August 22, 2019, 07:09:15 PM

Author Topic: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?  (Read 5157 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline marklawrence

  • Administrator
  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3048
  • Karma: +48/-13
Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2019, 05:32:03 PM »
If I was the gm of another team I would note he's afraid of competition.

He's one injury away from starting even in the worst case.

I think this is chicken shut. (That's past tense)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 05:32:56 PM by marklawrence »
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.” -- John F. Kennedy.

Online craig

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3870
  • Karma: +22/-4
Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2019, 06:13:29 PM »
I agree craig... but Josh is hardly alone in employing this tactic. And frankly, as a young player in a first contract he does not have many other feathers in his quiver to use.....

I probably don't follow the rest of the league enough to understand.  But I don't believe there is any trade interest in Jones.  Maybe, maybe you could get a conditional 7th rounder from somebody, but I doubt that, and I don't see how that would at all serve the Packers interests. 

So, I basically see this as trying to force his release. 

Are there actually lots of young NFL players trying to get released? 

I think most young NFL players are intense competitors trying win roster spots and hold roster spots; and to win snaps and playing roles, not to give them up.  So trying to get released just seems really counter-cultural. 

I won't think all that many rookie-contract guys would be trying to use the feathers in their quiver to get released? 


Offline ricky

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6003
  • Karma: +45/-20
Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2019, 07:20:03 PM »
 goodpost

craig, you seem to grasp the situation very well. Jones wants out? Big deal. There are at least 25-30 guys who are going to end up being cut by the Packers. Probably even more, once the final cuts are made. Guys who made the initial cut then have to sweat out being replaced by a guy another team jettisoned. And then they have to hope they make it through the entire season, either on the PS or the bottom of the regular roster. Get hurt? You're probably gone with either an injury settlement or will be gone for another body next year. These guys are not going to be demanding trades. And Jones is in that group. If he gets cut, chances are he'll be picked up by someone else. But will the team that claims him keep him all year? Or for the next two years? His cap hit is negligible ($609,424). Next year, it would be half that, assuming he actually makes the team.
"My hopes are not always realized, but I always hope." Ovid

Offline B

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4273
  • Karma: +16/-8
Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2019, 08:57:11 PM »
It is okay that we have differing opinions. In answer to your question, plenty of players would like to get free of their rookie contracts. This is also a tactic that Drew Rosenhaus has attempted multiple times through the years. The NFL has tried hard to keep this door shut, especially with rookie contracts. You don't see it as problematic, I do, and so too has the NFL traditionally.

I hear that you guys don't see him as having value. I see a young guy who finished 5th on the team in tackles despite having limited opportunities. I also see him as having big upside possibilities. Safety is often a position that takes guys time to develop in the NFL.

IMO the Packers would not only take a $609,424 CAP hit with his release, they would have a less talented roster. It is far from make or break territory, but it is a very discouraging sign for a team in transition.



The Green Bay Packers never lost a football game.
They just ran out of time.
-Vince Lombardi

Online craig

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3870
  • Karma: +22/-4
Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2019, 09:36:55 PM »
Thanks, Bruce.  I hadn't realized it was common for agents and players to try to get released in order to get an early shot at free agency.  Thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't really considered that.  (It does seem so counter-cultural to me, but agents aren't players, and players often trust their agents to think all things business for them.) 

I think you maybe misunderstood my view on the player.  I do think he has a chance to stick in the league, and to become variably useful, hopefully for us.  He did have really excellent combine measurables, when he knew where the cones were and knew which was was up.  And he's clearly a fast, pretty athletic player, and I think he likes to play and hit and tackle and stuff.  It's not like he's soft, or doesn't like to play the game and mix it up or anything like that. 

Maybe he'll grow into a decent coverage guy, or maybe he'll never be excellent for coverage but as a tackler and chaser and special teams guy he'll end up becoming increasingly useful.  Which is exactly why I don't think it makes any conceivable sense for the Packers to release him.  And which is exactly why I don't think it makes sense for the Packers to trade him. 

