August 22, 2019, 08:01:07 PM

Author Topic: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?  (Read 5158 times)

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Offline dannobanano

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Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2019, 01:38:53 PM »
I believe you are being a little hasty in calling this a bad draft. I don't know if you left Aaron Jones off by design, but they still have 5 players on the roster from a draft three drafts ago, that would be a positive and not a negative. If they keep and sign 2 of the 5 to 2nd contracts it was a good draft, 3 would be a great draft. Much is yet to be determined, but it is not out of the question that King, Adams and Aaron Jones end up playing their ways into a second contract with the Packers.   

Copied and pasted a google search. Who knew the internet was not always to be trusted?  ::) My bad- simply counting the players and realizing they didn't reach ten should have tipped me off. Sloppy on my part. Here is a total list of the 2017 draft:

Round 2, pick 33: Kevin King, CB, Washington
Round 2, pick 61: Josh Jones, S, NC State
Round 3, pick 93: Montravius Adams, DT, Auburn
Round 4, pick 108: Vince Biegel, OLB, Wisconsin
Round 4, pick 134: Jamaal Williams, RB, BYU
Round 5, pick 175: Deangelo Yancey, WR, Purdue
Round 5, pick 182: Aaron Jones, RB, UTEP
Round 6, pick 212: Kofi Amichia, T, South Florida
Round 7, pick 238: Devante Mays, RB, Utah State
Round 7, pick 247: Malachi Dupre, WR, LSU

Still not a barnburner, but Jones does make a difference. Though whether he has the size to be a bellwether back remains to be seen. Early experience would indicate he can't hold up over an entire season. So, instead of a "bad draft", how about "disappointing"? Anyway, back to the thread topic. Will there be a lot of players trying to force their way off the team if Jones is accomodated? After Mike McKenzie forced his way off the team, how many others followed suit? That was a starter who was unhappy, and he was traded to NO after a lot of drama. This seems to be more of a fan perception rather than reality.

How about "Incomplete" and "TBD".

If King, Adams, Williams, and A-Jones all get 2nd contracts, that's a 40% success rate. That would be pretty could...………..if they get there.

Josh Jones is still on the team, last I checked. Let's see where it goes. Maybe the young man figures it out, maybe he doesn't. But until it's resolved, he's still a Packer.

It would be nice if Pettine could find a role for him that would maximize what he does best. (crossing fingers).

Online ricky

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Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2019, 02:52:25 PM »
[quote author=dannobanano link=topic=7829.msg195069#msg195069 date=155855753
Josh Jones is still on the team, last I checked. Let's see where it goes. Maybe the young man figures it out, maybe he doesn't. But until it's resolved, he's still a Packer.

It would be nice if Pettine could find a role for him that would maximize what he does best. (crossing fingers).
[/quote]

Totally agree on this point. Even if Jones tries the McKenzie "I'm injured" ploy, they simply put him on the PUP. If he could be repurposed as an extra LBer, he could well still be a valuable asset to the team. And Pettine seems to be pretty open to trying new things. This might be the time to see if the team can somehow work out a way to make disgruntled players gruntled. Not caving, but finding ways to make them more involved in games- IF they earn that time.

On the other hand, this article seems to synthesize all the takes on Jones here:

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/the-packers-dont-need-josh-jones-317
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 02:56:03 PM by ricky »
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Offline dannobanano

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Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2019, 03:16:14 PM »

Online craig

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Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2019, 04:04:28 PM »
Green seems to have a good opportunity.  And his size/physique seem bigger/stronger more NFL-legit than I'd originally expected when he was signed.  (Lists at below 6 feet and <200lb, but my recall is that he didn't look small at all, last year in exhibition or in the season games he played.  I think I've read (maybe on this board, beats me, or maybe on the packers website) some suggestion that he looks stronger and more cut than ever. 

Safeties 1 + 2 seem pretty well defined, but Green would seem to have an open opportunity to win some snaps in some packages, or to become next-man-up in case of injury. 

Heh heh, he's the kind of guy that you want a D+D program to turn into a legit NFL guy. 

Of course, probably also a good reminder for myself that usually UDFA guys are signed because they have pretty good measurables.  It's often the mental part and the decision-making that is more problematic than their SPARQ or whatever.  Green played a lot, I believe on the National Champtionship team that upset mighty NDSU for the FCS championship in 2016, and then lost to NDSU in a close game in the champsionship in 2017.  Sometimes talented guys on those stronger FCS teams get a LOT of game experience, more so than some of the bigger-name FBS teams who leave early, and play on such strong rosters that they don't play right away either.  Hopefully Raven is both good and actually is smart and experienced. 


Offline OneTwoSixFive

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Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2019, 01:09:14 AM »
.................Of course, probably also a good reminder for myself that usually UDFA guys are signed because they have pretty good measurables.  It's often the mental part and the decision-making that is more problematic than their SPARQ or whatever. 

While teams can and do put a lot of effort into divining a players mental makeup, it is the part that most often causes a player to fail once he is in the NFL (well, that and injury problems).

