March 22, 2019, 05:33:23 AM

Author Topic: Za'Darius Smith Agrees with Packers  (Read 1510 times)

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Offline claymaker

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Re: Za'Darius Smith Agrees with Packers
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2019, 03:57:58 PM »
That takes Edge off the draft menu until 4th/5th Round, at least.

Early Packer draft will be mostly offense. IMO.

Definitely not. They still lack a dynamic edge rusher in my view. Smith and Smith should be productive pass rushers and solid starters. Z Smith looks to have his best football in front of him but P Smith has reached his ceiling.

If they paid Zadarius Smith 16M per, someone needs to clean out their office today.

We knew they were going to spend money on edge rushers in FA. Can't be mad when they sign two of the top 5 edge rushers in FA to reasonable deals.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 04:07:07 PM by claymaker »

Offline RT

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Re: Za'Darius Smith Agrees with Packers
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2019, 05:18:06 PM »
That takes Edge off the draft menu until 4th/5th Round, at least.

Early Packer draft will be mostly offense. IMO.

Definitely not. They still lack a dynamic edge rusher in my view. Smith and Smith should be productive pass rushers and solid starters. Z Smith looks to have his best football in front of him but P Smith has reached his ceiling.

If they paid Zadarius Smith 16M per, someone needs to clean out their office today.

We knew they were going to spend money on edge rushers in FA. Can't be mad when they sign two of the top 5 edge rushers in FA to reasonable deals.

Disappointed in some of the Packers actions claymaker, but certainly not mad. Disappointed that Murphy is still hands on in football personnel and making decisions based on fan appeal and not what is best for building a team. He is more interested in winning the off season than winning football games. This is a repeat of the Jimmy Graham signing a year ago, just a PR move. This is a direct quote from Tom Silverstein's article today about the signings.

"Packers CEO Mark Murphy has taken a leadership role on the football side and desperately needed a splash in free agency to excite the fan base."

This management structure and Murphy's meddling in personnel should be concerning to many, but the fans who felt suppressed over the years about free agency are now to euphoric to notice or care. Murphy has his plan and it is about making money first, if some winning actually comes with it than great. Today was about selling hope and with the fans new hope will come the spike in sales of all thing Packers. In the words of P.T. Barnum, 'There's a sucker born every minute'.

Offline Shinesman

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Re: Za'Darius Smith Agrees with Packers
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2019, 05:52:42 PM »
That takes Edge off the draft menu until 4th/5th Round, at least.

Early Packer draft will be mostly offense. IMO.

Definitely not. They still lack a dynamic edge rusher in my view. Smith and Smith should be productive pass rushers and solid starters. Z Smith looks to have his best football in front of him but P Smith has reached his ceiling.

If they paid Zadarius Smith 16M per, someone needs to clean out their office today.

We knew they were going to spend money on edge rushers in FA. Can't be mad when they sign two of the top 5 edge rushers in FA to reasonable deals.

Disappointed in some of the Packers actions claymaker, but certainly not mad. Disappointed that Murphy is still hands on in football personnel and making decisions based on fan appeal and not what is best for building a team. He is more interested in winning the off season than winning football games. This is a repeat of the Jimmy Graham signing a year ago, just a PR move. This is a direct quote from Tom Silverstein's article today about the signings.

"Packers CEO Mark Murphy has taken a leadership role on the football side and desperately needed a splash in free agency to excite the fan base."

This management structure and Murphy's meddling in personnel should be concerning to many, but the fans who felt suppressed over the years about free agency are now to euphoric to notice or care. Murphy has his plan and it is about making money first, if some winning actually comes with it than great. Today was about selling hope and with the fans new hope will come the spike in sales of all thing Packers. In the words of P.T. Barnum, 'There's a sucker born every minute'.

Winning = Making Money in pro sports. So Murphy is trying to win. You hate Graham so much, but he was on track to set Packer TE records quietly before breaking his thumb. If you think a guy who catches passes was supposed to be an all-pro with is broken opposable thumb you are mistaken. They also did not target him as much as one would think in places like the red zone. With a coach who knows how to use him in the red zone, he could be phenominal.

They are paying for solid production. Both Smith's have not been plagued by injury and provide instant upgrades over what we have. These moves allow the team to take a guy like Devin White if he falls to 12, and not reach on someone like Polite or Burns at 12. These are smart moves, the things they should have been doing for years.
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Offline The GM

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Re: Za'Darius Smith Agrees with Packers
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2019, 06:15:31 PM »
Whats more important than getting these players is being able to get rid of them if needed down the road.