While he has some NFL potential, I don't think teams around the league are hot to acquire him, or will offer anything that's of comparable value.  I think his potential value to us is real, and is potentially much higher than what we might hope to get in return.  (Teams don't trade much for a guy in his situation; a conditional 7th?  A guaranteed 7th?  Maybe a conditional 6th?)  It's not like you're going to get a 3rd or 4th round pick for him. 

I believe I read that last year, over the last 10 games, he was like 6th on the team in defensive snaps.  So he was playing plenty, and got a good share of tackles.  Granted, after watching him get that really extended opportunity, management wasn't so fired up that they figured he was ready to be given a starting spot.  Instead they scouted and concluded that they should offer a big contract to Amos and trade a couple of 4th's to ensure they could get Savage. 

But I think he's got a chance to be a variably useful player. Maybe he'll start; Savage is just a rookie, who knows how long it might take for him to be ready.  They play scads of secondary guys, and any distinction between "safety" and "corner" is sometimes artificial.  So there may well be a variety of situations where Jones, and Amos, and Savage might all be playing.  Likewise the distinction between "safety" and "ILB" is sometimes artificial.  There may be a lot of snaps where Jones will play that sort of role.  And it's also possible that whatever Jones has been, that he might get smarter and better, given the safety learning curve, and his combine-king qualities. 

All of these are exactly reasons why the Packers are NOT going to release him, or trade him for peanuts. 

Which is why I think it's so dumb demand a trade (not going to happen, unless he's a randall....) or to be wishing for release.  That's not going to happen. 

So, if he's going to be with the Packers, he's best served to get as much practice as he can and become as good as he can, and to win roles.  Prove you're a better player than Burks or summers at the ILB/Safety spot.  Prove you're ready enough to start at a true safety spot, while Savage comes in as rookie.  Prove that you're a better option than Tramon or Jackson. 

You're not going to get free anyway.  But the best way to set yourself up for your NEXT contract is to play a lot and play well.  Skipping opportunities, to refine and improve your game, to gain experience and understanding, to impress coaches with your growth, to stay ahead of other guys who want to get those snaps, or to move past other guys and gain even more snaps, I don't see how that's business smart at all. 

Offline RT

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3489
  • Karma: +60/-17
Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2019, 04:18:37 AM »
You seem to have a good grasp of the situation craig. The only thing that I think is completely incorrect is the notion that this is something common that a player and agent do with a player on a first contract. The last and only player I can think of that did that on their first contract was Clinton Portis and he was a Pro Bowl RB who wanted a new contract and that was 2003.

He does have value to the Packers for all the reasons you have stated, but his self perception is soo much greater than reality that I have a feeling this may not end well. The Packers are in a bad spot because they really cannot give in or they open the door for every player that is slightly upset about something to walkout and ask for a trade or release. His proverbial ten cent head makes him unpredictable in how far he is willing to carry this out, but the Packers still hold all the top cards here. They probably just wait him out and fine him if he doesn't show up for mandatories and suspend him if shows up and is a problem. Like dealing with a child throwing a temper tantrum, be firm and remain the adult.     
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 04:19:40 AM by RT »

Offline dannobanano

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5228
  • Karma: +40/-2
Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2019, 06:11:10 AM »
Well said RT.

1) Josh Jones reveals his lack of maturity in dealing with adversity by making this kind of demand, and

2) Josh Jones needs to fire his agent for (a) allowing him to do this, or (b) being the one who suggested he do this.

Offline SET4YRS

  • All Pro
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
  • Karma: +18/-1
Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2019, 08:07:21 AM »
 That's too bad, another young player from that position group that may need a fresh start with a new team. Randall, HHCD, Brice and Whitehead were good players that were shipped off or let go. The back to back losing seasons and injuries must have caused a cancer in that position group. Jones has a big opportunity this year to showcase his skills. He hasn't shown much and it was evident last year he wasn't happy about Brice starting over his 2nd round draft status. Like Danno said, hopefully they get things ironed out, if he takes a 3rd year jump, he could be a nice moving piece for the defense. Lots of snaps to go around for the safeties.

