July 15, 2019, 07:57:29 PM

Author Topic: Position look: RB  (Read 2276 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dannobanano

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5160
  • Karma: +38/-2
Re: Position look: RB
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2019, 09:44:01 AM »
Packers RB receptions 2018:

Jamaal Williams 27
Aaron Jones 26
Ty Montgomery 15
Kapri Bibbs 3

Total 71

Titans RB receptions 2018:

Dion Lewis 59
Derrick Henry 15

Total 74

Not buying the big difference until I actually see it, danno. It may sound good that MLF is going to make Rodgers make those throws, but Rodgers will have opinions to get out of those plays. We will see soon enough the end results.

Not debating the number of receptions to RB's.

The gist of my point was regarding how many of the RB receptions, when comparing the Titans and Packers numbers, can be attributed to the RB's being the primary target as opposed to being a check down option.

My contention is that the RB's in MLF's offense will be primary targets more often than they have been in more recent Green Bay offenses. Green Bay could be moving more towards a horizontal (more traditional west coast) offense as opposed to being more vertical as they had become over the last several years. Doing so puts the ball in playmakers hands, like Jones, and let's them get YAC as opposed to forcing the ball down the field in a vertical passing game.

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/film-study-lafleurs-playbook-swing-pass-207



Offline RT

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3403
  • Karma: +59/-17
Re: Position look: RB
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2019, 10:44:37 AM »
Thanks for sharing danno.

I have been watching much of the breakdown of MLF's offense that people have been putting out there and personally am not overly impressed. I don't think any of what he does is cutting edge and is only a slit spinoff of what many others are already doing including MM's offense. The highlighted swing pass in the link is only a slit variation of the same play that MM would run with Randall Cobb and others. In this case the ball go's to a RB with 2 WR's acting as lead blockers, Packers fans have seen that play a 1000 times already.   

Online craig

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3813
  • Karma: +21/-4
Re: Position look: RB
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2019, 12:21:46 PM »
craig, I think it is less a product of Rodgers lacking the skill "wasn't good at it" as it is that he wasn't very patient with it. I think in the last several years Aaron got addicted to the big dramatic throw. ...

For what its worth, in 2007 with Favre as his QB, running back receiving stats were as follows:
TOTAL 122 targets, 95 rec. for 603 yds

In 2008, Aaron's first as a starter, running back stats were:
TOTAL 81 targets, 65 rec. for 412 yds.

In 2010, when the Packers won the Super Bowl:   
TOTAL 81 targets, 67 rec. for 519 yds.

Last season, 2018:
TOTAL 99 targets, 68 rec. 586 yds,

Thanks for numbers, B and Danno.  I'm not sure what to conclude? 
1.  That Aaron threw 20% more often to backs in 2018 than in his early seasons, I'm not quite sure how that affirms that his patience with it has changed, or that he's gotten addicted to big dramatic throws?  Both his throws and the yardage gained are higher 2018 than they were in 2008 or 2010.  (Completion percentage is lower, of course
2.  danno's numbers show MLF's backs caught 74 passes, and Packers caught 71.  I'm not sure i see any meaningful or impactful difference there.  I get the notion that perhaps getting to approximately the same numbers may have come in different ways, perhaps a higher fraction the Titan's 74 were intentional, and a higher fraction of the Packers 71 were "checkdown". 

But if we end up in the 70-75 range again, I'm not sure how I see either that, or apportioning them somewhat differently between intended-versus-checkdown, is going to dramatically improve the offensive efficiency?  Am I missing something? 

Online craig

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3813
  • Karma: +21/-4
Re: Position look: RB
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2019, 12:35:12 PM »
Not sure I'm seeing a lot of hope for some of you guys for the offense being championship caliber.  RT has the QB "resenting" certain passes.  Bruce has the QB "addicted".  I have the QB throwing balls to RB's that are "rockets" and lack "touch".  I've questioned the QB's recent accuracy on throws at all levels, whether short to RB's, deep balls, or just in-between throws.  All three of danno, Bruce, and RT seem to find fault with the QB's decision-making.  Bruce has the QB not throwing to open receivers underneath. 

