October 16, 2018, 12:56:14 AM

Author Topic: Matthews roughing Smith?  (Read 599 times)

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Offline PackerYakker

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Matthews roughing Smith?
« on: September 26, 2018, 11:00:33 AM »
After reviewing the full text of the "body weight" rule, it appears to have been incorrectly applied in Matthews vs. Smith.

The rule reads:

"A rushing defender is prohibited from committing such intimidating and punishing acts as “stuffing” a passer into the ground or unnecessarily wrestling or driving him down after the passer has thrown the ball, even if the rusher makes his initial contact with the passer within the one-step limitation provided for in (a) above. When tackling a passer who is in a defenseless posture (e.g., during or just after throwing a pass), a defensive player must not unnecessarily or violently throw him down or land on top of him with all or most of the defender’s weight. Instead, the defensive player must strive to wrap up the passer with the defensive player’s arms and not land on the passer with all or most of his body weight"

According to the bolded section, only a defenseless QB is afforded protection from "body weight" tackles. It describes a defenseless QB as one who has thrown a pass or is in the process of doing so. A QB standing in the pocket surveying the field doesn't seem to qualify as a defenseless player. He has neither released the ball nor is he in the process of throwing it. In that case, a QB doesn't seem to have extra protection. The regular rules pertaining to tackling would seem to apply.

Perhaps there are some further stipulations for "defenseless" that are not alluded to in the above rule. They use "e.g." which means "for example", which suggests that those two conditions (i.e. during or just after throwing a pass) are not exhaustive. If those two conditions are indeed the only ones that define a "defenseless" QB, then the officials clearly blew the Matthews call and several other around the league.


Online ricky

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Re: Matthews roughing Smith?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2018, 11:47:22 AM »
This is undoubtedly true. However, if the refs decide the play is roughing the passer, and the league agrees with them, then this discussion is moot. It doesn't matter. The refs and the NFL execs have decided that tackling the QB is roughing the passer. Period. So, they don't care about the rules, or make up the rules as they go along? Welcome to the new reality.
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Offline dannobanano

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Re: Matthews roughing Smith?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2018, 11:52:36 AM »
After reviewing the full text of the "body weight" rule, it appears to have been incorrectly applied in Matthews vs. Smith.

The rule reads:

"A rushing defender is prohibited from committing such intimidating and punishing acts as “stuffing” a passer into the ground or unnecessarily wrestling or driving him down after the passer has thrown the ball, even if the rusher makes his initial contact with the passer within the one-step limitation provided for in (a) above. When tackling a passer who is in a defenseless posture (e.g., during or just after throwing a pass), a defensive player must not unnecessarily or violently throw him down or land on top of him with all or most of the defender’s weight. Instead, the defensive player must strive to wrap up the passer with the defensive player’s arms and not land on the passer with all or most of his body weight"

According to the bolded section, only a defenseless QB is afforded protection from "body weight" tackles. It describes a defenseless QB as one who has thrown a pass or is in the process of doing so. A QB standing in the pocket surveying the field doesn't seem to qualify as a defenseless player. He has neither released the ball nor is he in the process of throwing it. In that case, a QB doesn't seem to have extra protection. The regular rules pertaining to tackling would seem to apply.

Perhaps there are some further stipulations for "defenseless" that are not alluded to in the above rule. They use "e.g." which means "for example", which suggests that those two conditions (i.e. during or just after throwing a pass) are not exhaustive. If those two conditions are indeed the only ones that define a "defenseless" QB, then the officials clearly blew the Matthews call and several other around the league.

The last sentence (in red) is where the league gave itself a "gray area" that leaves ANY tackle of the QB open to interpretation of the officials.

Offline OneTwoSixFive

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Re: Matthews roughing Smith?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2018, 12:25:38 PM »
It's not the rules...it's the interpretation of the rules. That rule will change, not the rule itself but the emphasis on it. The competition committee that decides what refs should play extra attention to, have got it wrong (again).

