November 14, 2019, 01:39:26 PM

Author Topic: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned  (Read 2853 times)

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Offline OneTwoSixFive

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2019, 11:20:32 AM »
quote "But if the receivers prove to be just be a bunch of JAGs who make a lot of mistakes, and Rodgers is a struggling, bad-decision-making inaccurate thrower, with no deep-ball, the offense is going to struggle."

Yep, if none of the current receivers take a step, and the offense continues to struggle, it could scupper the Packers for years. Draft a good receiver next year, give him two years to become good and by the time he breaks out like a butterfly, it is 2022. Fingers crossed (and legs.....and toes) that it all goes better than that.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 11:22:03 AM by OneTwoSixFive »
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Online B

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2019, 02:35:21 PM »
Equanimeous St. Brown runs a 4.48 40 Where did the idea he lacks speed come from? You mix that with being 6'5" and that boy can fly.

Marquez Valdes- Scantling runs a 4.38. He was as green as grass as a rookie not playing against top notch competition  in college. I think there is every reason to expect a much more refined route runner in year two.

J'mon Moore spent the entire offseason working on improving explosiveness, refining route-running and improving his concentration. He was a beast in college,  he's doing everything in his power to catch up to the pro game and to be ready to compete right out of the gate in season two.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 03:00:23 PM by B »
The Green Bay Packers never lost a football game.
They just ran out of time.
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Offline TAYLORBOY

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2019, 03:33:10 PM »
What have we learned?????
I think Gute did a 180 and actually secured FA's and drafted players that fit the D scheme....I find that refreshing. Most all of the D players signed as FA or drafted was players Petitine would pick himself or fits the mold he needs.. most all of our draft picks and FA's signed as DL/OLB can play up and down the line...mix and match to each situation...

What I REALLY liked was we didn't trade down when we had a good fit/talented player at the pick...James last YR...Watt the yr before...and this yr we still chased a player to play their positions because someone else could do later because of the trade downs.

I never thought TT gave Capers the TYPE of players needed for his Defense....maybe Capers D scheme was too rigid to find enough "right" players to really make it work.

I worry more about our RB's in this O scheme than the WR's....hopefully gone are the days we pass pass pass punt

Online craig

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2019, 05:47:25 PM »
Equanimeous St. Brown runs a 4.48 40 Where did the idea he lacks speed come from? You mix that with being 6'5" and that boy can fly....

He's not fast... for an NFL wide receiver, that is.  He's average. 

4.48 is league average for a WR.  He's right on the dot average. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40-yard_dash

He is fast... for his height. 

His length/strength combo has a lot of advantages, so I'm very hopeful on his behalf.  Large catch radius, so if he gets a defender on his back and Rodgers throws it front, he can very effectively use his body to block off the defender, just like a basketball rebounder.  So being league-average in speed while way above average is height and reach offers some cool opportunities. 

I'm not sure that average speed with length is especially conducive to elusive stop-and-go quickness moves, though? 

So average speed, with some extra height-based advantages, and perhaps some height-based disadvantages.  Hopefully MVS, and Rodgers, are able to utilize the length-based advantages? 

I actually am more optimistic for ESB's career than MVS.  I think ESB may have better body control and coordination, and my amateur take is that his hands are much better.  Also think he's got capacity to be a really powerful blocker.  The prospect of Jones running on the outside with ESB in front of him would be really fun! 

The MVS speed could be a nice weapon and open up some opportunities, though; I hope they convert some deep balls.  May also be that his speed will prompt corners to give him big cushion, so that even when he isn't stretching deep, that he can maybe get some relatively uncontested short completions too? 

Offline dannobanano

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2019, 06:23:50 PM »
Equanimeous St. Brown runs a 4.48 40 Where did the idea he lacks speed come from? You mix that with being 6'5" and that boy can fly....

He's not fast... for an NFL wide receiver, that is.  He's average. 

4.48 is league average for a WR.  He's right on the dot average. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40-yard_dash

He is fast... for his height. 

His length/strength combo has a lot of advantages, so I'm very hopeful on his behalf.  Large catch radius, so if he gets a defender on his back and Rodgers throws it front, he can very effectively use his body to block off the defender, just like a basketball rebounder.  So being league-average in speed while way above average is height and reach offers some cool opportunities. 