Seems to me that I'm seeing a lot of doubts regarding the Packers QB play, including both decision-making and accuracy.  Of all the things that are going to impact the Packers season, none is more crucial than getting really, really high-level play from the QB. 

*IF* the QB plays at an elite level, I think the o-line, the pass-protection, the run-blocking, the running backs, the tight ends, and the young wide receivers, I think that whole offensive group has a chance to play really well TOGETHER, and to be score enough to be a playoff team, perhaps even a SB-possibility, if the defense ends up being really good too. 

But I don't think the surrounding talent on offense is so superlative that the offense is going to really excel, **IF** the QB is not executing and making decisions at a high level, and throwing with great accuracy. 

Rodgers is one member of a 53-man roster.  But I don't think it can be overstated how critical it is that he be performing at a really high, and consistently high, level. 

Offline B

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4265
  • Karma: +16/-8
Re: Position look: RB
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2019, 01:59:12 PM »
Interesting observations craig.

I'm actually quite optimistic that the offense can be more effective and efficient with the Zone running game and the passing game being built off meaningful play-action -- with the very real threat of a run.

I think it will help the offense have more Rhythm, and I actually think it will be mutually beneficial with a more athletic and dynamic defense 2019.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 01:59:59 PM by B »
The Green Bay Packers never lost a football game.
They just ran out of time.
-Vince Lombardi

Offline dannobanano

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5160
  • Karma: +38/-2
Re: Position look: RB
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2019, 02:15:05 PM »
Interesting observations craig.

I'm actually quite optimistic that the offense can be more effective and efficient with the Zone running game and the passing game being built off meaningful play-action -- with the very real threat of a run.

I think it will help the offense have more Rhythm, and I actually think it will be mutually beneficial with a more athletic and dynamic defense 2019.

I agree B. I've read from multiple sources that one of the things that will benefit the offense this year will be a play-caller that will get Rodgers into a rhythm. That seemed to be something that was hard to find the last few year, for whatever the reason.

An improved OL, a realistic threat of a running attack, a more effective PA passing, and an emphasis on building a rhythm on offense will go a long way to making the offense much better this year.

Online craig

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3813
  • Karma: +21/-4
Re: Position look: RB
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2019, 03:21:49 PM »
Interesting observations craig.

I'm actually quite optimistic that the offense can be more effective and efficient with the Zone running game and the passing game being built off meaningful play-action -- with the very real threat of a run.

I think it will help the offense have more Rhythm, and I actually think it will be mutually beneficial with a more athletic and dynamic defense 2019.

I agree B. I've read from multiple sources that one of the things that will benefit the offense this year will be a play-caller that will get Rodgers into a rhythm. That seemed to be something that was hard to find the last few year, for whatever the reason.

An improved OL, a realistic threat of a running attack, a more effective PA passing, and an emphasis on building a rhythm on offense will go a long way to making the offense much better this year.

I love the concept, and agree that the offense never seemed to sustain a rhythm, even within a single game much less over a stretch of games. 

But I wonder if that will actually happen.  I sure hope it does, and hope springs eternal.  But I wonder how much the MLF-system is going to help with that?   I guess we'll wait and see.  I'll believe it if I see it; I'm probably a little hesitant for now. 

I hope the new staff is able to coach up some easy open receivers and some easy completions for Rodgers.  I'm a believe that for most QB's, and Aaron especially, the best way to establish some "rhythm" is to get some volume of throws.  Sometimes you sit for a week, you come out all adrenalined up, and the first throw or two can be a little wild.  Sometimes you sit on the bench during a long possession for the opponent, and first throw back on the field can again be a little wild. 

Bhe best way for rhythm is to pile up some completions.  1-2-3-punt possessions don't do that.  Really difficult throws don't either.  I think somehow getting some easier completions and being able to sequence some 1st downs is the key to getting the QB into a groove, into an accuracy rhythm.  And since the running lives off of respect for the passing game, I think QB rhythm is crucial to overall rhythm. 

The common assumption is that running a lot helps the passing game.  In some ways yes.  But if the QB isn't getting many throws, I think it's harder to find and to sustain a passing rhythm.  3rd-and-6 plays where the pass-rush is on don't help, either.  So I hope all the run stuff doesn't run-run our way into lots of 3rd-and-6. 

