November 21, 2018, 12:17:12 PM

Author Topic: OTA notes  (Read 6684 times)

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Offline Twain

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Re: OTA notes
« Reply #90 on: June 16, 2018, 09:01:10 AM »
Posted a similar question earlier. Who sets the final roster?

That's a key question.  I don't think we know.  Who has the authority when Gute and MM disagree- I doubt Murphy is the decision maker on that one, but who knows?
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Offline craig

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Re: OTA notes
« Reply #91 on: June 16, 2018, 11:48:21 AM »
....The chain of command structure is a tried and proven method of operations and is the best way to ensure accountability at each level. Allows for people to 'just do their damn job'.

This matrix type structure (a hybrid of divisional and functional structures) that Murphy has setup is flawed because it is a breeding grounds for internal power struggles. Most areas of the team now will have a dual management - coach or GM whats to sign player X, but Director of football operations says the contract demands are too high. Internal power struggle. Cutdown comes and coach wants to keep player X because he can help on a few plays right now and GM wants to keep player Y because he shows traits of being a very good player a year or two down the line. Internal power struggle. I could go on with these examples all day long, but the point is that it is an unneeded waste of time and mental energy in every department.

People that don't work in this type of environment or never have will think that is not a big deal, but it is a big deal. They are in a very competitive business and they are very competitive people who think they are alway right and feel the need to always win. They are dominate A personalities, no one there is saying 'you can have the last donut', they are armwrestling for it. In everyone of these internal power struggles there will be a winner and a loser and by nature of the beast the loser is going to expend even more time and energy to his point of view the next time their is a differing of opinions. All this is counterproductive and a waste of time that should be put to use in the common goal of trying to win a SB.   

A matrix structure will never stand the test of time in that environment because of the tension caused for the internal power struggles will in time erode away at the working relationships of the parties involved.

Thanks, RT, that was really well expressed. 
It's also a really gloomy projection.  In your landscape, we've got:
1.   Gute who's powerless;
2.  MM who's both dumb and stubborn; and
3.  Murphy who must also be dumb, both in selecting a dumb organizational structure that's doomed to fail, and in seemingly shifting more power to the dumb/short-sited coach. 

Seems like a really bleak synopsis!  And unfortunately I really respect your insights.  (Unfortunate, because it seems so bleak.) 

The hopeful part of me hopes that somehow you've seeing it more gloomy than it needs to be.  How might it be not quite that bad?
1.  Is Murphy really so dumb as to choose such a rotten structure? 

2.  Might there not still be some very clear chain-of-command, or elements thereof? 
*For example, might the traditional chain-of-command perhaps remain intact, other than the hiring/firing of head coach? 
*Perhaps Gute has the same complete authority over personnel and roster that TT and Wolf always had, and MM and Gute both know that? 
*Perhaps MM has the same complete authority over assistant coaches, over game strategy, and over roster usage that he's always had? 
*And perhaps Ball is answerable to Gute in the same way he always has been?  Make recommendations, provide pros-and-cons, do all the analysis, but ultimately it's Gute who decides whether it's worth it to sign a Graham, or to not retain Jordy, or to extend Adams and Linsley, or to resign HaHa or Montgomery at the contracts Balls tells him the agents might accept? 

I guess I'm wondering whether there isn't still enough definition and differentiation of responsibility that perhaps it still "Allows for people to 'just do their damn job'."????

3.  Are there perhaps successful examples of matrix-type structures in sports?  Baseball and football have their nuanced distinctions.  But I'm a big Cubs fan, and I think Theo Epstein's Cubs probably tend towards matrix structure and have done so in a successful way?   President Epstein is a huge competitive personality; so is Manager Maddon; GM Hoyer; draft+scouting director McLeod; and many more VERY self-confident voices and thinkers in that team.  So I think there are examples of creative successful teams using variant organizational structures.  That said, within the Cubs matrix there is certainly well-defined respect for different domains.  Theo and Hoyer are certainly at the table in discussing draft picks, but ultimately they know that McLeod makes draft decisions, that's his domain.  Maddon speaks into what he wants, but ultimately it's Hoyer and Theo who make the final decisions on free agency, contracts, and trades.  I suspect that while Hoyer is GM, that in the organization it's probably understood that Theo has the final say on big decisions.  Hoyer and their analytics certainly talk to the manager, but ultimately he does what he wants to do.  Distinct silos have distinct bosses. 