They got younger and quicker up front, but we'll see what happens.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 06:18:47 PM by The GM »

Offline dannobanano

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Re: Za'Darius Smith Agrees with Packers
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2019, 06:40:36 PM »
Quote
That takes Edge off the draft menu until 4th/5th Round, at least.

Early Packer draft will be mostly offense. IMO.
[/color]

Definitely not. They still lack a dynamic edge rusher in my view. Smith and Smith should be productive pass rushers and solid starters. Z Smith looks to have his best football in front of him but P Smith has reached his ceiling.

If they paid Zadarius Smith 16M per, someone needs to clean out their office today.

We knew they were going to spend money on edge rushers in FA. Can't be mad when they sign two of the top 5 edge rushers in FA to reasonable deals.

I'll just leave this here.

Quote
Quote from: OneTwoSixFive on Today at 10:58:09 AM
Quote from: dannobanano on Today at 07:31:57 AM
That takes Edge off the draft menu until 4th/5th Round, at least.

Early Packer draft will be mostly offense. IMO.

I wouldn't be so quick to rule out a prime edge guy at #12. The value is there for several players like Burns, Sweat, Ferrell (and they will be on a rookie contract). what this does do is reduce the NEED to go edge at #12. It puts DL like Wilkins, Oliver, maybe Gary in the frame with edge guys. Heck, they could go CB (again) and move Josh Jackson to play a FS role. They could go Hockenson, or Fant, or Devin White (or Bush). Maybe they can afford to pick up Jeffery Simmons at #30 now and wait a year for him to play. So many possibilities. Heck, they could even trade their pick at #12 to a bad team for a first next year and a second this year.

My guess after all that FA craziness, is that they look at trading down several spots to accelerate the roster makeover. That is much easier to do when you don't HAVE to get an edge at #12.

I won't disagree with you OTSF. The opportunity door is wide open, whether player acquisition or trade down. The whole deck is on the table.

One of Za'Darius Smith's strengths is moving inside as an interior pass rusher on 3rd down. He led the league in 3rd down sacks/pressures with 17 this last season.

If he's pass rushing from the interior on obvious passing downs, they still need a reliable Edge/OLB to take his spot. So an Edge player somewhere in the top 3 rounds can't be taken off the table (good call). Plus, all four FA contract's from this year will expire the same year this year's rookie's contracts will be expiring (except for first rounders who could get a 5th year option). So drafting the replacements for this years crop of FA may be partially happening in this years draft class.

Offline davekenya

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Re: Za'Darius Smith Agrees with Packers
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2019, 07:25:42 PM »
It does give them more flexibility to move around 1st round if they want to...to target a player at another position more desirable where they can make BPA meet need. 

Basically, they did pay A LOT for 2 above average but not elite  edge rushers with upside potential....buying security at the position with a lot of cap money.  That's the bet.
The other strategy would have been to get one but not two of these edge guys and get the other edge guy in round 1...would be much cheaper and allow the 13+ million to be spent elsewhere.  Perhaps they didn't want to gamble on getting a guy in R1 or they valued the edge guys much less than other teams/draftniks seem to.    Of course, maybe they get a 3rd edge guy too in R1.  Seems overkill at one position though, so less sure about it.
Hopefully, this does not handcuff them for addressing other needs (for example, using the 13 million for resigning Wilkerson/Breeland, getting Tate in UFA for slot WR or some other example to upgrade at other need positions versus relying on draftpicks to be pan out).
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 07:32:40 PM by davekenya »

Online craig

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Re: Za'Darius Smith Agrees with Packers
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2019, 09:36:47 PM »
..Disappointed in some of the Packers actions claymaker, but certainly not mad. Disappointed that Murphy is still hands on in football personnel and making decisions based on fan appeal and not what is best for building a team. He is more interested in winning the off season than winning football games. This is a repeat of the Jimmy Graham signing a year ago, just a PR move. ...

This management structure and Murphy's meddling in personnel should be concerning to many, but the fans who felt suppressed over the years about free agency are now to euphoric to notice or care. Murphy has his plan and it is about making money first, if some winning actually comes with it than great. Today was about selling hope and with the fans new hope will come the spike in sales of all thing Packers. In the words of P.T. Barnum, 'There's a sucker born every minute'.

