October 27, 2020, 11:50:24 AM

Author Topic: Protests during the National Anthem  (Read 4949 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Premontre1969

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 91
  • Karma: +5/-9
Protests during the National Anthem
« on: May 29, 2020, 05:56:22 PM »
 I hate to see anyone take advantage of their position on the field to make a personal protest during the National Anthem. This is a time we respect our flag and what it represents; our constitution, freedom and justice for all. Many have given their lives to uphold the honor of our flag.

 That’s not to diminish the righteous cause of calling attention to police brutality against the black community. What just happened in Minneapolis underscores the focus that begs to be brought on this societal issue.

When we see a video of a policeman killing a man by pinning him with a knee to the neck we know that reflects a much more pervasive reality. Policemen have extraordinary power to enforce the law. While I believe that the vast majority of police are judicious and careful in exercising that power it is human nature that this power has great potential for abuse. Only through careful selection of officers and a high degree of recurrent training can we manage our police force in the appropriate use of those extraordinary powers.
 
We’ve all experienced or witnessed racial prejudice. In every walk of life we’ve experienced people with tender egos who don’t react well to a challenge. When those people become police officers there is an increased potential for abuse of power. We must demand well managed police departments with robust selection, training and supervision to assure and refine a pure attitude to protect and serve the public.

 But are we so powerless to move a righteous issue that we, effectively, cheap shot our constitution? Let me hear players address this issue in their press conference, interviews or on a radio show. They have ample opportunities to advance and highlight the issue and I hope that they do. But please do not belittle the moment we honor the very thing that stands for our guiding principles.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 06:37:46 PM by Premontre1969 »

Online ricky

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7352
  • Karma: +116/-114
Re: Protests during the National Anthem
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2020, 11:12:23 PM »
So, a police officer kneeling on someone's neck for almost nine minutes, killing him, is worse than taking a knee during the anthem to protest actions like these?
"My hopes are not always realized, but I always hope." Ovid

Offline Premontre1969

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 91
  • Karma: +5/-9
Re: Protests during the National Anthem
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2020, 03:40:34 AM »
Ricky,
Of course it is worse. But rather than a glib comment or deed what can we do to ensure better police management? We’ve not heard much constructive comentary coming from the NFL. Honoring the flag affirms our support for our constitution, for equal rights and justice. Protesting at that moment, seems to me counter productive to a righteous cause.

Online ricky

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7352
  • Karma: +116/-114
Re: Protests during the National Anthem
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2020, 09:43:11 AM »
Ricky,
Of course it is worse. But rather than a glib comment or deed what can we do to ensure better police management? We’ve not heard much constructive comentary coming from the NFL. Honoring the flag affirms our support for our constitution, for equal rights and justice. Protesting at that moment, seems to me counter productive to a righteous cause.

Where to start? Why conflate these two issues? To muddy the waters and change the discussion to a different topic, rather than confront a very sensitive and deep seated problem that makes people very uncomfortable. Several high profile NFL players have weighed in on this issue, including J.J. Watt, Derrick Carr and even the untested but highly touted Joe Burrow. Mike Florio, a lawyer, is flat out calling this behavior murder. So, why bring up the protests during the anthems- which is what they were. There was NOBODY protesting the anthem, the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. That was nonsense meant to distract and confuse people, and get them talking about a non-issue (IMO). Rather than focusing on the point of the protest, which was to point out the racial disparity in treatment of individuals with (allegedly) equal rights by the police, the issue became "disrespecting the anthem and spitting on the flag and hating America". Are things getting better or worse? People calling police because: a black kid is cutting someone's lawn in white neighborhood; a black kid is selling bottles of water 'without a permit'; an eight year old black kid allegedly touched a (white) woman inappropriately in a mini-mart, but it turned out (seen on surveillance video) that his back back brushed her buttocks accidentally while he walked past her with his mom; the swimming pool party fiasco in McKinney, Texas, where police were called to a swimming pool party in a upper class white neighborhood, and police pulled guns on unarmed teens who wearing swimsuits; the numerous shootings caught on video, which are all too common. Not to mention the little boy playing in a park with a toy gun, shot down within seconds of a police car pulling up within feet of him.
This is the issue we should be addressing- not roiling the waters with complaints about how someone protests police misconduct. This is becoming all too common- next, there will be those who challenge me with "Well, the next time you feel threatened, call Colin Kaepernick to help." Which totally misses the point. This isn't about hating police officers- this is about police officers flagrantly and illegally mistreating and killing the people they're supposed to protect. And these people are overwhelmingly non-white.
Also, please don't bring up the Michael Brown case in Ferguson, Missouri. After a thorough investigation, the officer in that case acted to protect his life. However, the police department of Ferguson was determined to have spent and inordinate amount of time and effort fining minorities for extremely minor violations, with the threat of jail time if they didn't pay. A systemic extra tax for not being white.
What can be done? Nothing, as long as people want to ignore the problem and complain about peripheral issues. Because that is much preferable than trying to delve into one's true feelings about race, rather than simply repeating, "I'm not racist" while our actions and lack of actions make these outrages possible.