I'm just hoping for the best, I know, and hoping that the Packers aren't set up in a doomed-to-fail structure with a bunch of dumb losers competing to make bad decisions!  If that's the reality, the future could be pretty dismal. 

Offline craig

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Re: OTA notes
« Reply #92 on: June 16, 2018, 12:40:22 PM »
More rambling:  To spin things in the negative, the MM/Gute situation is a potentially a classic conflict of Nowacrat vs Buildican priorities,

The veteran coach riding the aging star QB:  potential to be totally Nowacrat.  Wants to do everything possible to win now, while Rodgers still gives him the chance, and while he's still the coach. 

vs the young GM: potential to be strongly Buildican.  Wants to build his own long-term success, build up young talent that will last, perhaps supporting a durable legacy that might outlast both Rodgers and MM. 

The movie drama could certainly portray a simplistic and powerful conflict of interest, pulling at cross purposes at every decision big and small. 

I'd like to think there could be considerably more nuance, and sincere devotion to common mutual interest.  Perhaps Nowacrat and Buildican do NOT need to be at each other's throats and in constant conflict? 
*Perhaps Gute understand that each season is sacred; that trying to win championships while Aaron is still a weapon is an obvious opportunity and responsibility; so perhaps he's got plenty of competitive Nowacrat burning. 
*Perhaps MM wants to win now of course, but has no intention of conceding future success; he totally wants to both compete and build, fully understanding it's a young-man's game; he has no intention of quitting as soon as Rodgers can't compete; and he as plenty of Buildican passion to build winning that will last into the future; and that he wants to build players and a system that will win beyond Rodgers, and will support a personal legacy as more than just a coach who lucked into a GOAT QB and only tagged along with 12's career and no further. 

So I'm hoping that long-term Buidlican good is NOT being unduly sacrificed for short-term Nowacrat impulses. 

I would suggest that trading for a next-year-first-rounder was a clear Buildican move, reflecting that irresponsible Nowacrat impulses are not running totally wild.   

Offline craig

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Re: OTA notes
« Reply #93 on: June 16, 2018, 02:03:08 PM »
...
Not an age thing at all craig. It is a motivation thing or in this case a lack of motivation thing. When signing FA's, they should arrive with the motivation ....

Not to belabor this too much further!  :) 

But, on what basis have you already concluded that Bell and Lewis lack motivation?  (Lewis seems to be ticked that Jacksonville let him go, so if the "prove them wrong" motivation is what's needed, maybe he DOES have that?)

Do you have inside scoop on Kendrick?  Or is your conclusion that his motives were "stealing" based on the combination of getting arrested for smoking pot, combined with his totally blah and non-impactful play on the field?  )It wouldn't at all surprise me if he was a slacker, and lacked motivation.  But I don't live in Green Bay or have anybody in-the-know telling me inside scoop on guys effort.)   I know Biegel had like totally zero noticeable impact when he played; but NOBODY translates that into meaning he's a slacker or lacking in motivation.  So, with Kendrick's sub-average play, I'm not sure whether to attribute that to lack of motivation (unlike Biegle) or lack of talent-skill (like last year's version of Biegel.) 

As for Kendrick, a point is that *IF* he's a lazy slacker, MM should know that now, even if he didn't last year.  You know more after you've had a guy around for a while, which can then better inform subsequent decisions. 

Online ricky

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Re: OTA notes
« Reply #94 on: June 16, 2018, 05:42:26 PM »
Posted a similar question earlier. Who sets the final roster?

That's a key question.  I don't think we know.  Who has the authority when Gute and MM disagree- I doubt Murphy is the decision maker on that one, but who knows?

I sent a question to Packers.com Inbox asking about who would set the final roster. Stay tuned.
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Offline OneTwoSixFive

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Re: OTA notes
« Reply #95 on: June 17, 2018, 01:55:14 AM »
A question I have been interested in for years, ricky and Twain (and I have posted questions myself). I never got a proper answer.

With the lack of expert information, I came up with this.

Gute has final say on drafting, free agents etc (but not without plenty of communication with the coaches). He sets the financial ceiling for any veteran player acquisition - and Ball works within that. Ball also handles plenty of the higher level, day to day executive decision stuff, to keep Gute from being overloaded on non-football matters.

Gute has control of the cap and (again with consultation) is the final voice deciding which guys need to be let go for cap-cost vs performance reasons.

Gute also has final say on who is kept at cutdown time, but in practice he makes very few of those decisions each year, just the occasional guy who is let go for performance, financial and age reasons, guys like Nelson, Sitton, Lang, might have qualified if he had been GM then.