If a team knows and accepts that understanding a players mental makeup is very inexact, then drafting players with the best possible physical characteristics is a decent way of partially compensating for possible mental weaknesses. Player is 2/10ths of a second slow in diagnosing a play ? Answer, get a player fast enough to make up for the time lost. Just one of the reasons the Packers are so wedded to the idea of getting the highest RAS score players. Sadly the mental part of the game can often be big enough to overwhelm any physical advantage, as (so far) seems to be the case with Josh Jones, because at 6'2", 220lb, 4.41 40 speed, he surely has the physical part of it.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 01:12:51 AM by OneTwoSixFive »
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Offline B

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Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2019, 04:37:41 AM »
It is fascinating to me how easily writers and fans can fall into a trance and create a narrative about a player that does not match up to objective facts.

Josh Jones played multiple positions in 2018 and produced much more that folks seem to remember.

Total Tackles 2018

Player   TOTAL   SOLO   ASSIST   SCK   SFTY   F
1. B. Martinez   144   91   53   5      0
2. J Alexander   66   61   5   0.5      0
3.  Josh Jones 55   40   15   1      0
4. Kenny Clark  55   36   19   6      1
5. T Williams    54   40   14   0      0
6. Kentrell Brice 50   40   10   1      0
7.Josh Jackson 49   39   10   0   0   0
8. A. Morrison 48   27   21   1      0
9. Dean Lowry 44   31   13   3      1
10 C. Matthews 43   29   14   3.5      1
11. Kyler Fackrell 42   29   13   10.5      0
12. R. Gilbert 38   27   11   2.5      0

Total Snaps defense -- special team snaps
   
T. Williams      1059   99.53%   49   10.40%   
B. Martinez     1049   98.59%   72   15.29%
J Alexander     760   71.43%   72   15.29%   
C.Matthews     756   71.05%   5   1.06%   
Kenny Clark    720   67.67%   66   14.01%   
Josh Jackson   718   67.48%   190   40.34%   
Dean Lowry     697   65.51%   152   32.27%   
Kentrell Brice   646   60.71%   59   12.53%   
Kyler Fackrell   623   58.55%   243   51.59%   
Josh Jones       501   47.09%   169   35.88%   
R. Gilbert        486   45.68%   226   47.98%   

Several points that can be inferred from these objective numbers:
 ~~ there is a reason the Packers have not traded or cut Josh Jones
 ~~ Josh Jones is not some dummy who cannot learn the defense
 ~~ In fact JJ played multiple positions in multiple packages in 2018
 ~~ Josh Jones didn't languish on the bench, in fact he played a large number of snaps
 ~~ Josh Jones produced when he was on the field

Maybe I am the lone wolf here, but I think safety is one of the positions that takes the most time to learn at the Pro level and I believe Josh Jones, who is only 24 years old and is extremely physically talented, likely has a very bright professional future in the NFL
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 05:05:50 AM by B »
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Online craig

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Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2019, 08:21:31 AM »
It is fascinating to me how easily writers and fans can fall into a trance and create a narrative about a player that does not match up to objective facts.

Josh Jones played multiple positions in 2018 and produced much more that folks seem to remember.

Total Tackles 2018

Player   TOTAL   SOLO   ASSIST   SCK   SFTY   F
1. B. Martinez   144   91   53   5      0
2. J Alexander   66   61   5   0.5      0
3.  Josh Jones 55   40   15   1      0
.....

Several points that can be inferred from these objective numbers:
 ~~ there is a reason the Packers have not traded or cut Josh Jones
 ~~ Josh Jones is not some dummy who cannot learn the defense
 ~~ In fact JJ played multiple positions in multiple packages in 2018
 ~~ Josh Jones didn't languish on the bench, in fact he played a large number of snaps
 ~~ Josh Jones produced when he was on the field

Maybe I am the lone wolf here, but I think safety is one of the positions that takes the most time to learn at the Pro level and I believe Josh Jones, who is only 24 years old and is extremely physically talented, likely has a very bright professional future in the NFL

Note:  Don't take this as negative, or as targetted at JJ.  I don't get the game-film and re-watch tape.  I have no idea how the Packers analyze Jones play. 

Of the inferred points, I might infer them in a slightly more compressed way:
1.  Jones played a large number of snaps (and ST).
2.  Jones produced **tackles** when he was on the field. 

(The data Bruce listed didn't include PBU.  Hypothetically it might be desirable to break up the pass first; in which case you don't get a chance to tackle the pass-catcher?  Sometimes I thought HaHa for example got **too many** tackles because he played too soft, gave QB's too-easy targets and too-easy completions, and then HaHa recorded **too many** tackles?) 

Snaps and tackles are volume numbers that don't necessarily speak well to efficiency. 
1.  Losing teams as a whole play just as many snaps as winning teams. 
2.  And losing teams record just as many tackles, more or less, as winning teams. 
*Perhaps more, actually; perhaps a losing defense doesn't force punts and turn the ball over, and gives the opposing offenses more snaps resulting in more defensive tackles.  If a defense forces a 1-2-3-punt, the composite defense will record ≤3 tackles.  If a defense allows a 14-play TD drive, they will probably record ≥10 tackles within that drive.....