Another player has added his outrage over this latest incident. Not that it will matter. Because this is a problem with human nature.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/05/30/andy-dalton-decries-inexcusable-and-horrific-treatment-of-george-floyd-and-others/
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 09:47:01 AM by ricky »
"My hopes are not always realized, but I always hope." Ovid

Online The GM

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3455
  • Karma: +91/-9
Re: Protests during the National Anthem
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2020, 10:13:36 AM »
So, a police officer kneeling on someone's neck for almost nine minutes, killing him, is worse than taking a knee during the anthem to protest actions like these?

The County autopsy revealed that George Floyd didnt die as a direct result of the kneeing.   He didn't die from asfixiation (spell) or damage to his trachea.   He died from underlying conditions. (heart issues, diabetes and possible intoxication.)     It doesn't mean the kneeing wasn't a contributing factor, but it wasn't the major factor on why he died.  what people don't know is there were three officers kneeing on him.  one at the neck, one on his back and one on his legs to restrain him.  You cant see the other 2 because of the vehicle.  It will be interesting to see what he did to require that type of restraint.

It doesnt mean the officers are free and clear.  He/They will still likely go through the court process for several severe charges (third degree murder, civil rights violations...)     

The family is having another autopsy done.   

« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 11:20:10 AM by The GM »

Online scoremore

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1718
  • Karma: +30/-8
Re: Protests during the National Anthem
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2020, 11:03:54 AM »
Might have been other health factors that contributed to his death.  Regardless this was straight up murder as far as I am concerned.  As far as protest they are justified.  Black or White we are all shocked and outraged by this. That is a far cry from looting and burning down the city.  Antifa is the group that is agitating the situation.  They should be called out but guess that's politically incorrect.  Radical anarchists.  When the mayor tells the police to stand down and let riots and looting go unchecked is also a problem.  Just encourages more.  The poor people of the community are the ones who suffer the most.  Horrible situation and the last thing this country needs right now.

Offline RT

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4169
  • Karma: +84/-81
Re: Protests during the National Anthem
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2020, 11:27:13 AM »
The masses continued to get played. Covid-19 is running out of steam so back to the old reliable racism card, it works every time.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/leaders-say-riot-damage-not-caused-by-minnesotans/ar-BB14Omod?ocid=spartanntp

Online ricky

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7352
  • Karma: +116/-114
Re: Protests during the National Anthem
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2020, 12:30:46 PM »
So, a police officer kneeling on someone's neck for almost nine minutes, killing him, is worse than taking a knee during the anthem to protest actions like these?

The County autopsy revealed that George Floyd dint die as a direct result of the kneeing.   He didn't die from asfixiation (spell) or damage to his trachea.   He died from underlying conditions. (heart issues, and possible intoxication.)     It doesn't mean the kneeing wasn't a contributing factor, but it wasn't the major factor on why he died.  what people don't know is there were three officers kneeing on him.  on at the neck, one on his back and one on his legs to restrain him.  You cant see the other 2 because of the vehicle.