I wonder how crucial O-line help will be, and whether Billy Turner is good or not?  Seems like everything is so much easier, rhythm-wise, **IF** the QB trusts his line, and **IF** running plays are gaining good yardage and really stressing the defense, as opposed to giving them some free downs and walking right into the 3rd-down situations that they want.  Coordinators know the weak spots, so I think they attacked the RG spot pretty often last year.  Having an o-line with no weak spots might really help for rhythm and consistency. 

Offline dannobanano

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5160
  • Karma: +38/-2
Re: Position look: RB
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2019, 04:50:41 PM »
  I hope the new staff is able to coach up some easy open receivers and some easy completions for Rodgers.  I'm a believe that for most QB's, and Aaron especially, the best way to establish some "rhythm" is to get some volume of throws.  Sometimes you sit for a week, you come out all adrenalined up, and the first throw or two can be a little wild.  Sometimes you sit on the bench during a long possession for the opponent, and first throw back on the field can again be a little wild.

Bhe best way for rhythm is to pile up some completions.  1-2-3-punt possessions don't do that.  Really difficult throws don't either.  I think somehow getting some easier completions and being able to sequence some 1st downs is the key to getting the QB into a groove, into an accuracy rhythm.  And since the running lives off of respect for the passing game, I think QB rhythm is crucial to overall rhythm. 

The common assumption is that running a lot helps the passing game.  In some ways yes.  But if the QB isn't getting many throws, I think it's harder to find and to sustain a passing rhythm.  3rd-and-6 plays where the pass-rush is on don't help, either.  So I hope all the run stuff doesn't run-run our way into lots of 3rd-and-6. 

I wonder how crucial O-line help will be, and whether Billy Turner is good or not?  Seems like everything is so much easier, rhythm-wise, **IF** the QB trusts his line, and **IF** running plays are gaining good yardage and really stressing the defense, as opposed to giving them some free downs and walking right into the 3rd-down situations that they want.  Coordinators know the weak spots, so I think they attacked the RG spot pretty often last year.  Having an o-line with no weak spots might really help for rhythm and consistency.

Best way to cure this problem is to give your QB shorter passes that he is comfortable with and likely to have a higher % chance to complete, rather than pushing it 20-30 yds down the field. Short, quick stuff that gets the QB past that adrenaline rush.

Calling vertical throws too much makes the passing offense predictable and easy to defense. How many times did we hear from other teams that they pretty much knew what kind of pass play was coming? Quick, short/shallow, crossing, slants etc. The defense can't sit back and protect deep. Keeping it mixed up between short, intermediate, vertical, AND runs doesn't let the defense get comfy in thinking they know whats coming next. Keeping them on their heels is what will make the offense more effective.

What we may see a little more of is back to a Holmgren style WCO, where he used the short pass to RB's, TE's, and WR's to set up the run. Time will tell, but I get the feeling this offense will be more designed to move the chains rather than hit the home run. #1) you control the clock with run and short pass. #2) The longer your offense is on the field, the more you tire out the opposing defense. #3) By accomplishing #1 & #2, you have a rested and fresh defense to attack the opposing offense.

While there is still reason for apprehension of the OL, they are (on paper) way-way ahead of where they were last year at this time.

Offline OneTwoSixFive

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2340
  • Karma: +15/-10
Re: Position look: RB
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2019, 09:40:20 AM »


Jamaal Williams looking relaxed and enjoying life.



.........and here is Aaron Jones.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 09:46:06 AM by OneTwoSixFive »
(ricky) "Personally, I'm putting this in a box, driving a stake through its heart, firing a silver bullet into its (empty) head, nailing it shut, loading it into a rocket and firing it into the sun. "

(Pink Floyd) "Set the controls for the heart of the sun"

Offline RT

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3403
  • Karma: +59/-17
Re: Position look: RB
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2019, 05:52:16 AM »
In Aaron Jones first few years their were times that I got the feeling that he was not the most professional individual on the team, sounds like he may be taking his job a little more seriously this year.