I'm not arguing that Jones wasn't an effective or efficient player.  I'm just arguing that analysis of efficiency/effectiveness probably requires deeper analysis than the volume numbers of snaps and tackles.  Snaps/tackles volume stats would otherwise look as good or maybe better for losing than winning defenses. 

I haven't analyzed Jones efficiency, I have no idea.  I'm pretty sure that Pettine and Simmons and those guys have; to what conclusion I don't know.  I've seen some website posters review game film.  PPF supposedly attempts to do so, and ranked Jones as reasonable average.  **IF** he was already average, as a young and non-optimized player, that might suggest good optimism that he might blossom into above average.  Hopefully so.  This is a prime window of opportunity for him to prove his capacity and to win a lot of snaps.  So as with Adams, his window of opportunity is wide open.  (I admit I don't see how skipping OTA's facilitates that desired improvement, though, or helps him to climb through that window of opportunity....) 


Offline dannobanano

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Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2019, 01:26:50 PM »
Josh Jones felt he needed to make a point, and he's doing that by staying away from "voluntary" participation in OTA's.

He's a young, and still developing, player with a lot of athletic talent and is still trying to find how he "fits" in this defense. But, he's missing valuable time with his team mates right now.

We can speculate all we want about the reason(s) for not showing up, but only Josh and his agent know for sure.

Maybe Gute has given Josh and his agent permission to "quietly" talk to other teams to assess if there's a trade value for him while off-season events are still voluntary.

If he doesn't show for mandatory events, then we will know there's a real problem.


Josh may be doing what he feels he has to do right now. But, JMHO, that he is doing so to his own detriment. He's missing important reps in the defensive installs, and he's opening the door for a player(s) like Raven Greene to get noticed.

Online Shinesman

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Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2019, 07:49:02 PM »
Maybe the browns want to replace jabrill with him and have both our safety mistakes. Come on Duke Johnson

Who's the other safety mistake?
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Online ricky

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Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2019, 09:06:00 PM »
Don’t look now Josh, but Raven Green hopes you stay away.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2019/05/29/rashan-gary-raven-greene-show-off-versatility-for-packers-defense/

One person's disgruntlement with their job is another person's opportunity. And (the devil makes me do this) perhaps the safety position will be Greene-r for the Packers with Raven being quoted after each game.
"My hopes are not always realized, but I always hope." Ovid

Offline dannobanano

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Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2019, 05:53:50 AM »
Don’t look now Josh, but Raven Green hopes you stay away.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2019/05/29/rashan-gary-raven-greene-show-off-versatility-for-packers-defense/

One person's disgruntlement with their job is another person's opportunity. And (the devil makes me do this) perhaps the safety position will be Greene-r for the Packers with Raven being quoted after each game.

ricky,

Did you just throw an Edgar Allen Poe reference in there?

Online craig

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Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2019, 06:06:51 AM »

Online ricky

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Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2019, 10:17:00 AM »
ricky,

Did you just throw an Edgar Allen Poe reference in there?

Will Josh Jones become "Greene" with envy? And, yes indeed. The Baltimore Bard himself.
"My hopes are not always realized, but I always hope." Ovid

Offline B

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Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2019, 07:23:30 AM »
Craig, I think you missed the point.

My post showing snaps and tackles was simply meant to dispel the narrative that Jones was some dolt who can't learn the defense and has no value. Tackles are a relevant stat because Jones learned and played multiple positions - including hybrid MLB. As for breaking up passes, Josh had more in his two seasons than starter Kendrell Brice did in 3.

I want to be clear, I think JJ is making a mistake working out in Florida instead of participating in VOLUNTARY OTA's. I suspect he looks at learning and playing multiple positions hurts his career development as a safety.

As Tramon Williams stated he understands his frustration, particularly when one considers bow much starter Kentrell Brice was an issue at safety. Brice missed 12 of his 57 total tackle attempts on the season and allowed a passer rating of 150.1 on 29 throws into his primary coverage.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 07:26:02 AM by B »
The Green Bay Packers never lost a football game.
They just ran out of time.
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Offline B

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Re: Josh Jones wants to be Traded?
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2019, 08:00:26 AM »
Hey, I love a undrafted free agent Cinderella story as much as the next guy and I think Raven Greene is a find. Having said that, at least when it comes to the hybrid MLB snaps let's get real:

Greene is 5'11, Jones is 6'2" - 3 inches taller
Greene weighs 197 LBS, Jones 220 - 23 LBS more
Greene's 40 is 4.56, Jones' is 4.41
Greene's speed score is 91.1, Jones' is 116.3 - +25.2
Greene's burst score is 117, Jones' is 129.8 - +12.8
Greene benched 225×14, Jones benched 225×20

I like both players, and hope both can contribute to a much more athletic, revived defense in 2019.
The Green Bay Packers never lost a football game.
They just ran out of time.
-Vince Lombardi