I'm not sure that average speed with length is especially conducive to elusive stop-and-go quickness moves, though? 

So average speed, with some extra height-based advantages, and perhaps some height-based disadvantages.  Hopefully MVS, and Rodgers, are able to utilize the length-based advantages? 

I actually am more optimistic for ESB's career than MVS.  I think ESB may have better body control and coordination, and my amateur take is that his hands are much better.  Also think he's got capacity to be a really powerful blocker.  The prospect of Jones running on the outside with ESB in front of him would be really fun! 

The MVS speed could be a nice weapon and open up some opportunities, though; I hope they convert some deep balls.  May also be that his speed will prompt corners to give him big cushion, so that even when he isn't stretching deep, that he can maybe get some relatively uncontested short completions too?

ESB is average for his grouping (WR and CB), but those two position groups are the fastest in the NFL, followed closely by RB.

Not sure if that matters, but just making an observation.

Offline SET4YRS

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2019, 07:02:41 PM »
 With the strength of free agency and the draft being defense, Gutey went with it. Pettine did well last year dealing with all the injuries and a sputtering offense that didn't do well consistently on sustained drives. Really excited to see how it plays out this year, should be a special defense. The trade up for Jaire last year was genius, if Savage has anything near that type of impact, look out. Lots of quality front seven players to rotate in and wear down offensive linemen and get pressure.

 Hoped we would add another WR, but you can't have it all when you're paying one of the most expensive QB's and drafts don't fall as planned. Just glad Parris Campbell didn't go in the NFC North. Sounds like the rookies from last year are working really hard, I really hope they reach their potential. MM's offense was hard on young players, hopefully MLF's is a bit more friendly. They want to run the ball, so the slot looks to be a rotational position between Adams, TE's and big bully WR's for blocking. Should be a good system with safeties staying back because of Rodgers and confusing for young players on the opposing defense.

 Will be very interesting to see who shines in the new blocking schemes on the O-Line. Think Jenkins could probably start at RG if needed.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 07:16:34 PM by SET4YRS »

Online B

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2019, 10:21:45 PM »
Odell Beckham Jr's 4.43 was the 7th fastest at the combine
DeAndre Hopkins 4.57
Michael Thomas 4.57
Keenan Allen 4.71
Davante  Adams 4.57
A.J. Green, Bengals 4.5

Once again, at 6'5" Equanimeous St. Brown's 4.48 stacks up quite well
« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 10:24:38 PM by B »
The Green Bay Packers never lost a football game.
They just ran out of time.
-Vince Lombardi

Online B

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2019, 10:26:14 PM »
Odell Beckham Jr's 4.43 was the 7th fastest at the combine
DeAndre Hopkins 4.57
Michael Thomas 4.57
Keenan Allen 4.71
Davante  Adams 4.56
A.J. Green, Bengals 4.5

Once again, at 6'5" Equanimeous St. Brown's 4.48 stacks up quite well
The Green Bay Packers never lost a football game.
They just ran out of time.
-Vince Lombardi

Offline Hands

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2019, 06:43:35 AM »
I hate how bad the Packer's defense performed over the past few years. Waiting for Perry to get healthy, HHCD to get back to being a solid safety, CMIII getting back to dominating as a pass rusher, for the CB's to start covering better. They never did and we are seeing what many were seeing for years...Green Bay didn't have talent in the defense except for a player or two.
That was OK, because Rodgers was still the QB and he can erase that need....not really.

So responding to the subject, Gutsy had to improve the defense. Pettine and Capers before him couldn't make a NFL quality defense out of 2nd to 4th tiered players. The last two seasons Gutsy has tried to improve the team when and where the opportunities have arose. Last year, the CBs and WRs were strengthen. Everyone expected the DBs to improve, but seriously how many of us felt that the WR corp would get that kind of production from that group of rookies? Last year, the "draft experts" had ESB going in the second or third round. Look where Green Bay took him. MVS was a fast receiver....so what? How many fast receivers are now serving hamburgers at a fast food store, or doing landscape work? My point is Gutsy turned around two different position groups with the draft. This year he turned around the OLBs/Edge, Safeties, and the Oline.