McCarthy, taking on board the recommendations of his coordinators, coaches and Gute himself, sets up the roster to his liking.

The key to the whole thing is clear areas of responsibility, coupled with excellent communication; between McCarthy with his 'tree' (coordinators and position coaches), and Gute with his tree (scouts, head of player personnel, cap manager etc) and Murphy with HIS tree (board, financial team, media stuff etc). If Murphy/McCarthy/Gutekunst can all work well, both with each other and within their trees, the only thing left to worry about is their talent level. If they work well together AND each have a high talent level, the organisation is on rock solid foundations.

Murphy's main responsibility is to keep the whole organisation ticking along well, financially, socially and with success on the field.
Gute's main responsibility is the roster and the cap health, now and in the future.
Ball's responsibility is to negotiate the best contract deals he can, within the maximum parameters Gute sets, and to take on plenty of the upper echelon executive work that is not pure football stuff.
McCarthy's responsibility is to deliver a successful product on the field and ensure the optimum levels of teaching/maintaining/broadening players abilities and performance. Part of that responsibility is also to speak to the press regularly, most particularly during the season.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 01:57:00 AM by OneTwoSixFive »
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Online ricky

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Re: OTA notes
« Reply #96 on: June 17, 2018, 06:17:14 AM »
OneTwoSixFive, so, Gutekunst has final say over the roster? With input from MM and the coaches? So, if the team lacks depth in any area, that is on Gutekunst. And if the players don't perform up to expectations, it would be MM's fault. However, if Gutekunst didn't give MM the best players possible, based on cost rather than performance, this would be Gutekunst's fault? Or MM's and the coaches for not doing their job well enough? And, to borrow a question someone else asked, if MM sees a player as being ready to play now, but Gutekunst sees a player at the same position with more "upside" and less cost, which one gets on the roster?

Now, to be fair and reasonable, no, I'm not asking you to answer these questions. But these are questions the power structure of the team will be facing in a few short months. How it all shakes out will be interesting. TT was well known for keeping younger, cheaper players as backups, and when they were call on to perform, they tended to be significantly less effective than the guys they were replacing. I'm not suggesting that every guy on the roster be starter quality- that is a pipe dream- but there is a built in conflict between "win now" and "we have to plan and save for the future."
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Online The GM

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Re: OTA notes
« Reply #97 on: June 17, 2018, 11:26:32 AM »
The structure can work if everybody knows their roles and what is expected of them.  In Seattle GM John Schneider is in charge of the 90 man roster.   Pete Carroll is in charge of getting it down to 53.  Do they collaborate?  I'm sure they do, and you likely wont hear about any issues between them.  Both know their roles and work together to make it happen.  I'm not sure how the exact roles are applied in Green Bay, but it can work.  I don't think Murphy is going to be involved in any of the selection or cutting process at all.   I think his role in this area is to let these guys do their jobs and distantly observe how these guys interact and then look at the results.    He isn't going to be involved in player X vs player Y.   If there is a personnel related conflict, he'll simply tell them to work it out IMO.

It kinda goes to the old Ron Wolf theory of player selection in predraft meetings.  If you believe your player is better than the guy I want, and you don't convince me,  you have failed as a scout.   

 

 

Offline OneTwoSixFive

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Re: OTA notes
« Reply #98 on: June 17, 2018, 11:34:37 AM »
OneTwoSixFive, so, Gutekunst has final say over the roster? With input from MM and the coaches? So, if the team lacks depth in any area, that is on Gutekunst.

Final say, yes. But in practice he lets MM makes by far the majority of decisions.

And if the players don't perform up to expectations, it would be MM's fault. However, if Gutekunst didn't give MM the best players possible, based on cost rather than performance, this would be Gutekunst's fault? Or MM's and the coaches for not doing their job well enough?

This is the headache. Someone has to make a determination (when failure demands a closer look is taken) whether the HC or GM is at fault. It could be either/both/neither, depending on circumstances (for example: cluster injuries at one position ruining a season = difficult to blame anyone). Also, letting the likes of Lang and Sitton go are complicated calculations, based on projected and past health, performance, attitude, cost, depth behind that individual. Sometimes you can do a good job and still have people unhappy.
And, to borrow a question someone else asked, if MM sees a player as being ready to play now, but Gutekunst sees a player at the same position with more "upside" and less cost, which one gets on the roster?