Offline dannobanano

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5228
  • Karma: +40/-2
Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2019, 09:14:48 AM »
Just picked up a little nugget that was said by Tramon Williams, regarding Savage and Amos...……..

https://www.packers.com/news/darnell-savage-making-good-first-impression-on-packers-secondary

[Still a student of the game after 12 NFL seasons, Williams spends time every offseason scouting secondary trends – what makes the best units the best and what led to others falling short.
The conclusion Williams has drawn is it all goes back to football aptitude and intelligence. It’s no coincidence perhaps the best defenses Williams has played on featured players such as Charles Woodson, Al Harris and Collins.
“It just makes it easier to play when you got guys who understand the game,” Williams said. “You can do things that you’re not supposed to do. You can make plays. That’s one thing I always go back and study secondaries, and not just corners because a lot of teams have good corners but not everybody plays well. You try to see why they don’t play well or why this team is playing better or this.”]

As I read between the lines here, I get the feeling that Josh Jones is one of those guys who does not have the same football IQ that Amos and Savage happen to have.

Jones has a ton of athletic talent, but he falls short when it comes to the brain talent part of the equation.

Offline RT

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3489
  • Karma: +60/-17
Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2019, 11:16:50 AM »
I posted this earlier before this thread existed:

As a player in his first contract this is the closest thing to power. It is important to note that he is skipping voluntary OTA's - not holding out or missing mandatory mini-camp or practices.

I hope the Packers do not blink. Once management cracks open the door, other players under contract will see this as an effective way to force trades or releases. At worst Josh Jones is a valuable special teams player and depth at safety and nickel and dime MLB.

An unfortunate development early in a new coaching staffs reign.
[/i]

Possibly if the right price was offered. A release would need to include a return of change short of $610,000 in signing bonus dollars. But like I wrote earlier the Packers should be cautious about potentially opening Pandora's box.

I don't buy your argument. So, one player is apparently disgruntled and wants to be traded. If the team accomodates him, somehow this will lead to (A trickle? Stampede? Mass exodus?) more players demanding to be traded? Who and why? This is one individual, and not a very important player. An underperforming, very minor cog who has not shown any growth in ability or understanding. He had a year under Capers and a year under Pettine. And seemed to regress in Pettine's scheme. He has shown himself to be a coverage liabilty, and couldn't even outplay the recently departed Kentrell Brice. The Packers add a FA safety and draft another in the first round (after trading up, effectively sending three draft picks to get one guy), and Jones is supposed to believe he'll be given a bigger role in the defense? Let him go. Get something for him and call it a day. Jones was another mistake in a draft filled with under/nonperformers.

Here are the 10 picks the Packers made in the 2017 draft:
Round 2, pick 33: Kevin King, CB, Washington.
Round 2, pick 61: Josh Jones, S, NC State.
Round 3, pick 93: Montravius Adams, DT, Auburn.
Round 4, pick 108: Vince Biegel, OLB, Wisconsin.
Round 4, pick 134: Jamaal Williams, RB, BYU.
Round 5, pick 175: Deangelo Yancey, WR, Purdue.

This was a bad draft. King often injured; Jones an apparent bust; Adams hanging on by a thread; Biegel and Yancey gone. Williams is the only reliable contributor in this group.

I believe you are being a little hasty in calling this a bad draft. I don't know if you left Aaron Jones off by design, but they still have 5 players on the roster from a draft three drafts ago, that would be a positive and not a negative. If they keep and sign 2 of the 5 to 2nd contracts it was a good draft, 3 would be a great draft. Much is yet to be determined, but it is not out of the question that King, Adams and Aaron Jones end up playing their ways into a second contract with the Packers.   