Will the Packers play better defense right away? I think they will because you have the vets mixed with the 2nd year improvement guys and rookies adding their talents to the mix. Will the Packer's play better offense this year? Yes, because Rodgers is healthy, the Oline will be stronger, and the 2nd year leap with the WRs.

Just to be clear...this isn't the best team in the NFL, but they will compete every game and that defense will strangle teams trying to make come-backs in the 4th qtr unlike years past.
In the land of the blind.....the one eye man is king!

Offline dannobanano

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2019, 06:54:05 AM »
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robreischel/2019/04/29/the-green-bay-packers-defense-looks-like-a-top-10-outfit/#31b42ee82631

"I’m excited about Mike Pettine and the second-year guys we have in his system, but with the additions we’ve made I think we’re very optimistic about what these guys can do.”
Pettine has always liked players that can excel from different spots on the field. He wants guys that can shine in multiple roles.
Suddenly, with the free agent additions and a draft that leaned to the defensive side, Pettine has those people.
“I know you guys watched us last year,” Gutekunst said. “Mike’s big on moving pieces and stuff like that and I thought we had to get a lot more pieces for him to move around.
“They’re going to have to come together and there’s a lot of timing involved in it and different kinds of things, but I feel much better now than I did previously.”

Online craig

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2019, 07:23:24 AM »
..."I’m excited about Mike Pettine and the second-year guys we have in his system....”
Pettine has always liked players that can excel from different spots on the field. He wants guys that can shine in multiple roles....
“I know you guys watched us last year,” Gutekunst said. “Mike’s big on moving pieces and stuff like that and I thought we had to get a lot more pieces for him to move around."

Many references to Pettine and his system.  Sometimes even if an old assistant coach stays under a new head coach for the first year, that isn't always a long-term thing.  Maybe the two don't click; maybe the head coach wants his own guy, or wants a guy with a different philosophy, or whatever.  Maybe the assistant coach wants to work under somebody else, or whatever. 

But man, it sure seems like Gute and the scouts were very much drafting for Pettine, and assume he's going to be a long-term fixture. 

I like that.  Pettine seems smart and capable.  And he seems like a good man.  MLF does too, so I'm encouraged that Gute, MLF, and Pettine all seem to be in sync, and to respect and trust each other.  Seems very healthy. 

I also think some consistency of scheme, and of personnel with scheme, seems healthy and promising. 

Partly I think that speaks to Pettine.  A capable guy who's been a head coach, but who isn't aspiring to return to that role.  **IF** he was ambitious to get a head coaching opportunity, you might not be able to plan on him being around for a while.  Think Pettine is unusual, and I admire him for it, for loving what he does without aspiring to become head coach. 

Online craig

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2019, 07:39:03 AM »
..
DeAndre Hopkins 4.57
Michael Thomas 4.57
Keenan Allen 4.71
Davante  Adams 4.57
A.J. Green, Bengals 4.5

Once again, at 6'5" Equanimeous St. Brown's 4.48 stacks up quite well

Yes, exactly.  A lot of tall, long guys who are really good without having average or plus speed (for a WR.)  Like I said, he's average... relative to WR.  He's above average..... relative to WR of his height or close.

And I think we all get the obvious:  speed is only one component, of many, that factor into good NFL play.  Both as a WR, as a RB, as a TE, or as a defensive player.  Every team has UDFA receivers in camp with faster times than Davante and Keenan Allen.  If it was all about speed, Davante wouldn't be a star. 

Each of those guys you list with the below-average speed has other qualities that are really good, and that enable them to excel. 

Online craig

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2019, 07:43:56 AM »
I'm sure hoping that proves true with ESB as well.  I do think it's possible.  He does NOT seem to have the shiftiness that Adams has, to my amateur eyeball.  But my subjective amateur eyeball suggests that he does have really, really good hands, hands that could enable him to make a whole lot of difficult catches.  And my subjective optimistic amateur eyeball also suggests that he's got really good body control, body balance, coordination.  There have also been stories of photographic memory and mental capacity.  So I'm really hopeful that those qualities, combined with his size and average-for-WR-speed-but-plus-speed-for-6'5", will enable him to emerge as a high-end NFL receiver, a #1 or #2 type guy. 

