descriptions remain close to the same. The one thing that is certain with this year and last is that these 2 years of signing has put a good dent in the salary cap moving forward. Combine that with the Rodgers deal and in time these signings of marginal and/or worn out players will cost them a player(s) that they really do not want to lose. 

Hopefully they win a Super Bowl this coming season and all is great, but miss this year and they continue to handcuff themselves a little more each year in the twilight of their QB's career. They took a hugh gamble on Jimmy Graham, his cap number for next season is 12,666,666.00 and to cut him would bring 7,333,334.00 in dead cap money to the books. Those are big numbers for a bad-legged, 30 something TE who averaged 9 YAC last season.

Whoever makes the team and is on the field to start the season, I will be 100% behind in their quest to win the ultimate goal. Until then the rest is just good debate.

I understand the premise of your post RT, and while there is logic in that premise, I don't necessarily think what has transpired (with signing marginal UFA's) over the last couple of years represents a potential long term trend that could become problematic at some time.

One of the shortcomings to Ted's D&D philosophy was that he had to be right on nearly every draft pick to continue to put a contender on the field each season. That philosphy, in and of itself, carries an inherent risk (just like signing FA's) if the players that are drafted don't pan out. There has been a steady drum beat from fans, media, and even opinion from other NFL personnel people that Ted's blueprint was incomplete because he was hardly ever using free agency to fill in gaps that the draft had failed to do. Not that he needed to make splash signings of big name players, but shoring up weak spots with 2nd tier players and modest contracts. I believe this is what Ted was attempting to do last year, and also what Gute has implemented this year.

Let's look at the players you listed above.

Martellus Bennett: Was signed because Jared Cook grew an ego after his late season good play and "the catch" that helped GB win against DAL. Cook thought he had leverage to hold the Packers hostage for a big contract extension. Signing Bennett, at the time, looked like a win-win for GB. He was coming off a Super Bowl victory with NE. He had become the go-to TE for Brady after Gronk went down on IR. While not as fast as Cook, he was viewed as (and his resume' confirmed) more of a complete TE than Cook. Despite his "big personality" he was viewed as an upgrade over Cook. Did anyone ever imagine he would be a man with "stone hands" and would totally self destruct half way through the season? I think very few people saw that coming. I admit, I did not.

Ricky Jean Francois: A March SFA insurance signing of a veteran DL to a position group that did not count against future comp picks. Despite him not being a great fit as a DL in a 3-4 defense, he brought veteran experience to an otherwise very young DL. When Clark and Lowry showed that they had taken the "2nd year jump" and Dial became available, the Packers released him as they had better options............only to sign him back 9 days later when injuries struck. I admit, he was a "mixed results" signing, but not a bad signing.

Lance Kendricks: With signing Bennett, then Kendricks, the Packers thought they had seriously upgraded the TE position since Rick Rodgers was the only TE of any expereince on the roster at that time. I give him an "incomplete" grade at the moment. Last year was kind of a lost year for several players on offense due to the loss of Aaron. This year he will be the #3 TE, but my guess is that he will have better numbers than he did last year. Look for the Packers to employ a "13" package in the red zone frequently this year. At the time of his signing, he filled that nitch of "2nd tier player, modest contract" free agent signing.

Davon House: JMHO, but I view him as a little better than marginal player. He wasn't a core starter when he left in FA, but he was more than a bottom of the roster player. The fact that MN, CHI, PHI, SEA, JAX, and OAK were all courting him in FA tells me he's a little more than marginal. In his first year (2015) at JAX he had 23 PDF's-4 INT's-and 60 tackles. He fell out of favor in JAX because they switched DC's and went from a man-press coverage to a zone coverage. House has always been at his best in man-press. Last year he played at less than 100% for the vast majority of the season. His cap number for last year and this year were/are reasonable given his experience and the position.