These are some notes from a Chris Havel story.

Jones, who has failed to finish each of his first two NFL seasons because of injuries, arrived in tip-top shape. He believes it will increase his durability and ultimately his production.

His 5.47 yards-per-carry average was tops in the NFL. But he only had 133 carries in 12 games. He missed the first two games of 2018 to a suspension. He missed the last two games to injury.

In hopes of upping his game, and improving his health, Jones dramatically altered his diet. He cut out the candy and replaced it with quinoa.
“I was big into candy,” Jones told reporters. “I’ll turn and see candy and I’m like, ‘Man, I want that.’ But I know how I feel in my body so that’s a big thing. I’ve been eating very clean – chicken, rice, sweet potatoes, steak, quinoa, things like that – just very clean.”
Jones said he’s always liked good food.
“It was just hard to put the candy down,” he said.

Jones, who weighs 205, reduced his body fat from 11 percent to 5.3 percent while maintaining his weight.

Meantime, Williams dropped his body fat while holding tight at a lean 218 pounds. He said it will increase his agility and should make him more explosive.

Offline RT

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3403
  • Karma: +59/-17
Re: Position look: RB
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2019, 09:02:48 AM »

 
Andy Herman


 
@SconnieSports
 38m
38 minutes ago
 
 
More
Watching 2018 Titans film last night, reviewing how they targeted their RBs. Couldn’t find any passes over 8 yards.

Sure enough per @PFF the Titans didn’t attempt a single pass to a RB over 10 yards.

Rams 2017 (LaFleur) only attempted 1, Jaguars 2018 (Hackett) only attempted 3.

The creative passing game with the RB's may be a false narrative.

Online craig

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3813
  • Karma: +21/-4
Re: Position look: RB
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2019, 09:14:16 AM »
...The creative passing game with the RB's may be a false narrative.

Thanks. 

I think there may be several other false narratives going around....

Offline dannobanano

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5160
  • Karma: +38/-2
Re: Position look: RB
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2019, 10:01:40 AM »

 
Andy Herman


 
@SconnieSports
 38m
38 minutes ago
 
 
More
Watching 2018 Titans film last night, reviewing how they targeted their RBs. Couldn’t find any passes over 8 yards.

Sure enough per @PFF the Titans didn’t attempt a single pass to a RB over 10 yards.

Rams 2017 (LaFleur) only attempted 1, Jaguars 2018 (Hackett) only attempted 3.

The creative passing game with the RB's may be a false narrative.

I'm not sure it's a false narrative. It may just be that the media/fans misunderstood what the narrative intent was.

From what I have read this off season is that the intention of the passing game to the RB's was two fold. (1) short quick passes and then let them get YAC in space, and (2) to use PA to running backs towards the perimeter to create a vacuum over the middle for TE's/Slot WR's to make the most of.


Case in point...…………

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/film-study-lafleurs-playbook-delay-middle-613



JMHO, but I think we will see passes to the RB's limited to quick flat passes, drag/underneath routes, screen plays, and an infrequent wheel route.

The one RB position that could be more of an intermediate vertical route type would be the FB/H-Back, especially from the slot.

Right now Vitale fits that role, but he could get beat out in camp by another player too.

Offline RT

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3403
  • Karma: +59/-17
Re: Position look: RB
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2019, 02:03:44 PM »
This is a little surprising to me.

The Packers have cut veteran RB Kapri Bibbs. I actually thought we might see Tra Carson cut because he was not active during the OTA's and we were getting a few positive reviews about Bibbs.

Guessing we will see a claim or signing in the next day or two.

Or the Josh Jones for Duke Johnson trade that I do not think is a good idea, but something is up.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 02:09:20 PM by RT »

Offline RT

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3403
  • Karma: +59/-17
Re: Position look: RB
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2019, 02:21:56 PM »
Looking at yesterdays waiver wire, RB James Williams was waived by the Chiefs and he is a very similar RB to Bibbs at 300K a year less. Just brainstorming here.

The Lions also released blocking TE Michael Roberts and the Bills released TE Mik'Quan Dean who the Packers showed interest in the pre draft process.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 02:26:24 PM by RT »