We'll see whether Rodgers is the right guy for that?  I think length-height-hands are somewhat best matched with QB's who are more touch and accuracy than velocity, and who are comfortable with throwing high.  Brees and Brady aren't throwing rockets, so a coordinated receiver has a little more time to block out and use the body balance to make the catch.  And they are good with throwing high to let tall guys go get it.  Rodgers is faster and less accurate, and to my amateur view has never loved throwing high, or using the middle of the field.  So maybe not the ideal, perfect match for ESB's skillset? 

But hopefully mutual trust/respect will develop, and MLF will be able to scheme things to take max advantage of both of their skillsets.  ESB emerging as a consistent, steady, well-used target would be invaluable, if it happened. 

Offline RT

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2019, 07:55:42 AM »
..."I’m excited about Mike Pettine and the second-year guys we have in his system....”
Pettine has always liked players that can excel from different spots on the field. He wants guys that can shine in multiple roles....
“I know you guys watched us last year,” Gutekunst said. “Mike’s big on moving pieces and stuff like that and I thought we had to get a lot more pieces for him to move around."

Many references to Pettine and his system.  Sometimes even if an old assistant coach stays under a new head coach for the first year, that isn't always a long-term thing.  Maybe the two don't click; maybe the head coach wants his own guy, or wants a guy with a different philosophy, or whatever.  Maybe the assistant coach wants to work under somebody else, or whatever. 

But man, it sure seems like Gute and the scouts were very much drafting for Pettine, and assume he's going to be a long-term fixture. 

I like that.  Pettine seems smart and capable.  And he seems like a good man.  MLF does too, so I'm encouraged that Gute, MLF, and Pettine all seem to be in sync, and to respect and trust each other.  Seems very healthy. 

I also think some consistency of scheme, and of personnel with scheme, seems healthy and promising. 

Partly I think that speaks to Pettine.  A capable guy who's been a head coach, but who isn't aspiring to return to that role.  **IF** he was ambitious to get a head coaching opportunity, you might not be able to plan on him being around for a while.  Think Pettine is unusual, and I admire him for it, for loving what he does without aspiring to become head coach.

Their should be a bit of caution here. The Packers are putting a ton of resources into getting 'Pettine type guys' and if the Packers have a vastly improved defense the coming season, their is probably a good chance Pettine is a strong candidate for a head coaching job. And the Packers just put 118M in a pair of run stopping EDGE players that are not great rushers of the passer.

Yes, I have heard all the lip service about how he is happy being a DC and been there done that as a HC, but their is not a single high end competitor on the planet that failed at something and is just fine with it. The failing as a HC is eating at his soul and regardless of his being the good Lieutenant now, if the chance to become the commanding General again come along he will take it in a heartbeat. Does the next DC have a new type of player he likes? He will without a doubt have guys he prefers that are different than Pettine does. Does he want more edge pressure, more of a speed rushing type? Less man and more zone coverage, now a different CB type.

Their is a reason a GM should be drafting the BPA and not just catering to a coach. A year from now he may well wish he had.   

Offline Brandon2348

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Re: Now that free agency and the draft is over, what have we learned
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2019, 09:52:13 AM »
As OneTwoSixFive mentioned bellow we have three young WRs drafted last year that need to be given a another year to see if they show  better production. We also have a new TE that should be able to make some contribution this year. Sternberger supposedly is a smooth accurate route runner, we know Rodgers places a great amount of stock in his receivers running precise routes.

If they need better production from the receiving corps going into next year, look for them to draft a higher round WR next year.

The Packer have some young talent at WR but lack PREMIUM TALENT there. They once again completely overlooked the position in this off season thus far.  Barring some trade we have what we have.  They have gotten away from drafting receivers in the second round and have used day 3 to stock the shelves which has caused an overall regression at the position.  This offense IMO is not set up for a 16 game season to be successful and last year flashed that.  La'Fleur could help with his simpler schemes but at least one of the younger guys is going to have a huge leap and surprise us for success.

There were guys there for the picking in round 2 and the Packers could not capitalize and maneuver up because of the trade for Savage. Overall not upgrading us at this position and giving Rodgers the talent he deserves around him could lead to a rough 2019 is my opinon.