Jahri Evans: A veteran signing at a position of need, and a reasonable contract. The Packers lost both Lang and Tretter in FA and had little/nothing already on the roster since Patrick was seriously unproven at that point and McCray had just been signed from the Arena Football League. Ted would have likely had to draft a Guard in the 1st round if he was to have any hope of finding a plug-play person at OG. But there was a bigger need for defensive players, as shown by the drafting of Kevin King at #33. Evans was steady, but not spectacular. His addition to the roster accomplished exactly what it was intended to accomplish. The Packers may have thought they wouldn't lose both Lang and Tretter, but they did. Evans became plan-B, and now the Packers have options at OG in McCray, Madison, Patrick, and Bell.

Jimmy Graham: Like any Day-1 free agent signing, this carries with it an amount of risk. I do view his roster presence as more than just a 1 year visit, so I'm confused by your pointing at his year 2 cap charge. If he stays healthy, I view his signing as more along the lines of a Julius Peppers signing, and he's a Packer for 3 years. He brings way more to the table than either Cook or Bennett, and while he did not come cheap, the upside of this signing makes me feel way better than the initial Cook signing and the Bennett signing. And especially so after the releasing of Jordy Nelson. Gute knew they needed a significant go-to target in the passing game.

While I'm less excited with the Bell signing, I feel very good about the Lewis signing. Lewis will not have a major impact on the passing game between-the-20's. But he will have an impact on the running game, and will have a significant impact on the red zone offense as he will give GB a 4th (and imposing size-wise) receiving threat.

Finally, they may have overpaid a little bit for Tramon Williams this year, but with his experience in Pettine's defense and the way he played last year in AZ, I guess they felt he was worth the investment.

Looking at Rodgers pending extension and the 2019 UFA's the Packers have, I don't have a lot of concerns. Beyond extending Rodgers the 2019 UFA's are..........Matthews, Cobb, HHCD, Wilkerson, Kendricks, House, Rollins, Montgomery, Ryan, Hundley, Ripkowski, and Goodsen. Out of that group, the only "must keep" players..........IMO..........are Wilkerson and HHCD..........and then ONLY if they play at a very high level in 2018.


Offline RT

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Re: Packers transactions
« Reply #100 on: June 06, 2018, 03:21:33 PM »
Rob Demovsky

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The Packers released WR Colby Pearson. He had been out with a hamstring injury. He finished last season on the practice squad.

Pearson was probably 11th out of 11 on the depth chart, more than likely was just a camp body.

This was the cue.

Wait for it.........

Wait for it........

Does this mean they are signing Dez Bryant?  ::)

Offline dannobanano

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Re: Packers transactions
« Reply #101 on: June 07, 2018, 03:50:39 AM »
Rob Demovsky

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The Packers released WR Colby Pearson. He had been out with a hamstring injury. He finished last season on the practice squad.

Pearson was probably 11th out of 11 on the depth chart, more than likely was just a camp body.

This was the cue.

Wait for it.........

Wait for it........

Does this mean they are signing Dez Bryant?  ::)




 ;D ;D ;D

Offline Hands

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Re: Packers transactions
« Reply #102 on: June 07, 2018, 06:35:34 AM »
Green Bay had at least two positions that needed attention on the offense: OT, and TE. So Gutsey gets a vet for each position. Now people are saying they are tooooo expensive and not very good. Maybe, but they are better than what was on the roster and they are healthy which can't be said for the OTs.
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Online ricky

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Re: Packers transactions
« Reply #103 on: June 07, 2018, 10:59:56 AM »
Does this mean they are signing Dez Bryant?  ::)

The Packers are signing Bryant? My dreams have come true!  ::)
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Offline RT

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Re: Packers transactions
« Reply #104 on: June 08, 2018, 01:51:38 PM »
Green Bay had at least two positions that needed attention on the offense: OT, and TE. So Gutsey gets a vet for each position. Now people are saying they are tooooo expensive and not very good. Maybe, but they are better than what was on the roster and they are healthy which can't be said for the OTs.

I can only assume this is in response to my post with it being the only one that has a nay vote about the signings. If that is the case, you have completely missed the point.