Offline IBV

  • Second String
  • **
  • Posts: 57
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2019, 11:37:13 AM »
Could it be that this problem began to rear its ugly head last season , which is why Gutey took a safety early this year ?

Offline RT

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3489
  • Karma: +60/-17
Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2019, 11:55:20 AM »
Could it be that this problem began to rear its ugly head last season , which is why Gutey took a safety early this year ?

The Packers have known that Jones could be a problem child from the time they drafted him, I don't think anyone with the Packers are shocked by his actions. The drafting of Savage was to fill the need in Pettine's defense of a safety who could excel as a single high safety, Jones becomes a better player the closer he gets to the line of scrimmage. They may share the same position name, but they really don't play the same position.

Offline B

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4273
  • Karma: +16/-8
Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2019, 12:28:19 PM »
Everything I have heard until this off-season has been quite the opposite of a problem child. Yes, he has been highly competitive and was unhappy about not getting playing time when guys like Brice were clearly in over their heads and failing, but he seemed to channel that energy into making the most of his opportunities on special teams and as a box S/MLB.

Josh Jones at the April (pre-draft) voluntary mini-camp:

“The opportunity is there. It’s always there. I look at it as every day is an opportunity to improve mentally and physically. This is all about seizing what’s in front of me. I’m not thinking about the future. I’m in the present. I just chop wood each and every day and the rest will take care of itself.”
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 12:29:13 PM by B »
The Green Bay Packers never lost a football game.
They just ran out of time.
-Vince Lombardi

Offline ricky

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6003
  • Karma: +45/-20
Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2019, 01:29:57 PM »
I believe you are being a little hasty in calling this a bad draft. I don't know if you left Aaron Jones off by design, but they still have 5 players on the roster from a draft three drafts ago, that would be a positive and not a negative. If they keep and sign 2 of the 5 to 2nd contracts it was a good draft, 3 would be a great draft. Much is yet to be determined, but it is not out of the question that King, Adams and Aaron Jones end up playing their ways into a second contract with the Packers.   

Copied and pasted a google search. Who knew the internet was not always to be trusted?  ::) My bad- simply counting the players and realizing they didn't reach ten should have tipped me off. Sloppy on my part. Here is a total list of the 2017 draft:

Round 2, pick 33: Kevin King, CB, Washington
Round 2, pick 61: Josh Jones, S, NC State
Round 3, pick 93: Montravius Adams, DT, Auburn
Round 4, pick 108: Vince Biegel, OLB, Wisconsin
Round 4, pick 134: Jamaal Williams, RB, BYU
Round 5, pick 175: Deangelo Yancey, WR, Purdue
Round 5, pick 182: Aaron Jones, RB, UTEP
Round 6, pick 212: Kofi Amichia, T, South Florida
Round 7, pick 238: Devante Mays, RB, Utah State
Round 7, pick 247: Malachi Dupre, WR, LSU

Still not a barnburner, but Jones does make a difference. Though whether he has the size to be a bellwether back remains to be seen. Early experience would indicate he can't hold up over an entire season. So, instead of a "bad draft", how about "disappointing"? Anyway, back to the thread topic. Will there be a lot of players trying to force their way off the team if Jones is accomodated? After Mike McKenzie forced his way off the team, how many others followed suit? That was a starter who was unhappy, and he was traded to NO after a lot of drama. This seems to be more of a fan perception rather than reality.
"My hopes are not always realized, but I always hope." Ovid

Offline dannobanano

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5228
  • Karma: +40/-2
Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2019, 01:32:47 PM »
His weaknesses were apparent for all to see prior to GB drafting him.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/josh-jones?id=2558119

Needs to do better job of coming to balance as a tackler.
From zone coverage, can be a little slow to anticipate routes and squeeze the throwing windows.
Gets hyper-focused on quarterback and will lose track of his assignments.
Will bite on play-action bait and get drawn out of position.

They just haven't been able to (a) coach some of those bad habits out of him, or (b) he isn't very smart and/or has a low football IQ.