While they tried to sweep the 2nd and 3rd Matthews sacks under the table (by agreeing with the ref the Minnesota sack should have been called as 'roughing the passer'), the weight of negative opinionnationally has become broad and deep enough that the committee has been forced to pay attention. The committee used to admit ref's mistakes in the past, now it is support the refs, right or wrong.........a very bad state of affairs. All it really takes is a de-emphasis on that particular penalty, back to something much closer to what most of us understand as a form tackle, or a penalty. When you take away a fans homerism, most of us understand what should and should not be called, most of the time.

Finally, I second danno's comment, that the refs should have enough wiggle-room to make the natural call, if you empower them, I think you gain in the long run. The alternative is to try to nail down each rule in such nitpicking detail, it just overcomplicates everything (see the argument awhile back on what is a catch). KISS
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 12:31:21 PM by OneTwoSixFive »
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Offline dannobanano

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Re: Matthews roughing Smith?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2018, 12:39:02 PM »
I remember when they used to call "in the grasp" a lot, to help protect QB's from getting destroyed.

When was the last time anyone here ever saw that called in a game? I know I haven't in a long-long time. How come!?

I'll wait to hear from someone else....................




Offline Bignutz

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Re: Matthews roughing Smith?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2018, 01:35:52 PM »
What pizzes me off is that Rodgers got tackled in almost the same manner and....nothing. If you’re going to enforce a rule do it fairly across the board.

Online ricky

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Re: Matthews roughing Smith?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2018, 02:20:01 PM »
What pizzes me off is that Rodgers got tackled in almost the same manner and....nothing. If you’re going to enforce a rule do it fairly across the board.

The calls on CMIII were because he complained about the call in Minny, IMO. Then, when given the chance to "get even", the refs flagged him again. And Ed Hochuli (for the league) called it a "textbook" case of roughing. That basically no one else agrees with him doesn't seem to matter. The league needs to tell the refs to keep the hankies in their pockets, or, mark my words, the Super Bowl will be decided on a roughing the passer controversy. And the NFL will then change the rule during the offseason. And the wrong team will probably be SB champs. OneTwoSixFive and I are in total agreement- at the moment, change the interpretation of the rule, or emphasis, or whatever word you want to use. Then, in the off season, change the wording of the rule to make it clear that only obvious, egregious roughing should be flagged. Use Matthews hit on Trubisky in the first game to show the wrong way. And use his hits on Cousins and Smith as the correct ways to sack a QB. Won't happen, but we can always hope.
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Offline Fargofootball

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Re: Matthews roughing Smith?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2018, 04:15:03 PM »
These calls are making the game un-watchable.
 

Offline dannobanano

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Re: Matthews roughing Smith?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2018, 04:25:46 PM »
These calls are making the game un-watchable.

That's why I went to Hayward, WI this last weekend!!

Saturday we watched a band do a Beach Boys tribute concert and did some gaming.

Sunday we had brunch at the Norske Nooke...........yummy great food. (had the Ultimate Potato Pancake meal. 14" potato pancake/2 eggs over-medium/4 strip of bacon/hollandaise sauce). https://norskenook.com/

Stopped at the in-laws lake place, sat on the deck w/ cup of coffee and watched the Eagles and Loons.

Online ricky

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Re: Matthews roughing Smith?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2018, 05:41:26 PM »
I remember when they used to call "in the grasp" a lot, to help protect QB's from getting destroyed.

When was the last time anyone here ever saw that called in a game? I know I haven't in a long-long time. How come!?

I'll wait to hear from someone else....................



I also remember that call, but also haven't seen it in years. Wasn't there some controversy about when to whistle the play dead? After all, guys  could look like they were tackled, then somehow manage to escape to make a throw. Remember the miracle catch in the SB from Eli to Tyree? Before the throw, Eli disappeared under several Patriot defenders, none of whom actually tackled him. That was amazing, but the catch itself was simply mindboggling. Literally once in a lifetime. If that rule had been in effect, the play could have been whistled dead while Eli was in the backfield, and the Pats go 18-0, and we would never have to hear from Mercury Morris again. Alas, it didn't happen. And now, we have the spectre of a mediocre QB getting into the HOF. Sorry for rambling. 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/new-york-giants/0ap2000000146973/SB-XLII-David-Tyree-s-helmet-catch
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Online craig

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Re: Matthews roughing Smith?
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2018, 06:01:48 AM »
Think the Matthews plays have been somewhat flukey.  How often do you get straight-on sacks like that, with a full running-start and a head-on hit at the QB?  Not that common.  Seems like most a guy is coming from behind, or side on, or the QB is pulling away or something.  The Packers may not get another sack-opportunity like those all season. 