RT, I have no idea about the players.  I assume like most FA's, their $$ will exceed their production, and they probably won't turn the ship around.  That's how FA works, for the most part.  So maybe they were all bad signings, high dollars for guys who start on 7-9 type teams.  Beats me. 

I hope not, and I hope that Gute and their scouts got some guys who are going to play very well and help the Packers contend.  I certainly don't expect any stardom from any of these guys, but they aren't getting paid really at star level either, it doesn't sound like.  This is maybe fair market for non-star starters?  Or no? 

Online craig

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Re: Za'Darius Smith Agrees with Packers
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2019, 09:56:58 PM »
RT, you kind of make the point that spending on FA's excites the fans but doesn't win. 
I want to make a different point:  that spending on FA's isn't anybody's preferred choice, but rather is the consequence of ineffective D+D. 

First, a team has money because their D+D program hasn't produced enough internal guys to earn the salary cap cash.  Perry, Datone, Neal, Worthy, HaHa, etc., and more recent selections, the Packers just haven't drafted enough good young players to be worth spending out the salary cap on.  When you don't have enough internal talent to absorb your cap, you look outside to maximize your use of the cap.  And obviously the bargains need to be guys on rookie deals, you don't get bargains in FA.  But the Packers just haven't had enough rookie-contract winners and bargains. 

Second, when you don't D+D enough good players to fill your spots, that also forces a team to look outside.  If MD Jennings and Jerron McMillian and Jones and HaHa and Brice had all developed into solid, even if not great, regular safeties, you're not looking outside to bring in a non-star like Amos.  But they haven't been able to fill enough positions via D+D, thus the pressure to look outside. 

I guess what I'm saying is that the activity in FA doesn't reflect an unwise voluntary shift in philosophy away from D+D.  Rather, it is an involuntary necessity forced by past D+D failure. 

You mentioned that the signings are about PR, not about winning.  I suspect that to just stick with the D+D guys they've assembled would not be about winning; and that their D+D performance has forced the types of FA activity they've turned to in order to try to win. 

Offline footballdad

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Re: Za'Darius Smith Agrees with Packers
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2019, 02:26:33 AM »
I've stated on here before that I am no fan of Murphy. Adding / cutting players needs to be looked at on a case by case basis. Comparing signing four capable players in their mid twenties, that will make a positive impact to signing an old Jimmy Graham is not valid. Did not like signing Graham and still feel the same way. Young Jimmy would catch the ball and run with it or out jump a defender and come down with the ball. Our Jimmy still catches the ball but either falls down or is taken down one on one by a 195 lb dback.  The argument for cutting Nelson would also apply to Jimmy. Different position but essentially they traded old for old.

These are 4 young guys in their prime.  IMO Turner will be a solid guy. Needed someone badly that can step in and take snaps at multiple positions without a drop off. Amos and Preston Smith may not be all pros, but both are solid and dependable AND definately an upgrade over what we have had in the recent past.
Za'Darius is being paid, in part on potential. He is a very good player who can become a great player. Do I think the Packers overpaid? Yes. For all four, but thats life in Green Bay. Gute did what he needed to do. Exceeded my expectations. Upgraded several positions that badly needed it. Increased flexibility in the draft so they are in position to truly take the best player available. Should they still draft an edge guy? Of course. But now they can take a Banago, Winovich, or Fergusen as opposed to Burns, or Ferrell. Guys like Oliver, Wilkins, Ford, and Hockenson are now solidly in play. That is a good thing. Be happy.

Offline The GM

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Re: Za'Darius Smith Agrees with Packers
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2019, 05:57:41 AM »
RT, you kind of make the point that spending on FA's excites the fans but doesn't win. 
I want to make a different point:  that spending on FA's isn't anybody's preferred choice, but rather is the consequence of ineffective D+D. 

First, a team has money because their D+D program hasn't produced enough internal guys to earn the salary cap cash.  Perry, Datone, Neal, Worthy, HaHa, etc., and more recent selections, the Packers just haven't drafted enough good young players to be worth spending out the salary cap on.  When you don't have enough internal talent to absorb your cap, you look outside to maximize your use of the cap.  And obviously the bargains need to be guys on rookie deals, you don't get bargains in FA.  But the Packers just haven't had enough rookie-contract winners and bargains. 