It doesnt mean the officers are free and clear.  He/They will still likely go through the court process for several severe charges on many levels.

First, thanks for not taking the original bait and switch of protests during the anthem. I'm aware of the multiple officers kneeling on Floyd, and the report by the coroner. Here is the article:

https://www.mystateline.com/news/national/medical-examiner-no-evidence-george-floyd-died-of-strangulation/

The family is going to bring in an outside expert to do a second autopsy, because they don't trust the local coroner, which seems apt, since he felt it necessary to cast doubt by adding in "and any potential intoxicants in his system", apparently pre-judging the toxicology report:

https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/ex-nyc-medical-examiner-to-perform-autopsy-on-george-floyd/

I also saw that there were other officers kneeling on Floyd. Which raises a very simple question: why were they all kneeling on him? There was no apparent reason for this; why not just put him in the back of a patrol car, buckle him in and wait? And why kneel on his neck for almost nine minutes, three of which he was apparently unconscious? Don't you find all this perhaps a bit- excessive? And the guy was repeatedly saying he couldn't breathe; bystanders were also concerned about his health. The police officers were more interested in "crowd control" than Floyd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMGUAHBFmjk

This was a deadly abuse of power. To say he would have died anyway of something else is true. But the situation greatly contributed to his death. So, a police officer kneels on someone's neck for almost nine minutes, but the person had underlying health issues. That doesn't make the action any more defensible or understandable or legitimize that behavior. Apparently, part of the training of this officer was that prolonged behavior like his was likely to cause problems, and shouldn't be used in restraining a suspect. This is part of the problem- that non-white suspects are routinely treated very differently than white suspects. Here is a study on this issue:

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/police-officer-shootings-gun-violence-racial-bias-crime-data/595528/

What we need is to recognize this as a problem and address it head on. This won't be easy, since we don't like talking about race since it immediately gets swept up in side issues. Similar to what is being attempted in this thread.





"My hopes are not always realized, but I always hope." Ovid

Online ricky

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7352
  • Karma: +116/-114
Re: Protests during the National Anthem
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2020, 12:37:22 PM »
The masses continued to get played. Covid-19 is running out of steam so back to the old reliable racism card, it works every time.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/leaders-say-riot-damage-not-caused-by-minnesotans/ar-BB14Omod?ocid=spartanntp

So, at least 100,000 dead from Covid-19 is "the masses continue[d] to get  played"? How so? And "back to the old reliable racism card" is a very loaded statement, IMO. So, please explain both these statements further. I have my own opinions of these comments, and even went back and deleted some rather inflammatory rhetoric, but I'll keep those to myself and give you a chance to expand on these statements before commenting further.

Upon further review, the article you linked to posits that most of the protesters aren't from Minneapolis. No evidence offered, just another baseless charge of "outside agitators", something that was very common back in the mid-60's, when the nation experienced those "long, hot summers" of rioting across the nation for several years. But, exactly how is this a "race card"? This is just another attempt to distract from the problem- that non-whites are treated far differently, and usually much more harshly by police. Why is that? How can it be ended? How do we go about solving problems, rather than ignoring them or denying any problem exists?

Just found this at CheeseheadTV. Thoughtful, insightful and intelligent responses to the death of George Floyd. Perhaps we could all learn something from reading and thinking about these comments:

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/packers-players-provide-thought-provoking-responses-to-crisis-in-minneapolis-551
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 01:23:29 PM by ricky »
"My hopes are not always realized, but I always hope." Ovid




Offline Premontre1969

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 91
  • Karma: +5/-9
Re: Protests during the National Anthem
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2020, 04:56:25 PM »
I was angered at the police killing of George Floyd and encouraged players to speak out on the issue of police brutality against the black community, rather than protest it during the anthem.