I'm not so sure this wasn't an appropriate call, given the rule.  He had a clear, straight-away shot, and he targeted his shoulder and full body-weight to drive and pin Smith.  His shoulder with all his body weight was right up around the neck area.  Wouldn't have needed much adjustment to be a clear neck-smasher, or collarbone, or ribs, or head-for-concussion.  The rule is trying to avoid that, and I'm not sure it's wrong to do so. 

But, it puts the defender when he's got a clear straight-on shot like that in a difficult position.  League basically wants you to adjust a bit, off to the side, and basically to do something of an arm tackle with weight offset.  Matthews had two open clear steps to make a little bit of an adjustment, and aim his shoulder and weight off a little bit; he didn't.  But, we know QB's are VERY elusive.  If you offset your aim and your weight for the right side, might not the QB elude to the left, and vice versa?  Aiming straight down the middle is the least likely to get eluded.  But if you do target straight down the middle and then the QB doesn't shift either direction, it's the straight-on drive that Matthews have.  Which is really scary. 


Offline RT

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Re: Matthews roughing Smith?
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2018, 10:49:40 AM »
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The competition committee wants the rule enforced differently. There is strong sentiment on the committee that the two calls on Clay Matthew shouldn't have been made. So no change to the rule itself is needed, in the committee's view. It's about how it's enforced.

Offline RT

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Re: Matthews roughing Smith?
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2018, 10:54:05 AM »
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The competition committee's plan has been to use the officiating videos to change how the rule is enforced. This is the first step in that.

This is hilarious, the league is doing a 180 from 1-2 weeks ago.

Online craig

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Re: Matthews roughing Smith?
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2018, 10:58:50 AM »
“If you watch that play, you will see that the defender is still two steps away from the quarterback when he knows he’s got a sack,” Hochuli said. “He knows because the ball is still tucked down, and it’s not even up in a passing posture. At a step away, there’s absolutely no doubt about it and all he’s got to do is go to the side. Instead of continuing on straight into the quarterback, he’s just got to roll to the side and make it more of an arm tackle instead of a body tackle.

"After he’s made contact with the quarterback, he still takes two more steps. After he’s made contact before he goes to the ground. Roll off to the side. There were actually many opportunities for Clay to roll to the side. And he is an amazing athlete. These guys are all amazing athletes and the things they’re able to do, I may not be able to do, but that’s all he’s got to do – make that mental adjustment that as he approaches the quarterback.”

To be honest, I don't really disagree with Hochuli.  He's right.  Matthews had opportunity to roll off, a little, but he was trying to drill him into the ground, until the very last second when he finally released his hands.  He didn't need to drive him, but he did.   "Unnecessary roughness", I can't really disagree that it was. 

Offline RT

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Re: Matthews roughing Smith?
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2018, 11:42:48 AM »
I couldn't disagree with you more craig. The thing that Hochuli has 100% correct is that these guys are amazing athletes and that includes the guys that they are trying to tackle. The rest is just propaganda. A good number of these QB's that are being tackled are just as big as the guys trying to tackle them, they better wrapup or they will be made to look foolish.

Josh Allen 6'5" 238
Joe Flacco 6'6" 245
Ben Roethlisberger 6'5" 250
Andwew Luck 6'4" 235
Blake Bortles 6'5" 235
Carson Wentz 6'5" 237
Cam Newton 6'5" 250

See a common theme here? These guys are as big as most TE's but yet a defensive player is not allowed to wrapup well tackling? Add in QB's with RB like skills who are very good at avoiding defenders, players like Mariota, Wilson, Prescott yet the NFL declares them off limits to be tackled.

I also guess that a high number of these people that talk about tackling on the side or just pulling the QB down on top of them never played the game. If a 250# LB trys to pull Cam or Ben to the ground on top of them, they will just stiffarm them to the ground and continue on with the play. Which probably will not end well for the defense.