That's the Nowacrat vs Buildican philosophies, which (as you say) can lead to very different views between GM and HC on a player. Differing viewpoints are why good communication is so important between the coach side and the GM side. Like so many marriages (the better ones), it needs give and take on both sides. It's a delicate dance.

PS. 'The GM's answer (made while I was typing mine) gets to the heart of it nicely.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 11:37:29 AM by OneTwoSixFive »
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Offline craig

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Re: OTA notes
« Reply #99 on: June 20, 2018, 08:29:56 PM »
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/06/18/packers-rookie-receivers-grow-up-quickly-tom-silverstein/699950002/

"St. Brown said he has a photographic memory and so once he puts pen to paper, the play is in his head and he feels confident he’ll remember it."

I wonder how true that actually is, and to what degree it's actually helpful if so? 

Online The GM

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Re: OTA notes
« Reply #100 on: June 21, 2018, 01:06:15 PM »
There no such thing as a photographic memory.  Some people can just remember and absorb a lot of what they saw, but over time that info wont be as detailed as more is absorbed (sometimes much more). I know its a commonly used term, but it really doesnt exist. If he thinks it helps him  remember plays and stuff, good for him.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 01:12:38 PM by The GM »

Offline claymaker

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Re: OTA notes
« Reply #101 on: June 21, 2018, 01:25:12 PM »
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2018/06/18/packers-rookie-receivers-grow-up-quickly-tom-silverstein/699950002/

"St. Brown said he has a photographic memory and so once he puts pen to paper, the play is in his head and he feels confident he’ll remember it."

I wonder how true that actually is, and to what degree it's actually helpful if so?

Went to Notre Dame. Graduated with a 4.0, speaks four languages... he's not lacking in intelligence to say the least.

There no such thing as a photographic memory.  Some people can just remember and absorb a lot of what they saw, but over time that info wont be as detailed as more is absorbed (sometimes much more). I know its a commonly used term, but it really doesnt exist. If he thinks it helps him  remember plays and stuff, good for him.

Everyone has a photographic memory to some extent. Someone with an actual Eidetic Memory has the ability to recall information without having actually learned it or "memorized" it. It is rare in adults but it does happen.

Offline dannobanano

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Re: OTA notes
« Reply #102 on: June 21, 2018, 01:39:24 PM »
I was at a seminar one time where the speaker said that people typically only use about ~10% of their mental capabilities. (Not sure how they measure that?)

Same speaker said that James Campen was someone who was using 25% to 30% of his mind (He evaluated Campen when he was a New Orleans Saint)

The "average Joe" on the street has the capacity to memorize the entire Encyclopedia Britannica and still have used only 80% of our storage capacity. It's just that some are more capable at doing so.

It could be that ESB just maybe exercises a higher % of his minds capacity, and does so naturally.

Offline Hands

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Re: OTA notes
« Reply #103 on: June 22, 2018, 10:17:23 AM »
There no such thing as a photographic memory.  Some people can just remember and absorb a lot of what they saw, but over time that info wont be as detailed as more is absorbed (sometimes much more). I know its a commonly used term, but it really doesnt exist. If he thinks it helps him  remember plays and stuff, good for him.
I have a story about this phenomenon that I centered my books around. Most people in WI will know this name, Seymour Cray of Cray Supercomputers. Before he started Control Data he was in FL. with another scientist, Dr. Sanford and a young war vet and project manager Jack Andrews. Jack Andrews, made his reputation at Bell Labs and told me this story when we had a joint project. I can't remember the company, obviously I don't have this memory aspect, but they were making one of the first MRI type machines. They took the machine to a major hospital and would return a few weeks later to show how to calibrate and properly use it. Jack stated the hospital doctors were razing the three of them because they were PhDs but not doctors. So Dr. Sanford had a prickly side and picked up a Physician’s Handbook, which is about 3-4 inches thick, and said they would give them the follow-on support for the machine if they could ask him a question from that book and he couldn't answer. Jack and Seymour gave him heck because he wasn't authorized to give away a couple thousands of dollars. Sanford told them to relax and he had it under control. Two weeks later they went back and for 30 minutes Dr. Sanford answered every question they presented to him from the book. He had it memorized in 2 weeks. Jack said as smart as Dr. Cray was...Dr. Sanford's memory was truly special.
So I don't think St. Brown has a true photographic memory, but I suspect he can join the ranks of Rodgers, and Winston as players that have an ability to retain information and that’s a great asset.
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