Second, when you don't D+D enough good players to fill your spots, that also forces a team to look outside.  If MD Jennings and Jerron McMillian and Jones and HaHa and Brice had all developed into solid, even if not great, regular safeties, you're not looking outside to bring in a non-star like Amos.  But they haven't been able to fill enough positions via D+D, thus the pressure to look outside. 

I guess what I'm saying is that the activity in FA doesn't reflect an unwise voluntary shift in philosophy away from D+D.  Rather, it is an involuntary necessity forced by past D+D failure. 

You mentioned that the signings are about PR, not about winning.  I suspect that to just stick with the D+D guys they've assembled would not be about winning; and that their D+D performance has forced the types of FA activity they've turned to in order to try to win.

Agree with this Craig.  I read somewhere the Packers have nobody left from their 2015 draft. Thats pathetic.   I dont think they really want to rely on FA as much, but they almost have to.  Relying on FA hasn't been successful (Dan Snider) but should be used as a supplemental tool to go along with good drafting and trades.  We'll see what happens but the Packers have too many holes to fill because of poor drafting to be able to rely on just the draft.  JMO

You also have to realize that not all of these guys are likely to work out, but I give Gute credit for making the moves.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 06:07:54 AM by The GM »

Offline Donzo

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Re: Za'Darius Smith Agrees with Packers
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2019, 05:59:34 AM »
Disappointed in some of the Packers actions claymaker, but certainly not mad. Disappointed that Murphy is still hands on in football personnel and making decisions based on fan appeal and not what is best for building a team. He is more interested in winning the off season than winning football games. This is a repeat of the Jimmy Graham signing a year ago, just a PR move. This is a direct quote from Tom Silverstein's article today about the signings.

"Packers CEO Mark Murphy has taken a leadership role on the football side and desperately needed a splash in free agency to excite the fan base."

This management structure and Murphy's meddling in personnel should be concerning to many, but the fans who felt suppressed over the years about free agency are now to euphoric to notice or care. Murphy has his plan and it is about making money first, if some winning actually comes with it than great. Today was about selling hope and with the fans new hope will come the spike in sales of all thing Packers. In the words of P.T. Barnum, 'There's a sucker born every minute'.


Geez O Petes, that's a cynical point of view... I was thinking this was all Gute, I don't see Murphy being involved with player personnel. Certainly don't want to consider anything Silverstein has to say; his comments are worthless in regards to evaluating the Packers. His only concern is in generating clicks and subscriptions.

I definitely understand your sentiment with regards to the big picture. Big splashes in free agency is generally fools gold, but there are exceptions. Wolf building his DL through free agency in the 90's and TT signing Woodson and Picket in 2006 were vital in winning Super Bowls. Lets hope yesterday fits that narrative.

For the deals, I really like signing ZSmith and Amous... They are very good ascending players just hitting their primes. If Gute stopped with those two signings, I would have liked yesterday better.
 
The PSmith and Turner signings are bigger gambles... PSmith runs hot and cold and Turner is either a late bloomer or flash in the pan. We'll see.

All in all, I think it was a very good day for the Packers.

Offline dannobanano

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Re: Za'Darius Smith Agrees with Packers
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2019, 06:50:10 AM »
Disappointed in some of the Packers actions claymaker, but certainly not mad. Disappointed that Murphy is still hands on in football personnel and making decisions based on fan appeal and not what is best for building a team. He is more interested in winning the off season than winning football games. This is a repeat of the Jimmy Graham signing a year ago, just a PR move. This is a direct quote from Tom Silverstein's article today about the signings.

"Packers CEO Mark Murphy has taken a leadership role on the football side and desperately needed a splash in free agency to excite the fan base."

This management structure and Murphy's meddling in personnel should be concerning to many, but the fans who felt suppressed over the years about free agency are now to euphoric to notice or care. Murphy has his plan and it is about making money first, if some winning actually comes with it than great. Today was about selling hope and with the fans new hope will come the spike in sales of all thing Packers. In the words of P.T. Barnum, 'There's a sucker born every minute'.


Geez O Petes, that's a cynical point of view... I was thinking this was all Gute, I don't see Murphy being involved with player personnel. Certainly don't want to consider anything Silverstein has to say; his comments are worthless in regards to evaluating the Packers. His only concern is in generating clicks and subscriptions.