The collective anger of the country has led to many protest gatherings. Antifa and criminals have highjacked these lawful protests to loot and destroy. My heart goes out to our law enforcement officers who are often abused and injured upholding law and order. Patrick Underwood, a federal officer was shot and killed in Oakland. I’m afraid that the name of one black man ‘George Floyd’ will be long remembered while the name of another, ‘Patrick Underwood’ will not matter.

Let’s not give anarchy another opportunity to highjack peaceful protest and disrespect our social contract. I encourage law enforcement to rise above the code of brotherhood and police their own.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 05:36:42 PM by Premontre1969 »

Online ricky

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7352
  • Karma: +116/-114
Re: Protests during the National Anthem
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2020, 05:57:39 PM »
https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/09/police-violence-against-black-men-rare-heres-what-data-actually-say/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Lemoine

https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/04/16/000-people-in-the-us-are-killed-every-year-in-police-shootings-how-many-are-preventable/

https://www.dailywire.com/news/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler

OK, so police kill twice as many blacks as whites. Break that down as a percentage of population. That a lot of these shootings are justified is undeniable. What is also undeniable is that unarmed black men are being killed by police who are overreacting. The race of the officer is irrelevant- these are the people who are supposed to protect us, not oppress us or have us end up dead because you were stopped for a broken taillight; or not having a licence plate on the front and back of your vehicle; or playing with a toy gun in a park, or trying to pass bad currency.
Yet these did occur. As far as your latest attempt to whitewash police behavior, cherry picking cases and pointing out how this was justified in that particular case is interesting, but irrelevant. We have a case where a police officer knelt on the neck of a suspect for almost nine minutes, including three minutes when the suspect was non-responsive. The suspect repeatedly said he couldn't breathe, begged for his life, and the officer continued to kneel on his neck. Trying to obfuscate this with 'sometimes the suspect deserves it' is irrelevant to this case. The suspect was unarmed, handcuffed, there were four police officers there, and they did nothing to defuse the situation or take any care in the treatment of the suspect. Stick with the case at hand, and please don't try to throw out red herrings. Two citations, two strikes.
"My hopes are not always realized, but I always hope." Ovid

Online ricky

  • HOF Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7352
  • Karma: +116/-114
Re: Protests during the National Anthem
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2020, 06:05:15 PM »
I was angered at the police killing of George Floyd and encouraged players to speak out on the issue of police brutality against the black community, rather than protest it during the anthem.

The collective anger of the country has led to many protest gatherings. Antifa and criminals have highjacked these lawful protests to loot and destroy. My heart goes out to our law enforcement officers who are often abused and injured upholding law and order. Patrick Underwood, a federal officer was shot and killed in Oakland. I’m afraid that the name of one black man ‘George Floyd’ will be long remembered while the name of another, ‘Patrick Underwood’ will not matter.

Let’s not give anarchy another opportunity to highjack peaceful protest and disrespect our social contract. I encourage law enforcement to rise above the code of brotherhood and police their own.

Your intentions are good, but you still don't "get it". You blame antifa and criminals (OK, criminals as a group are to be condemned by everyone)
for the riots becoming violent. But where is the proof? As far as the shooting of Patrick Underwood, that is also a tragedy. But at this time, there is no evidence of who did this or why. Can we jump to conclusions? Sure. We should wait and see when a police officer kills an suspect; but if a public servant is killed, then just blaming someone you don't like is acceptable. Here's an article on the shooting:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/05/31/federal-protection-services-officer-killed-in-oakland-drive-by-shooting-identified/

In the meantime, lets take a look at who is inciting this violence, because there is suspicion on both left and right agitators:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/31/us/george-floyd-protests-white-supremacists-antifa.html

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/30/officials-blame-differing-groups-of-outsiders-for-violence-across-u-s/

It would be nice if police officers held each other accountable and worked toward treating all citizens with respect, civility and restraint. As far as criminals go? Go the route that Sean Connery put forth in "The Untouchables". Paraphrasing: "If he wants to fight, use your club; if he pulls a knife, you pull a gun; if he pulls a gun, he's dead."
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 06:15:14 PM by ricky »
"My hopes are not always realized, but I always hope." Ovid