I definitely understand your sentiment with regards to the big picture. Big splashes in free agency is generally fools gold, but there are exceptions. Wolf building his DL through free agency in the 90's and TT signing Woodson and Picket in 2006 were vital in winning Super Bowls. Lets hope yesterday fits that narrative.

For the deals, I really like signing ZSmith and Amous... They are very good ascending players just hitting their primes. If Gute stopped with those two signings, I would have liked yesterday better.
 
The PSmith and Turner signings are bigger gambles... PSmith runs hot and cold and Turner is either a late bloomer or flash in the pan. We'll see.

All in all, I think it was a very good day for the Packers.

Agree with the sentiment here Donzo. Especially on Za'Darius Smith.

I read that he led the NFL last year on 3rd down QB sacks/hits/pressures...........while playing interior DL, and Pettine prefers to get pressure on the QB by coming up the middle. So signing ZS is very much a "scheme fit" signing as much a signing of a young and hopefully ascending player.

Both Smith's are strong in setting the edge against the run, so they are a scheme fit, in that regard as well, for Pettines defense.

Amos can play both FS and in the box equally well, so he has scheme versatility and is a quality tackler (only 9% miss rate).

Turner can play every OL spot except Center.

Gute paid market rate for young, versatile, dependable (health wise), and (cross fingers) ascending talent.

There is a risk/reward factor at play here and the AR window is in the closing stages, so making a bold move now is the possible motivation for this kind of spending spree. I think it sends a message to AR that they are wanting to get back to the Big Dance before his days are done. I hope he responds positively.

I guess I'd rather be thinking about the "Could Be" potential from these signings, rather than be sitting back and saying "would've, could've, should've".
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 06:51:44 AM by dannobanano »

Online OneTwoSixFive

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Re: Za'Darius Smith Agrees with Packers
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2019, 07:01:45 AM »
That takes Edge off the draft menu until 4th/5th Round, at least.

Early Packer draft will be mostly offense. IMO.
Respectfully, I 100% disagree.  These signing mean that GB can go BPA.  FA is for need - the draft is for depth and development.  I do not know of a defensive coach that would not want depth at Edge.  Sweat and Burns are both still possibilities at #12 and I can definitely see them drafting Edge elsewhere before the 4th/5th - especially if they do not at #12.  If either Smith gets injured, they are not far off from where they previously were.  Also need to consider next year when drafting this year.  Edge is still in the mix.

So many posters seem to forget Ferrell would be in the mix along with Burns and Sweat, so just a reminder he should also be considered.
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Offline Hands

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Re: Za'Darius Smith Agrees with Packers
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2019, 07:22:41 AM »
Zsmith is very big and can rush from the middle or the outside. Psmith is very strong against the run and equally adept at rushing the passer. For the Packers to make it back to the playoffs....they need solid players. Both of these guys are solid. I personally think Zsmith will be all pro with just a little more solid dline then what the Packers have now. The poor drafts from year's past have caught up with the Packers. They need an upgrade on their roster and it may mean cutting some players that have some years left like CM.
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Offline RT

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Re: Za'Darius Smith Agrees with Packers
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2019, 07:35:28 AM »
Some good responses here.

First, my concern is not about the individual players and if they are good or bad signings. All that will be determined over time, as some have pointed out. History is spotty on such signing be successful, but that is not the point of my posting.

I question who is behind them and what is the motive. This was discussed over a year ago when the structure was announced by Murphy, I believe craig that you and I debated it at that time. IMO, Murphy is a core problem in undermining the football people and them maximizing the success of the Packers. I had hope that he would step aside with the firing of MM, but he likes the taste of being the self-appointed owner of the Green Bay Packers and the power that comes with it. Sadly no one on the board seems to care, profits keep growing and for them that is what really matters. Murphy was a player labor rep when he was playing with the Redskins and has always voiced that the players should have more say. In his desire to empower players he has become an enabler to Rodgers and that currently is the number one issue standing in the way of the Packers being a successful organization. Has hiring a new coach helped in sending the team in the right direction? When Murphy had Rodgers call the new coach before hiring him to get his approval, well that should tells us all we need to know. The number one thing that will make the Packers contenders again is not signing a group of marginal players in free agency to 'make a splash to excite the fan base', it is empowering a coach to get Rodgers to just do his damn job. But that is more unlikely to happen today than it was a year ago. Any success that is currently achieved by the team on the field will be in spite of Murphy, not because of him.